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Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mintcar)
Why do you need cyber or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat (related skills)?

And that's exactly what I was trying to answer. It is because combat in SR is run with rules which require a game mechanic like Combat Pool to allow for choice, to describe concentration (of your natural talent, if you wish) on different aspects of combat. And, as was explained, logic requires Combat Pool to be applicable to all Combat skill tests even outside of actual combat.

Similarly the way decking is handled requires such a pool (the Hacking Pool), as does rigging (the Control Pool). The former is available when you are in a certain, clearly separate realm (the Matrix), the latter is available whenever rigging through a VCR.

No other aspect of the game requires such a system. The situations where physical, social, technical and knowledge skills are used are far more abstracted than combat, decking or rigging; they are often plain skill tests against a set TN and the amount of successes tells you how well you succeeded, or there might be one additional layer of "resisting", an opponent's test, such as Perception vs. Stealth, but it's still just two tests which are not affected by any outside aspects. Combat isn't that simple, you need to choose between a huge number of possible actions and they all affect each other.

If SR handled sneaking around with a large number of options (Low Crawl, Crawl, Crouch, Scan for Better Route, Follow the Shadows) as well as stages of vigilance and different perception options for the spotter, with a large number of skills determining how well you succeed in all those options, a Sneaking Pool might be in order. Similarly if Electronics were broken down into several sub-skills and using them were as detailed as decking is, an Electronics Pool would be called for.

But that isn't the case, and it remains a fact that only the few special situations call for a pool. In the wholly abstracted system of sneaking or socializing or repairing things, such a pool would only server to double the amount of dice rolled and to screw up game balance by often also doubling your chances of success.
mintcar
Yes I understand.

What you are saying now is much like what I was saying in the beginning of this argument. I still have to make some changes eather to my "fluff" or the rules to make sense of it.

I think I will be giving all characters Hacking and Control Pool in the future. Allowing for the use of Control Pool in regular vehicles and Hacking Pool when using a tortoice. If you dont have a VCR or a cyber deck, the pools will be much smaller anyway. And that way these pools will be more in line with Combat Pool. I dont think Iīll impliment a universal Task Pool though. Because, as you say, there would be no reason for it. As I have repeatedly said: Using dice pools in single skill tests contradict their purpouse. (Except in the very limited example of shooting a gun in a target range, wich Iīll view as a bug in the system)
tisoz
It's not just the shooting a gun at a target example, there are numerous similar examples. They involve any example you could use a skill with a pool out side of combat. It comes down to why should I be better at something because I'm engaged in combat?

Another example, a magician trying to cast a spell, shouldn't need a friend to take a swing at him so he can use his spell pool to cast a Makeover spell.
mintcar
When casting a spell you still have to account for drain, so the pool has some use there.
James McMurray
A rigger shouldn't be able to take hair pin turns at high speeds because he is in combat. A decker shouldn't be better at downloading becaues he has some ICE trying to fry his brain.

I can't think of a single time when not being able to use combat pool outside of combat makes any sense.
mintcar
Iīm bailing out. The thread has reached the point when new posters donīt read the entire thing. Thanks to all who took this conversation with me. I needed to straighten some things out.

>>edit<< no intention of being rude there, James. Just that I got what I came for, and thereīs a risk of having to repeat myself if I keep posting.
James McMurray
No problem. I just find it confusing that earlier you said that you do use pools all the time, and then just now you said that it doesn't make sense. I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you flip-flopped.
tisoz
QUOTE (mintcar)
When casting a spell you still have to account for drain, so the pool has some use there.

So why would being in combat make it easier to resist drain?
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (mintcar)
Iīm bailing out. The thread has reached the point when new posters donīt read the entire thing. Thanks to all who took this conversation with me. I needed to straighten some things out.

The replies have been pretty straight forward, dude. Everyone is trying to understand why you have an issue with dice pools and your explanations have been rather unusual. No offense intended to you, but there isn't an issue with the game mechanics. The dice pool system works just fine. If you feel the need to "overhaul" the game mechanics to suit your understanding of an abstract system, then do so. For someone whose played the game for 10 years though, it seems a strange time to develop issues with dice pools. For the record, there is no need to create pools for every skill type... unless it'll ease your troubled mind, that is.

mintcar
Iīm sorry my arguments have been confusing. This is because Iīm changing the way Iīve been looking at the game for ten years. Not the easiest time to be completely straight forward smile.gif To straighten things out I will go through my train of thoughts.

For ten years I have had some trouble understanding when you were supposed to use dice pools. In those years I developed the conclusion that you only used them in tight situations that required more detail in the game. To allow for choices as Austere put it, or to add tactics like I put it, same thing in this case. The argument Iīve had and the things pointed out to me in this thread has made me realize that there are situations outside of these bounderies that require use of dice pools because it creates to much trouble not to allow using them. I now agree that the simplest and best way of looking at it is that you use combat pool for all combat skill tests, matrix for all matrix test and so forth, no matter what the situation. I still think thereīs a reason thereīs not a dice pool for every skill type though, like you say. So ideally you wouldnīt use dice pools for single skill tests (when the pool is not in active use, when you donīt make any choices to allocate it). You do that because the alternetive is worse. Any other thing that Iīve said can be dismissed as rantings.

Crimson Jack: Iīm pretty sure I never suggested creating a pool for every skill type.

tisoz: Iīve never claimed that spell pool could not be used for all sorcery tests. I was pointing out that the pool is devided between two tests in that case, and so the pool is used in an active way unlike with the shooting range example. Because the pool is in active use when spellcasting, I never had a problem with it. (Well, in the beginning I did)
mintcar
Itīs very easy to get missunderstood when you have something specific on your mind and your limited to text messenges in a language that is not native to you. And thatīs a bit irritating so forgive my bitchiness.
Crimson Jack
Minty,

This statement made me think that you were going to start creating pools for everything and everyone:

QUOTE
I think I will be giving all characters Hacking and Control Pool in the future. Allowing for the use of Control Pool in regular vehicles and Hacking Pool when using a tortoice. If you dont have a VCR or a cyber deck, the pools will be much smaller anyway. And that way these pools will be more in line with Combat Pool.


Despite the fact that the book states this regarding Control Pool (p.44, BBB):

QUOTE
The Control Pool is used by riggers to augment tests strictly relating to controlling a rigged vehicle...


And this, regarding Hacking Pool (p.44, BBB):

QUOTE
Only characters with a cyberdeck can use a Hacking Pool.


The reason why riggers and deckers receive these pools is to reflect the fact that they're more proficient at handling vehicles and the matrix than your standard slot. Turtling through the matrix should rely on only one's Computer skill, as that is the only skill that will help them. Driving a car should rely only on one's Car skill, for the same reasons. They don't have the additional technology to give them the boost that a pool supplies.

With your rationale, there should be an plethora of pools for all of the skills. That was my point, sans sarcasm.
mintcar
I think that the game would be made more fun if everybody got their base reaction as Control Pool. You can still participate in vehicle combat even though you donīt have a VCR. In fact most participants in a vehicle combat will be without one in my games. There is still a need for spicing things up with some choices and tactics even though your not top of the line. As a rigger you will have more control pool, mighty sensors, more initiative and a bunch of other things that make you superior.

Hacking pool for turtles might be going to far.

(this was one of the rantings, by the way)
Crimson Jack
So, are you going to boost the rigger's Control Pool even higher then, to compensate for the fact that you're boosting everyone who can drive a car... regardless of whether they have the tech to give them the boost?
Da9iel
Meh. Base reaction control pool pales in comparison to the -TN for a VCR. Riggers also get the +2 to reaction per VCR level. Some meager control pool for non-riggers makes sense. Also makes the sudden bullet dodging capability of riggers a little less sudden and magikal.
Xirces
The pools are functions of specific pieces of equipment not character types. Having possession of a cyberdeck gives a hacking pool - if everyone in the group wants a hacking pool they could always share ("it's my turn to have a hacking pool"). Bit more difficult with a VCR, but still - it's the equipment that gives the pool, not the character type. This isn't D&D where only deckers can use decks - it's the deck that causes a character to be a decker and the VCR makes a rigger, not the other way round. It makes this whole argument slightly pointless.

Admittedly this does cause problems with some of the edges and flaws (If you spend 14000Y on a cheap-o deck you become a decker so can take the matrix flaws and get a few edges on the cheap...).
mintcar
I donīt share that opinion. Hacking Pool and Control Pool are not functions of equipment only, they are also functions of your attributes, specificly intelligence and reaction. You just cant use them without the equipment.
Xirces
QUOTE (mintcar)
I donīt share that opinion. Hacking Pool and Control Pool are not functions of equipment only, they are also functions of your attributes, specificly intelligence and reaction. You just cant use them without the equipment.

Yes, but (no, but yeah but no. I don't know what you're talking about, I wasn't even there...</Vicky Pollard>) you only GET the pools if you have the equipment. Only Riggers get a control pool and although I don't think Rigger is defined anywhere in the CharGen rules (I may be wrong) the only reasonable definition is - "A person with a VCR" - therefore it's the VCR that creates/gives access to the pool. Simplistic, I know, but I can't rationalise it any other way.

Maybe you could define a rigger as someone who drives|rides|pilots a vehicle, in which case everyone can have the pool...
Kagetenshi
Er, no. The pools are functions of equipment, but not of equipment only… that's why they incorporate stats rather than just being equal to MPCP or VCR Rating*something.

The idea behind only allowing those with the gear to have the pool is that the tech acts as an enabler, making it easy enough that one's natural talent is more able to be brought to bear.

~J
mintcar
Xirces: I know the game wants you to get a VCR if your going to drive and a deck if you are going to do the matrix. But the game allows for participation in these parts of the game even though you donīt have that equipment. Iīm thinking MY game might be more fun if everybody participating in vehicle combat had some pool dice to distribute. I think riggers are far to superior anyway. Even if you send ten lone star cruisers after a rigger they wont even break a sweat. In my particular game this change will be for the better.
Jrayjoker
I try to think of the pools as resulting from training and experience as well as natural abilities (stats). This rationalle is applicable to the combat pool for everyone and the magic pool for those who can astrally perceive. The fact that you need a deck to truly experience the matrix (physical damage as opposed to an image on a screen) can make the argument for the hacking pool working as a reult of training and experience, and the threat of death when getting dumped from a vehicle/drone is enough to rationalize the conntrol pool for me.

I can fight somone, but I have no training to do so, so now pool. I can post to a forum, but I can't take a hit from the IC guarding it, so no pool. I can read a spell formula, but I can't cast it, so no pool. I can drive my car agressively, but I can't feel the road or the gravel kicking up onto my windshield, so no pool.
Jrayjoker
Deleted double post.

wobble.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mintcar)
Xirces: I know the game wants you to get a VCR if your going to drive and a deck if you are going to do the matrix. But the game allows for participation in these parts of the game even though you donīt have that equipment. Iīm thinking MY game might be more fun if everybody participating in vehicle combat had some pool dice to distribute. I think riggers are far to superior anyway. Even if you send ten lone star cruisers after a rigger they wont even break a sweat. In my particular game this change will be for the better.

Aside from the fact that at least one of those LS cruisers should have a Rigger, what with the insanely low price of a VCR-1…

~J
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (mintcar)
Xirces: I know the game wants you to get a VCR if your going to drive and a deck if you are going to do the matrix. But the game allows for participation in these parts of the game even though you donīt have that equipment. Iīm thinking MY game might be more fun if everybody participating in vehicle combat had some pool dice to distribute. I think riggers are far to superior anyway. Even if you send ten lone star cruisers after a rigger they wont even break a sweat. In my particular game this change will be for the better.

Again, you're free to do whatever you want in your game. But you should know that this very liberal interpretation of the rules and this would definitely be a house rule. I guess I don't understand why you don't encourage someone to play a rigger if they're interested in vehicular combat so much. It stands to reason that you get one of your players to make the thing that they think is so "fun", as you put it.

I guess I just appreciate the way the rules are written when it comes to this issue, as they make sense without the need IMO for twinking.
Crimson Jack
Mintcar,

I just noticed your post in the "Campaign Tone" thread:

QUOTE
Orc rigger Kurt Miller from CalFree. Has a military background from Pueblo, and does spy footage of famous people for CalHot sims as a side gig. No goodie two shoes but prefers not to kill people unnecessarily.


You already have a rigger in your group. Why the need to give everyone Control Pools when you already have this angle covered? I'm dying for this answer. ohplease.gif
mintcar
He needs some competition from those lone star cruisers. And I would like him to be able to steal cars and drive them like a son of a bitch too.

Iīm propably going to let riggers use the reaction modifier from their VCR (but not the other things) when driving with a data jack (the virtual dash board). I donīt know how Iīm going to explain it, but it seems they should have some edge when driving regular vehicles too.

This is rather of topic.
Kanada Ten
Not all cars come with a datajack port. In fact, of those listed, only those with rigger adaptation do.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (mintcar)
This is rather off topic.

Hardly at all. Its relevant to the question of how dice pools are handled.
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