Full Version: Mage vs. Shaman
I picked shaman but sometimes I perfer the mage. they both have their ups and downs. I dont have much room to talk cause Im useally a deckhead or rig jocky. but when I gm I see the two are both quite equal. nothings funner watching to diffrent caster PC's get into a fight over whos better. it makes me smile
I´m a GM and I picked the shaman because most of the times when I dream of some day playing shadowrun myself, I dream of playing a shaman. But if I had to chose today I´d pick a mage, because I´d want to draw hermetic circles with a cig in my mouth, like I´m John Constantine. So it could have gone either way.
Mages almost entirely for in-character reasons. They are the people who have adapted the best to magic in the modern world. Shamans are still stuck in old & moldy traditions while the mages push the edge.
Plus it's cool to have several elementals on call.
Plus it's cool to have several elementals on call.
Picked Mage. Mainly because my main character is mage.. and I enjoy using elemental to sustain spells. Some runs my group pays me the expences to sustain their choise of spells on different members.
As someone mentioned the shaman is sometimes more fun ... because the roleplay restriction gives a kind of focus... sometimes restriction gives more room. Maybe because its forcing you out of old roleplaying habits.
As someone mentioned the shaman is sometimes more fun ... because the roleplay restriction gives a kind of focus... sometimes restriction gives more room. Maybe because its forcing you out of old roleplaying habits.
shaman .... It's for winners!
Anyway nothing better than an 8ft troll cat shaman!
torz x
Anyway nothing better than an 8ft troll cat shaman!
torz x
Play an Elven Wheel-Magician. Then you get to summon elementals and nature-spirits. And annoy your GM endlessly with the bizarre time/place bonuses.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Shaman all the way! I've played my share of Mages, but they never have inspired me as much as the shamanic ones. Especially my Leopard Shaman. |
I thought you immoral elves did not think to highly of them shamans...
i voted mage.
but if i ever ended up playing shaman i would go coyote
nobody orders the trickster around
but if i ever ended up playing shaman i would go coyote
nobody orders the trickster around
I voted mage. There's plenty of roleplaying flavor for them ever since the SOTA books came out, and I prefer the rational approach they take to magic.
No preference one way or the other, tbh.
My longest-running character was a mage.
One of my favourite and most memorable characters was a Houngan (of Ghede, when Awakenings came out and finally provided official vodoun guidelines). High Charisma Cajun Ork with a sharp suit happy memories.
My longest-running character was a mage.
One of my favourite and most memorable characters was a Houngan (of Ghede, when Awakenings came out and finally provided official vodoun guidelines). High Charisma Cajun Ork with a sharp suit
happy memories.
who says a shaman can't draw magic circles with a cig in his mouth???
i'm typically the gm in my group but every now and than we rotate so other people can feel how it feels to gm and so i can't play. i play a raccoon shaman who went to mit&t and has a chaos theory view to his magic. his medicine lodge is a magic circle in design. still works as a lodge, doesn't give him any bonuses...it's just how he sees his magic...no one says that a medicine lodge has to be a hut with herbs and dead animal skins...it can be whatever works for the shaman.
i'm typically the gm in my group but every now and than we rotate so other people can feel how it feels to gm and so i can't play. i play a raccoon shaman who went to mit&t and has a chaos theory view to his magic. his medicine lodge is a magic circle in design. still works as a lodge, doesn't give him any bonuses...it's just how he sees his magic...no one says that a medicine lodge has to be a hut with herbs and dead animal skins...it can be whatever works for the shaman.
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| I thought you immoral elves did not think to highly of them shamans... |
We're not all carbon copies of each other. There are always exceptions to every rule, especially if one is immoral.
One big advantage hermatics have over shamans is that their magic is far, far more subtle (though neither have any way of casting a concealed spell... ugh.) The shaman's mask cuts 2 points off the TN to spot a spell being cast/elemental being summoned, and casting with a totem advantage cuts off another 1. If you're going for subtle magic a high-level hermatic initiate is the only way to go.
But those libraries are so damn expensive...
But those libraries are so damn expensive...
I picked Shaman. i think they have more personality.
Well, rather, they have personality different from my own. I'm majoring in Physics and Computer Science. and, that's studied the sams way a mage studies magic. So, i guess i just like playing something a little different from what i really am. That's the point of ROLEplaying, neh?
Well, rather, they have personality different from my own. I'm majoring in Physics and Computer Science. and, that's studied the sams way a mage studies magic. So, i guess i just like playing something a little different from what i really am. That's the point of ROLEplaying, neh?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| i voted mage. but if i ever ended up playing shaman i would go coyote nobody orders the trickster around |
Well said.
Coyote is my personal favorit totum, can't imagin why. (insert evil laugh here)I've played both mages and shamans, and in all honesty I like shamans better. Not having to have three seperate libraries and being able to conjur on the spot is nice. I do also love the flavor of a totum.
Three of my favs:
Coyote shaman modeled after "the shadow"
Cat shaman. Fashion model by day, fighting against her former home of azland by night. Favorit spell:overstime centered on genital region.
Phonix shaman: Former MIT&T student searching for a cause, and something to burn down.
Shaman. More spontaneously capable, without all that pesky long-range pre-planning gobbledegook. Freewheelin' it, yo.
Shamans, one word: channeling
Quick question though, in MiTS, says that you can redo the summoning for an elemental w/ a mage. Do you have to pay karma again? because if not, that's a BIG plus, because elementals have A LOT more abilities. But it doesn't specifically say.
Quick question though, in MiTS, says that you can redo the summoning for an elemental w/ a mage. Do you have to pay karma again? because if not, that's a BIG plus, because elementals have A LOT more abilities. But it doesn't specifically say.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Quick question though, in MiTS, says that you can redo the summoning for an elemental w/ a mage. Do you have to pay karma again? because if not, that's a BIG plus, because elementals have A LOT more abilities. But it doesn't specifically say. |
Karma? Since when did channeling or summoning elementals cost Karma?
summoning elementals takes karma to bind them. Chanelling uses up all owed services.
spirits don't cost karma to summon
spirits don't cost karma to summon
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 11 2005, 02:45 AM) |
| summoning elementals takes karma to bind them. |
They do?? They only cost ritual materials, not Karma. You pay Karma to have them bound to a spot for a year and a day for astral patrol, but that's about it.
SR3 p186 for summoning elementals. No Karma cost involved, as far as I can see.
MitS p98 for paying Karma to bind an elemental guard to a site.
So what are you getting if you purchase them w/ spell points at chargen? A guard? Or do you get services?
What? Where is the karma cost for summoning them in the BBB?
Now just bear in mind, I've only recently switched over to SR3, so I do miss somethings. But I'm pretty sure that it costs the elementals force to summon it. Has that been dropped? Could've sworn I read that the other dy in SR3/
If I'm wrong, please correct me with a big stick. My hermetic mage player will thank you, and so will I.
Anybody got a quote handy? I'm on graveyards.
If I'm wrong, please correct me with a big stick. My hermetic mage player will thank you, and so will I.
Anybody got a quote handy? I'm on graveyards.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Mar 11 2005, 02:48 AM) |
| So what are you getting if you purchase them w/ spell points at chargen? |
Shafted.
AFAIK, it didn't cost any Karma to summon elementals in SR2, either. Not sure about SR1.
Now I hope I'm right, other wise I'm losing IQ points by the second here!
damn...i just did it for the first time 'cause i wasn't really thinking I guess. How many services to you get on those ones? I assumed it was at my beck and call for a year or something.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| damn...i just did it for the first time 'cause i wasn't really thinking I guess. How many services to you get on those ones? I assumed it was at my beck and call for a year or something. |
You get no services. You get one more service for every 2 spell points you use for that purpose. I.E. A force 6 Air elemental with 2 services costs 6 spell points for its force, and 4 spell points for its services. SR3 p55. Yup, it really blows.
Well Hell, no karma cost, screw it , change my vote to mage.
<goes and hits self with stick> *bad shaman boy bad! read more books shaman boy!*
<goes and hits self with stick> *bad shaman boy bad! read more books shaman boy!*
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 11 2005, 02:41 AM) |
| Anybody got a quote handy? I'm on graveyards. |
Here it is:
| QUOTE |
| Summoning Elementals The conjuring ritual takes a number of hours equal to the elemental’s Force and is an Exclusive Action. At the end of this time, make a Conjuring Test against a target number equal to the Force of the spirit. Extra dice may be added to this test from spirit foci, and the mage may set aside dice to help resist Drain. If the ritual is interrupted, it automatically fails and the summoner must resist Drain. If the Conjuring Test is successful, the conjuring material is used up and the elemental materializes before its summoner, outside the hermetic circle. The number of successes is the number of services the elemental owes its summoner. If there are no successes, no elemental appears, but all materials purchased for the summoning are used up. Regardless of whether or not an elemental appears, the mage must make a Drain Resistance Test using Charisma dice against a target number equal to the desired Force of the elemental. Extra dice may be added to this test through the use of spirit foci or allocated from the Conjuring Test. See Conjuring Drain, p. 187. If the Drain kills or knocks out the summoner, the elemental becomes uncontrolled. Make a Force (6) Test for the elemental. If the spirit generates at least one success, it recognizes the window of opportunity and flees immediately, vanishing from the physical and astral planes. If it does not generate any successes, the elemental attacks its former master, heedless of any defenses that may be present. If its master is already dead, the elemental goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living beings. It does not stop until it is killed, banished or controlled by another mage. Binding Elementals An elemental that owes services to a mage is bound and treats the mage as its master. A character can bind a number of elementals equal to his Charisma at one time. If a mage is at the limit and wishes to conjure an additional elemental, one of the currently bound ones can be released from its obligations. The elemental simply departs. A master need not use all the services of an elemental at once. At the time of its summoning, an elemental is bound to respond to calls from its master. The elemental then departs, vanishing from the physical and astral plane altogether until it is called. To use the services of an elemental, take an Exclusive Complex Action and call it to appear. The elemental appears before its master in astral form. More than one elemental may be called with the same Complex Action if they are of the same element (earth, fire and so on). The master may then command it as a Simple Action. A called elemental stays in astral space by preference. Only if ordered to do so does it assume physical form. If twenty-four hours pass while an elemental is present in astral or physical form, even if it is performing a different service, an additional service is used up. This does not apply while a bound spirit is awaiting its master’s call, only when it is actually present. When called, an elemental must remain within a distance of its master equal to the total of its summoner’s Willpower, Charisma and Magic, times ten, in meters. An elemental will not leave this radius unless ordered to do so as a Remote Service (see Remote Service, p. 187) or placed on “stand by.” If the elemental is somehow forced out of this radius, any remaining services it may owe are canceled; it is still bound to fulfill its last command, however. The summoner of an elemental can order the spirit to obey another character, magical or mundane, as its master. This costs one service. Mundanes cannot use elementals to cast spells, but otherwise receive the same services as a mage: Aid Sorcery for spell defense, Physical Service and so on. Elemental bodyguards are rare and expensive, but they do protect politicians, corporate execs, crime bosses and other big shots. If an elemental is present when its master is killed or knocked unconscious, the elemental becomes uncontrolled. |
Ironically, our Raccoon shaman thought the same thing, and was wondering why I was "burning Karma" when I was summoning Force 1 Elementals to sustain my spells. She was shocked when I told her. She hasn't played SR at all until SR3.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
You get no services. You get one more service for every 2 spell points you use for that purpose. I.E. A force 6 Air elemental with 2 services costs 6 spell points for its force, and 4 spell points for its services. SR3 p55. Yup, it really blows. |
Damnit. So If I only paid 4 points for a force 4 elemental, then as soon as I get in game that sucker is outta there? That's jacked up.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| Damnit. So If I only paid 4 points for a force 4 elemental, then as soon as I get in game that sucker is outta there? That's jacked up. |
It wouldn't nearly be so bad if you could apply spell points as Karma for an ally spirit. You'd lose a point of magic, but you could get a spirit with "unlimited services" as it were.
Thanks hahnsoo, gonne go find out what I was smoking now.
So the only advantage that a shaman has is that they can summon on the fly, where a heremetic summons in advance, and it costs money. So why re-summon? Save some
? Find an earth elemental with a winning personality?
Of course, on the flip side, whe nthe mage summons up his pre-called elemental, he's already checked for his drain. Sad. Just got a little less excited about my gargoyle shaman. Oh well, there's always the UMT to fall back on!
So the only advantage that a shaman has is that they can summon on the fly, where a heremetic summons in advance, and it costs money. So why re-summon? Save some
? Find an earth elemental with a winning personality?Of course, on the flip side, whe nthe mage summons up his pre-called elemental, he's already checked for his drain. Sad. Just got a little less excited about my gargoyle shaman. Oh well, there's always the UMT to fall back on!
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 11 2005, 03:07 AM) |
| So the only advantage that a shaman has is that they can summon on the fly, where a heremetic summons in advance, and it costs money. So why re-summon? Save some ? Find an earth elemental with a winning personality? |
Two words: Great Form. You don't have to do another damn Invoking test.
It also depends on how you RP with spirits. Elementals have feelings, too. Alien and unfathomable feelings, but feelings nonetheless.
Well I did take the 'Spirit Affinity' edge, but the only spirit I've actually talked to so far was the hearth spirit at Underworld 93 (recently played Mercurial).
I think that G.F. elementals are a lot more impressive than their spirit counterparts. Having a city spirit do divination is nice (although I already have that), but there's just something about rumbling earthquakes and exploding fire hydrants that just says "kiss you hoop goodbye".
I think that G.F. elementals are a lot more impressive than their spirit counterparts. Having a city spirit do divination is nice (although I already have that), but there's just something about rumbling earthquakes and exploding fire hydrants that just says "kiss you hoop goodbye".
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| So why re-summon? Save some ? Find an earth elemental with a winning personality? |
It still costs nuyen in that you need conjuring materials equal to force, just as you need them upon initial summoning. Don't under estimate the value of a winning personality.
hahnsoo hit on one reason, if the mage knows invoking. But every conjuror has the number of spirits available limited by charisma. So the mage doesn't have to wait for an elemental to run out of services, or dismiss them early, to have a maximum number of elementals on hand with adequate services.
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE |
| I think that G.F. elementals are a lot more impressive than their spirit counterparts. Having a city spirit do divination is nice (although I already have that), but there's just something about rumbling earthquakes and exploding fire hydrants that just says "kiss you hoop goodbye". |
The ability of great form nature spirts to cross domains is pretty useful, too. It lets the shaman conjure just after sunrise/sunset and have a full complement of spirits available whereever he goes. Also gives them a limited ability to conjure ahead of time and recover from drain.
That's pretty much what I've been doing with the gargoyle Shaman I've been playing. He crashes just after dawn, summoning a few G.F.'s to gaurd his place (he's pissed off a lot of people lately), then crashes. Always tries to keep 2-4 on hand in the astral. Really no reason not too, as long as you can handle the drain.
Slightly off topic, what's up with some of the Metamagics lately? Sensing!? It's a cool idea, but does it really need to be a metamagic? Is it anywhere near on par with things like shielding, channeling, or even centering? And filtering having cleansing as a prerequisite!? To grades to be able to cast w/o background count, for a little while. Centering does that! And yes, filtering does it better, but not two grades worth of metamagic better!
I guess you could say that in some games, some are more helpful than others. But it seems they just made abilities like 'sensing' metamagics because they didn't know where else to put them.
Slightly off topic, what's up with some of the Metamagics lately? Sensing!? It's a cool idea, but does it really need to be a metamagic? Is it anywhere near on par with things like shielding, channeling, or even centering? And filtering having cleansing as a prerequisite!? To grades to be able to cast w/o background count, for a little while. Centering does that! And yes, filtering does it better, but not two grades worth of metamagic better!
I guess you could say that in some games, some are more helpful than others. But it seems they just made abilities like 'sensing' metamagics because they didn't know where else to put them.
Don't forget, I guess some people just run out of metamagics after a while. If you keep a character long enough (and initiate as a priority), maybe they're just sorta...looking for more metamagics, period/paragraph, to create and make available to people.
The thing that I really enjoy about metamagics is giving the character more abilities, but not necessarily more powerful. Channeling, invoking, shielding, centering, all good for a power boost.
But others like psychometry, sensing, masking(although it certainly has strong points), and divination are more neat abilities that add depth to the game, and give more roleplaying opportunities. It just bothers me that they have to be in the same group as some of the abilities that are really going to keep you alive, and are therefore very important to get while you still can.
I certainly don't have a better way. I just think that it's not quite balanced between the powers. And magic points only get you so much. Without metamagics, there's not that much difference between a 3rd grade initiate and a 10th, except kicking hoop at banishing spirits. Even casting high force spell isn't that big of a difference. Force 10 spell? Try rolling a 20 to learn a spell sometime.Not very easy.
But others like psychometry, sensing, masking(although it certainly has strong points), and divination are more neat abilities that add depth to the game, and give more roleplaying opportunities. It just bothers me that they have to be in the same group as some of the abilities that are really going to keep you alive, and are therefore very important to get while you still can.
I certainly don't have a better way. I just think that it's not quite balanced between the powers. And magic points only get you so much. Without metamagics, there's not that much difference between a 3rd grade initiate and a 10th, except kicking hoop at banishing spirits. Even casting high force spell isn't that big of a difference. Force 10 spell? Try rolling a 20 to learn a spell sometime.Not very easy.
fistandantilus3.0: Maybe house rule a variation on initiation as below would be a neat variation to try.
Initiation:
option 1-3: as MITS
option 4: 2 metamagic techniques, NO point of magic attribute
option 5: 1 metamagic technique, aura change, NO point of magic attribute
Personally, I agree -- there are a lot of metamagic techniques that are GREAT for building themes and roleplay, but absolutely not on par with some of the others for raw power and survival. Then again, they aren't crucial -- I still haven't taken centering, although it's the next one I'm after.. it's just I have to initiate and get rid of an involuntary geas first, so it's going to take a while (and I'm playing a 4th grade initiate at this point).
That being said, shielding is fun for adding roleplay and a measure of desperation. There's nothing quite like having your weak mage/weak shaman/magician-adept struggling to shield against a mage throwing force 10+ spells...
Edit: 10th grade initiates are much better at invoking great forms.
Initiation:
option 1-3: as MITS
option 4: 2 metamagic techniques, NO point of magic attribute
option 5: 1 metamagic technique, aura change, NO point of magic attribute
Personally, I agree -- there are a lot of metamagic techniques that are GREAT for building themes and roleplay, but absolutely not on par with some of the others for raw power and survival. Then again, they aren't crucial -- I still haven't taken centering, although it's the next one I'm after.. it's just I have to initiate and get rid of an involuntary geas first, so it's going to take a while (and I'm playing a 4th grade initiate at this point).
That being said, shielding is fun for adding roleplay and a measure of desperation. There's nothing quite like having your weak mage/weak shaman/magician-adept struggling to shield against a mage throwing force 10+ spells...
Edit: 10th grade initiates are much better at invoking great forms.
I don't really understand the problem. So what if every single Metamagic is not equal to every other one? Each one adds flavor, and individuality to the character. Sure there are some that get used more than others, but that doesn't make the lesser-used ones worthless.
Also remember that most of the Metamagics you (fistandantilus3.0) listed as being useful are not available to Adepts, whereas most (if not all) of the ones you listed as secondary are.
It all depends on your character. I'd rather see lots of choices, even of they are of disparate power levels, than see every single Mage be forced to take the exact same three of four Metamagics.
Also remember that most of the Metamagics you (fistandantilus3.0) listed as being useful are not available to Adepts, whereas most (if not all) of the ones you listed as secondary are.
It all depends on your character. I'd rather see lots of choices, even of they are of disparate power levels, than see every single Mage be forced to take the exact same three of four Metamagics.
And they have better Masking, Invoking, etc. Many metamagics are dependent on either your magic attribute or your initiate grade, both of which improve when you initiate. They have a higher Astral Pool too. Also, the TN for noticing magical skills is 4+Magic-Force, so a high-grade initiate can cast a force 6 manabolt at someone and stand a good chance of going unnoticed.
Speaking of Metamagics, I think Symbolic Linking is the unsung hero of the Metamagical world. Being able to find anyone or any thing with just a picture/favorite gun/blankie square isn't anything to sneeze at.
No argument from me. It makes extractions or assassinations a lot easier. Getting to a high grade is usually a prority to me.
It makes extractions or assassinations a lot easier. Getting to a high grade is usually a prority to me.
I've been running a game for a voudoon (Ghede) that just picked up Symbolic linking. Walks around with a clay voodoo doll that she also uses as her centering skill ('sculpting' the target). Scary.
Anywho, I'm not so much trying to say that any one power is secondary to another. Just the different applicable power. In different games, some powers are definitely going to be more powerful. Psychometry for a detective. Sensing in the outback of course. SYmbolic linking and just about anyone that really wants to frag with some one else. Etc.
I guess my gripe is just that I personally would like to be able to use some of the metamagics that are less "powerful" without missing out on something that's going to help keep you alive to use those other powers (centering, shielding). In the end, it all just comes down to how you play the character, what their interests, and needs are (sensing in the outback). I just don't agree with the same cost for such vastly different abilities. I like the scaled adpet powers better. more powerful = more points.
Anywho, I'm not so much trying to say that any one power is secondary to another. Just the different applicable power. In different games, some powers are definitely going to be more powerful. Psychometry for a detective. Sensing in the outback of course. SYmbolic linking and just about anyone that really wants to frag with some one else. Etc.
I guess my gripe is just that I personally would like to be able to use some of the metamagics that are less "powerful" without missing out on something that's going to help keep you alive to use those other powers (centering, shielding). In the end, it all just comes down to how you play the character, what their interests, and needs are (sensing in the outback). I just don't agree with the same cost for such vastly different abilities. I like the scaled adpet powers better. more powerful = more points.
Than again maybe that's just the price the mage has to pay. Go adepts.
Shaman. Beyond the fact the mages cost more, I feel shamans are better for Role playing. You have to think more about their applications and motivations and spirits allow much more interaction as partners instead of elementals that are just slaves.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| spirits allow much more interaction as partners instead of elementals that are just slaves. |
I can't agree. You tell spirits to come, and they come, without any benefit to them. Elementals have to be bribed.
I really hate the "shamans are better for roleplaying" arguements. Shamans are easier for roleplaying, maybe, but you don't need a little paragraph that says "Bat Shamans act like X" in order to roleplay. Mage characters just have to actually design a character, and not just pick a totem and say "Yea, I doeth as the Great Bat spake!"
With the paradigm info from SOTA 64, you can just pick a paradigm and say "Yea, I doeth as the Great Pythagoreans spake!" If that's what defines "better for roleplaying," then the playing field is equal at this point in that respect.
With the paradigm info from SOTA 64, you can just pick a paradigm and say "Yea, I doeth as the Great Pythagoreans spake!" If that's what defines "better for roleplaying," then the playing field is equal at this point in that respect.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| You have to think more about their applications and motivations and spirits allow much more interaction as partners instead of elementals that are just slaves. |
Actually, shamans motivations are a lot easier to think about. I mean, 99% of shamans represented in source material are various versions of Captain Planet. The ones that aren't follow the "Yea, I doeth as. . ." model. Hermetics require a bit more reasoning; you do the gutter-punk-who-met-Rat model to explain a Hermetic shadowrunner. A hermetic has to undgo a lot of training to do magic--and most of them can make a very, very comfortable living working for a corp or university. So you actually have to come up with a reason to be a runner. Or an explanation as to how you learned to use magic.
And not all elementals are mindless slaves. Theurgistic elementals appear (and behave) as divine powers. Remember that the "generic" Hermetic tradition prior to SOTA 64 was Renewed Hermetism (the most commonly practiced in North America and within the Megas). Elemental's form and mental accuity depends greatlly on the individual summoning it, and they can be far from mindless slaves.
And anyone who's read Doctor Faustus knows that "bound servant" does not automatically mean "Cannot interact with in a meaningful fashion."
| QUOTE (akarenti) |
| I really hate the "shamans are better for roleplaying" arguements. Shamans are easier for roleplaying, maybe, but you don't need a little paragraph that says "Bat Shamans act like X" in order to roleplay. Mage characters just have to actually design a character, and not just pick a totem and say "Yea, I doeth as the Great Bat spake!" |
Spot on. The totem's description is not a substitute for a character's personality. I've seen mages with a personality that drove an entire game.
That said, players who make a shaman and do "as bat spake" are doing themselves an incredible disservice as well. There ARE excellent role-play opportunities with shamans (I play a norse shark shaman even though I voted mage in this poll) but picking a totem should not be the end point of designing your shaman.
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