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Dawnshadow
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM)
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.

Core rules only for cyberware. Delta grade.:

6 points in body.
+5 bonus body (troll)
+1 dermal (natural)
+2 titanium bone lacing
+3 dermal plating
+1 2 cyberarms
+2 2 cyberlegs

--
20 body. (Can ony be done with deltaware -- takes 7.75 essence as a base)

Edges:
bonus attribute point (body)
exceptional attribute (body)

21 body
+6 body added over play (up to attribute maximum)

Gives a total of 27 body possible with the stuff I have right here.. don't know about other bodyboosting cyberware/bioware.

Edit: Flip side -- Why isn't body 15 impressive? Because you can get a lot more? Impressive isn't just what's 'the peak of possible' but just plain RARE... and you don't see many people with body 15. At all. Shoot.. how many trolls do you see with body 15?
mmu1
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 22 2005, 12:37 PM)
And yes, I do agree that it takes a considerable amount of ammunition to practice with automatic fire.  I just don't think you need to be crack shot to be able to hit a target with it.

Now as for Seaching fire...I haven't opened up my Cannon Companion in a while, so I suppose I'm just trying to rebuild the wheel.


But you do need to be a good shot to get a better result with full-auto than you'd get with a single shot or a three-round burst, which is something the rules do model, after a fashion.

If you can't compensate for the barrel climb, and aren't shooting at someone at very short range, you'll be hard pressed to get more then two or three rounds on target.

At least if we're talking about hand-held assault rifle sized weapons - things are (presumably, all my full-auto experience has been with ARs and SMGs) going to work differently with a 15 pound light machine gun on a bipod.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
20 body. (Can ony be done with deltaware -- takes 7.75 essence as a base)

Just to be picky, it works as betaware too (just not standard or alpha).
BitBasher
QUOTE
Edit: Flip side -- Why isn't body 15 impressive? Because you can get a lot more? Impressive isn't just what's 'the peak of possible' but just plain RARE... and you don't see many people with body 15. At all. Shoot.. how many trolls do you see with body 15?
15 body isn't impressive because it isn't gonna keep anything alive unless that thing also has a boatload of armor. Body in SR is not a trump card because of the dimishing returns of throwing extra dice at a test as the TN gets higher. High body will not save a tactically challenged NPC.

The key is not to change rules, but to have the NPC be less stupid. Unlike video games in SR one vs party boss fights don't freaking work.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (BitBasher)
15 body isn't impressive because it isn't gonna keep anything alive unless that thing also has a boatload of armor. Body in SR is not a trump card because of the dimishing returns of throwing extra dice at a test as the TN gets higher. High body will not save a tactically challenged NPC.

The key is not to change rules, but to have the NPC be less stupid. Unlike video games in SR one vs party boss fights don't freaking work.

It'll resist almost anything wielded in melee by a normal human (exceptions being things like shock weapons, venom, etc).

Normal human-- someone with average skill, average strength.

Now.. if you apply the normal armour used in the games I'm playing.. (armoured vest with plates, under a secure long coat)

That's 15 dice, + combat pool, with ballistic 6 and impact 4... which does a lot.

And even body 30 doesn't help if you're running around with only the cyberware for armour and some runner/goon opens up on you with a boatload of successes.. -1 power just doesn't help a lot against a 7 success 11S hit (burst with ordinary ammo from an assault rifle).. you're still throwing dice against a target 10.

Now, if you apply ordinary armour to any of these high body things, then they ARE impressive. Not because they will soak something like that.. but because they CAN soak it. It may (more likely will) take up karma to do it.. but they can.
shadow_scholar
a 15 body isn't impressive? It's two and a half times the maximum uncybered human.

I doubt any of my players have a body over 8, maybe even 6. I'm not wanting to kill the PCs outright. I guess you could say we're running a low power game, but I tend to respond to my PCs with how much power they bring. Unfortunately, only one of my PCs is intimately familiar with SR, so he was the only one who bought APDS, and he dispensed of the 15 body baddie rather easily with his T-Bolt, whereas the other PCs would have had significant trouble with him. I'm just going to have to find a way to balance it, I suppose, so the easiest way I think is to just bring back the refreshing die pools, which was a rule I liked, for everyone's benefit, especially the lower power players (who tend to be pacifistic).
hahnsoo
Just a note that dermal plating and bone lacing has reduced effectiveness when you are heavily cybered. More than 2 cyberlimbs, you start to take rating reductions, per p33 of Man and Machine.
Dawnshadow
Ah. I don't have M&M. How much are the penalties?
hahnsoo
2 Cyberlimbs/torso: No change
3 Cyberlimbs/torso: -1 Body/Armor for each individual ware (i.e. Plastic Bone Lacing becomes worthless)
4 Cyberlimbs/torso: -2 Body/Armor
5 or more: Full body replacement (at this point). No bonuses from any other ware.
Fortune
QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
a 15 body isn't impressive? It's two and a half times the maximum uncybered human.

Actually, it's under one and a half times. Uncybered human maximum is 11.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Feb 23 2005, 06:59 AM)
a 15 body isn't impressive?  It's two and a half times the maximum uncybered human.

Actually, it's under one and a half times. Uncybered human maximum is 11.

Damn, beat me to it. nyahnyah.gif
Austere Emancipator
In other words, you need to drop the Cyberarms. Now replace Dermal Plating-3 with Dermal Sheath-3 and you're standing at 6.35 Essence and still a BOD of 20. Get the TBL and DS-3 as Alpha and you're looking at 5.48 Essence and a measly price of 345k. Add a Suprathyroid Gland for 50k and 1.4 Bio, taking you up to BOD 21 (actually, add Suprathyroid before the cyber, so you don't get into problems with "natural attribute augmentation").

Then get crazy with Cyberlimb Armor. You can put Ablative-5 on both legs for 70k, netting you B4/I4 without any worn armor. To make you sure you get less penalties from the armor, use only the Bonus Attr Point on BOD (taking you up to 22) and the Exceptional Attribute Edge for QUI. Maxing QUI at chargen you get 5, +1 from Supra, and then get Muscle Toner-3 for 75k and 1.2 Bio (taking you up to 2.6 Bio total).

You now have a QUI of 9 and can wear an Armored Jacket for 9/7 and no penalties. What will it be, GMs, can he also wear a Form-Fitting Full Suit for 11/7 with no penalties? Or is it just 7/5 with the Armored Jacket, and no extra for any FF?

And do point out any mistakes I made. There are bound to be a few, I'm not a good min/maxer or rules lawyer.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM)
2) You don't actually dodge bullets, that's impossible. You make an effort to not be in front of the gun when it goes off. That's what dodging represents.

Why am I suddenly visualizing a little bald kid in Tibetan Monk style robes sitting crosslegged on the floor in front of a pile of bent spoons, saying "Do not try and dodge the bullets, that's impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth."
"What truth?"
"That having a gun pointed at you is bad. Then you will see that it is not the bullets that you dodge, but the gun."
mfb
when you have MBW-4, you won't have to dodge bullets. you'll slaughter all who oppose you before they can draw their weapons. you'll also be a drooling retard inside a year, but you'll still be less wooden than teh On3!
kevyn668
Edit: What's the question again?
RunnerPaul
Woah.
Wireknight
For people suggesting the highest possibly Body one can grant to a character, here it is. There are no other versions short of unrealistically potent increase cybered attribute(body) spells. This option employs edges, cyberware, bioware, SURGE rules, and genetech:

Race: Troll(Body 11[12])
Edges:
1. Exceptional Body(Body +1)
2. Toughness(Body +0[+1])
Cyberware: 6.35 Essence
1. Bone Lacing(Titanium)(Body +0[+2])
2. Dermal Sheathing(Rating 3)(Body +0[+4])
3. Cyberlegs(2)(Body +0[+2])
Bioware: 1.4 Bio Index
1. Suprathyroid Gland
Genetech: 1.0 Bio Index
1. Calcitonin(Body +0[+1])
2. Improved Racial Modified Limit(Body)(Body +1)
SURGE:
1. Dermal Deposits(Body +0[+1])

Explanation:

Beyond two cyberlimbs, a character starts losing statistics from their other body-increasing implants. Cyberlegs give you the most Body for the buck, so they're the best option for pure damage resistance. This character's body attribute has a racial modified limit of 13, and an attribute maximum of 20. To raise it from a starting value of 13 to a final value of 20 costs 357 good karma.

Final Value: Body 21[33]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion about autofire.

[edit]
Oh, and you could actually do this in character creation, short of the karma-increased Body. The Essence and Bio Index work out fine with alphaware and standard bioware. Of course, try starting off a game with a troll that has Body 13(25 for damage resistance), and almost no skills or other attributes to speak of, and see how your GM responds.
[/edit]
kevyn668
To quote RunnerPaul: "Woah."
hahnsoo
Dermal Sheathing removes the natural dermal deposits on a troll's skin. Not sure if you took that into account.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Wireknight)
[edit]
Oh, and you could actually do this in character creation, short of the karma-increased Body. The Essence and Bio Index work out fine with alphaware and standard bioware. Of course, try starting off a game with a troll that has Body 13(25 for damage resistance), and almost no skills or other attributes to speak of, and see how your GM responds.
[/edit]

What about Availability Limits?
mfb
i don't see that in the book, hahnsoo.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 22 2005, 10:21 PM)
i don't see that in the book, hahnsoo.

Hrm, neither do I. But it makes sense. You are replacing your entire skin with a layer of dermal armor. I'm wondering where I am getting that... maybe in the original sourcebook that dermal sheathing came from. *shrugs* I'll have to figure this out.
mfb
note that dermal sheathing has regenerative properties, though. even if they remove any dermal deposits that exist when the sheathing is implanted doesn't mean the deposits won't grow back--and because the dermal sheathing regenerates, it's likely to regrow around any holes that the dermal deposits poke in it, like a tree growing around a barbed wire fence.
Endgame50
I would go this route:

Ork (9 body base, 6 quickness base)
2 cyberlegs, obvious: Ballistic and Impact Armor: 10 per limb
+2 body
+4 ballistic/impact armor (the ballistic rating counts towards the
quickness modifier, but it doesn't count as layered armor otherwise)
+4 quickness to balance quickness.
Delta (1.3 essence)
Kevlar Bone Lacing: +1 Body, +1 Ballistic. Delta (0.4 essence)
Suprathyroid gland: +1 Body, +1 Quickness, Cultured (1.05 Bio)
Orthoskin level 2: +1 impact, +1 ballistic, cultured (0.60 Bio)
Muscle Toner 3: +3 Quickness, cultured (0.72 Bio)
Platelet Factories: -1 box to physical damage for mod+ wounds, cultured (0.3 Bio)
Chemical Gland, internal: Produced 1 dose of anticoagulant / day. Cultured (0.45 bio)
Trauma Damper: 1 box of physical damage to stun, cultured (0.3 Bio)
Secure Long Coat: +4 ballistic, +1 impact (effectively)
Rapid Transit Line Jumpsuit: +1 Ballistic, +4 impact (effectively)
Forearm guard: +1 impact in melee
Exceptional attribute: Quickness (+1 max quickness)
Increased Attribute: Body (+1 body)
Toughness (+1 body)
Raise body from 11 to 14 with (36+39+42) 117 good karma

So, Mr Ork has:
14 (18) body: 9 + (2) + (1) +1 +1 + (1) +3
10 quickness: 6+3+1
11 ballistic armor: 4+1+1+4+1
10(11) impact armor: 4+1+1+4+(1)
-2 boxes to wounds of moderate or higher damage, -1 box to light. (with one box of stun for every wound)
4.3 Essence
3.12 Bio Index
Leaves about 1.5 essence / Bio to play with

And if you replaced the forarm guards with a large riot shield, it'd be 13 ballistic, 13 impact.

Best I can do with a guy geared towards surviving physical trauma, off the top of my head. I'm sure there's lots more you could do with it

Not quite as impressive cause of the higher grade cyberware and bioware needed though
Austere Emancipator
Darn. SURGE and Genetech. I'll always be 2 points/ranks behind in any min/maxing competition because I haven't got all the books. frown.gif
Critias
Staying SoTA's a bitch.
Johnson
I have found that SOTA is used quite a bit, its a pitty its the SOTA 63 and 64 is the only 2 Tech books I don't have...
Endgame50
I highly recommend going out and getting them if and when your budget allows. In addition to some fun toys to play with, they're great for adding some flavor to your game--they go over the current trends and fads for each year.
Johnson
It have had SOTA 63 on order for the last 4 months and I placed the order SOTA 64 in January 05 I am still waiting for 3 games shops to get me the order. I am driving 120KM on saturday to a city to see if they don't have it there. I am missing out here.
Crusher Bob
Yay for SR PDFs
Johnson
PDF's. Yes I agree but I rather like the feel of books. Easy and quicker referance. But yes PDF's are nice.
Link
mfb (if the shadowland rules you quoted are yours)

I like the rules, I'd considered using the RC modifier in a similar manner but never really liked the open test autofire that some people here use.

Why did you put a +2 TN penalty on autofire? Game balance?

To save me working it out, is the result much the same as the standard rules (in terms of damage etc.)?
BitBasher
QUOTE (Johnson)
PDF's. Yes I agree but I rather like the feel of books. Easy and quicker referance. But yes PDF's are nice.

Er, heck no! Quicker reference on paper? In PDF I Can have it bring up every instance of a word or phrase in short order. My PDF's are used for reference far more often now. Heck, I don't even need to know what book it's in!
mfb
partly for game balance, partly for realism. for game balance, i don't think it works very well to allow someone to hit with (say) 6 rounds because they got one success at TN 4. for realism... well, i just don't think it works very well to allow someone to hit with 6 rounds because they got one success at TN 4.

the results are... different. if you look at autofire as a whole, it becomes more deadly, mainly because people use it more often, and hit more often when they use it. single, short bursts actually lose some effectiveness, because of the higher TN (most people using auotmatic weapons can scrounge up at least RC 3); if you use these, you might consider keeping the old rules if the shooter fires only 3 rounds. we don't, because when someone on SL flips to autofire, they almost never fire only 3 rounds, making it not worth the added complexity.
Smiley
Yeah, but with only one success, it's that much easier to dodge, there's no staging, and there's a better chance of soaking. I don't think all 6 rounds hit at all. Acutally, this may be another topic...
mfb
that one success gives your target +2 TN to dodge, +6 power, and +2 damage levels. that's (guestimated) about the same difficulty to dodge, and much more difficulty in soaking.
Smiley
But all the target needs is 1 six and he avoids it completely. I'd rather be facing down 1 success from a full auto than 4 or more on single shot or burst. Cuz remember, that full auto is the shooter's full action. SHould you successfully dodge, they don't get a second chance that pass.
mfb
no, he needs two sixes. you have to beat the attacker's successes to fully dodge a ranged attack, not just meet them. and, really, if a shooter is likely to get only 1 success at TN 6, he's not likely to get 4+ successes at TN 4.
Link
After rereading the SL rules it occurred to me that the only real difference is;

1. That the uncompensated rounds in a burst have a chance of hitting but this detracts from the overall number of successes.

2. The dodge TN is also harder because the total number of rounds are considered.

These 2 advantages are countered by the +2 TN mod.

Is this a fair assessment?

(note that we tend to fire a number of rounds up to the RC limit which keeps the TN at the base value - otherwise we go for suppression.)

I tend to think one could adjust the dodge TN normally ie. rounds actually on target, reduce or eliminate the TN mod. and I'd have a minimalist house rule that encourages spraying some lead while not making autofire overly lethal.

Of course the SL rules are probably tested so forgive my impertinence.
Rolemodel
QUOTE (BitBasher)
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.

I can't believe I just read that a body of '15' isn't all that impressive. That's like saying that climbing Mount Everest isn't really all that because we've been as high as the Moon.

No. The grim reality is that from a non-powergamer expression, a body of '15' is what we in the business call a 'Nice chunk of change', Troll or no.

RodeModel@Yourmomma.lastnight
BitBasher
QUOTE (Rolemodel)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM)
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.

I can't believe I just read that a body of '15' isn't all that impressive. That's like saying that climbing Mount Everest isn't really all that because we've been as high as the Moon.

No. The grim reality is that from a non-powergamer expression, a body of '15' is what we in the business call a 'Nice chunk of change', Troll or no.

RodeModel@Yourmomma.lastnight

As I explained above the actual stat is largely irrelevant because it's armor that saves lives, not body. High attributes like body have seriously dimishing returns when the TN's go up. It's kind of counterproductive, and it certainly isn't gonna let him take on a group of PC's.
Rolemodel
Of course. High armor plays it's part, naturally.

But on one hand, we have high armor reducing the TN to 2, and on the other, armor reducing the TN from something high, to something still difficult to peg down.

But with low body, that TN to 2 still has bite between either forcing you to expend your combat pool dice, or being stacked with offensive successes - Point in fact, high body equates potential for high wound reduction.

At that point, you'll want all the dice you can throw, and then some. Karma pool utilization. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

So - If armor saves lives, then high body saves combat pool.

-RM
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Rolemodel @ Mar 1 2005, 04:56 AM)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM)
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.

I can't believe I just read that a body of '15' isn't all that impressive. That's like saying that climbing Mount Everest isn't really all that because we've been as high as the Moon.

No. The grim reality is that from a non-powergamer expression, a body of '15' is what we in the business call a 'Nice chunk of change', Troll or no.

RodeModel@Yourmomma.lastnight

As I explained above the actual stat is largely irrelevant because it's armor that saves lives, not body. High attributes like body have seriously dimishing returns when the TN's go up. It's kind of counterproductive, and it certainly isn't gonna let him take on a group of PC's.

That is tremendously flawed.. simply because the armour is another variable that isn't affected by the body of the character.

Yes, armour makes a massive difference. But, proportionally, the difference is a LOT more important on the high body characters.

Figure 6 body, which is really high for mages/shamans, I would think, and somewhat low for adepts/sams. (not dealing with trolls here) We'll be optimistic and give 10 combat pool, which is quite a bit.

Now.. given 8/8 armour..

Insert the bad guy.
1 Street Sam. Smartlink 2. Short range. Ares Predator (default ammo, GV2). Predators specialization (cool.gif. Combat pool 10.

1st shot: 16 dice, TN 2: 13 successes (average).
Best the char with 6 body can do, with 100% combat pool, is 16 successes. Light wound.
2nd shot: 10 dice, TN 2: 8 successes (average).
Best the char with 6 body can do, having NO combat pool: 6 successes. Serious wound.

Body 15 bruiser with same armour:
1st shot: 16 dice, TN 2: 13 successes (average)
Needs 17 successes to soak. That's 2 combat pool minimum, average needed: 5.
2nd shot: 10 dice, TN 2: 8 successes (avarege)
Needs 12 successes to soak. That's... average number from JUST ROLLING BODY.

Troll still has combat pool, and no damage.

Basically, what I'm getting it:
Armour has a limitting factor in effectiveness of (Body). Just like combat has a limitting factor of 'skill', and spells are limitted by force (in some way, shape or form, even if it's just easy to dispel).

Besides, it's a seriously bad argument to assume body 15 means naked, while everyone else is running around in security armour. Completely irrelevent in most forums, it's actually called 'The Straw Man Fallacy', and works by taking an opponents position and attacking one that's similar, but fundamentally weaker, instead of the actual argument.
BitBasher
I didn't assume anything means naked, I was just stating the fact that a 15 body doesn't put the fear of god into anyone in my games unless it's backed up by a solid character or NPC. The 15 body alone doesn't cause fear.

QUOTE
So - If armor saves lives, then high body saves combat pool.
Actually my group rarely uses combat pool to resist, they blow it all in an attempt to didge, because getting shot, whether or not you actually take damage, degrades armor and therefore screws you in the long run.
mfb
QUOTE (Link)
I tend to think one could adjust the dodge TN normally ie. rounds actually on target, reduce or eliminate the TN mod. and I'd have a minimalist house rule that encourages spraying some lead while not making autofire overly lethal.

the thing is, even the rounds that miss are going to be nearby, most times. you have to make sure, when you're dodging, that you don't dodge out of the path of one bullet and into another. i suppose you could do something like having your cover reduce the number of off-target rounds you have to dodge. that'd help encourage use of cover.

but, yes, those are the main effects.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (BitBasher)
I didn't assume anything means naked, I was just stating the fact that a 15 body doesn't put the fear of god into anyone in my games unless it's backed up by a solid character or NPC. The 15 body alone doesn't cause fear.

QUOTE
So - If armor saves lives, then high body saves combat pool.
Actually my group rarely uses combat pool to resist, they blow it all in an attempt to didge, because getting shot, whether or not you actually take damage, degrades armor and therefore screws you in the long run.

You're making the argument that body 15 alone doesn't save lives.

Using the same argument structure, I can argue that armour is useless, because it's the number of successes that make the difference, and someone who throws only 1 dice, it doesn't matter how good their armour is. Unless it's hardened armour, they will not be able to handle anything.

The argument is a bad one, because it uses the Straw Man Fallacy. It doesn't matter that I'm right, and body 1, all the armour in the world won't help against 5 successes moderate damage, but, because it's not applying reasonable behaviour and comparing equal body to the two tests.

If you want to prove that armour saves lives, you take two persons with EQUAL body and different armour, and see which survives more.

If you want to prove that body does not, you take different bodies with the same armour, and see which survives more.
Arethusa
Dawn, you're nitpicking, and repeatedly beating your chest with full pretention and declaring that yes, indeed, your dastardly oppenent is— gasp!— strawmanning is not helping. It's unnecessary and it's puerile.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Dawn, you're nitpicking, and repeatedly beating your chest with full pretention and declaring that yes, indeed, your dastardly oppenent is— gasp!— strawmanning is not helping. It's unnecessary and it's puerile.

I disagree, but if that's the position you want to take, it's your perogative. Personally, I've always thought that if someone is using a bad argument, then dissecting the argument and why it's bad is a valid form of debate.

Now, to attack the person making the argument, is something else entirely, unless it's to indicate that someone shouldn't be able to make any argument about it at all.
Arethusa
It's not a valid form of debate when you're dissecting a casual turn of phrase used for implicit emphasis and treating it as a formal argument— and, in effect, creating little straw men yourself.
hahnsoo
*hands out some NERPS* Everyone feel better now?
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