Yep. Elves are floofy and gay. And pretty lame to boot.

I mean, sure dwarves are small, and rediculous, but at the least they're good for comic relief.

Any of you U.G. Elitists have some good tales of general Stupid-Floofy-Genre-Killing-Elf-Smashing to share?

-RM

And trolls are stupid, orcs smell, dwarves are hairy and humans racist. Guess we all suck

No, the Sea Dragon's intelligent Merrow rule!

"Genre-killing." Heh. That's right. Elves have no place in a fantasy game.

I'm pretty sure that Fortune is going to have something to say on this topic, once he gets around to reading it.

Eh, most elves are fine. Tir Tairngire elves suck giant rubber balls though, and so do Aztalan and Japan and all the other morons who gang-raped the CFS one after another for twenty-five years now.

(Sorry; been reading through sourcebooks again. )

here, here elves are pap they think they are so special! and that they are the important one's...... orks may smell but we still kick ass and i would smack an elf any day!


hehe

torz x

Simple fact is Elves are just like anything else in any game, ever -- it all comes down to who's playing 'em, and how well that playing meshes with the rest of the campaign. Not all Elves are from one of the Tirs, and not all Tir-born kids grow up to act and dress like Legolas.

Sometimes an Elf pc is just a guy with pointy ears who can see in the dark, y'know? Either Rolemodel here's flaming, joking, or is just bothered by how someone in particular might play Elves, and how that doesn't match the feel and flavor of the rest of the group/game/campaign.

Saying "Elves are fruity and gay" makes about as much sense as a serious, modern-day, bigot saying "black people leech of the government," or something. Just another stereotype based wholly on negativity.

[Edit to add -- and for those interested in nothing but talking smack, I've got an Elf or two I'd gladly toss into a fight against a racist pc of another metatype, any day of the week.]

Or trying to get his forum post count higher. Oh wait, I guess I'm getting my count higher, too, by contributing another worthless post.

No. Min-maxed albino cyclops wyrm shamans with a force 8 weapon focus and 10 in edged weapons suck. I don't mind othe rmetatypes at all

At least Polaris backed his position up with some number-crunching, even if he did follow it up with some incorrect assertions.

~J

Heh.

No, I was mostly kidding. I mean, sure, I -do- think elves are bouncy, floofy, and as a -broad, (personal opinion) generalization- fit better into your fantasy D&D game, as opposed to the gutterpunk grunge that I like (Used to notice more prevelently(sp?). YOTC, eh?) like to associate w/ Shadowrun.

But the thread, despite references to the unrelenting floofiness of woodland elves, was focused on U.G. on In Character daisystomps, rather than my opinion of the overly populated elven species.

So. Back on topic - Anyone got some good stomps to share?

!MR

Why would elves have any less place in this type of game than any of the other metahuman races? They all spring from fantasy, after all.

Can you explain why Elves are any less gritty than, say, Dwarves? Or Humans?

I think what we have here is a failure of imagination.

~J

Take a look at Tarislar. Take a look at the Ancients, or even better the Princes of the Blood. Remember that for every hoity-toity fancy-schmancy Tir na nOg or Tir Tairngire, a 'normal' city has an elven ghetto.

They're plenty gritty. People just ignore that.

GM's often ignore them, or at least that aspect of them. When they want a gutter punk, they make him an ork. When they want a bum, they make him a human. When they want a scary gang, they use trolls. When they want a mage? When they want a smooth talker wearing his high Charisma score on the sleeve of his suit? Yeah, sure, then the Elves start rollin' in. It's a stereotype perpetuated even by the archetypical characters in the main SR3 book.

Elves can be just a gritty -- if not moreso, if you use their inhuman beauty and grace as a counterpoint to their horrid surroundings and living conditions and lifestyles -- as any other SR metatype. It's all up to the GM, and what aspects of their canon background he ignores and highlights.

Ugh. Y'want gritty, take a look at Jack Slater's mother-in-law. Gah. Trailer trash elf.

This is why I always play halflings : P (yeah, I'm using weredigo's rules).

I'm with whoever started this thread!! Down with the dandelion munchers!! Pointy eared freak good-for-nothings! "Ooooh help me, I can't eat meat because I'm a pansy! Ohhh... my pointed ears make me better at decking!" FEH! Kill 'em all.

Except the chicks, cause they're pretty hot.

nezumi: Say that to my ex-ganger Elf with Cha 3 and a taste for barely cooked steak. He'd shoot you on the spot.

"Floofy"? I don't believe that I've ever played a "floofy" elf. Or had one in my games. Also, all the elves I've seen have been heterosexual. But YMMV
As to the daisystomping, I believe all the stomping would be done by my elf character.

Bah, darn those dandelion eaters! Alamos 20k all the way!!! Brackhaven for president!!!

Somewhat off-topic: What sort of racial slurs are incorporated in other roleplaying games? Shadowrun has a lot of ones that I haven't heard used in other RPGs, such as "Keeb", "dandelion eater", and "trog" (this one can probably be deprecated to other RPGs pretty easily, I guess). "Halfer" is a common one for dwarf in SR, sometimes applied to other games (but then again dwarves and short jokes tend to go hand in hand).

I use "keeb." "Dandelion eater" just takes too long to say. A good slur is one syllable; two at the most.

But as others have said, elves can be just as gritty as any other race. Possibly more so because of the "floofy" stereotype some unfortunately bring to the game. A dead-beat, filthy, impoverished, foul-mouthed ork hooker is the status quo. A dead-beat, filthy, impoverished, foul-mouthed elf hooker really brings home the dystopia.

What I'm wondering at this very moment is what is the Definition of Floofy?

erm??

torz x

I don't know... When I played that other game I noticed there was a subset of players and GMs who were "Elf Elitists". These people would use the elven archetype to mask their own elitist tendencies. After all, they were only acting like snobs for ROLEPLAYING reasons, it's what their characters were like....

Anyway, this type of behavior amongst a subset of players/GMs is probably at the heart of Rolemodel's angst over elves. But I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth.


For SR, racism against elves SHOULD be as prevalent as it is against Orks and Trolls. It just takes on a different cast/caste. After all, elves have the looks and magical talent to get ahead of the game and live the golden life, right? Considering conditions in Portland, of course this is overstating the case but then again, we're talking about racism. So elves are put on a pedestal and resented for being the light in a world of drek while "Trogs" are condemmed as stupid/brutish/violent and are relegated to menial labor while "Grumpy" gets stereo-typed as the tech-wiz with a Napoleon complex...

All too often, racism against elves and dwarves are underplayed at the game table, leaving players of orks and trolls to take the heat. Now, this may reflect the actuality of a greater stigma in the game for orks and trolls but all too often it more or less reflects the player's attitudes, rather than that of their charaters. I must say, the IE phenomena hasn't helped IMHO.

I think there's a tendency on these sorts of threads to dismiss anyone's problems with anything character-related as a problem with their players. I can definitely see why some people would have a problem with elves in their games, both as PCs and NPCs. Elves fit in very well with most SR games, but some just don't like to emphasize the fantasy aspects, which affects Elves and Dwarves more than Orks and Trolls, because in D&D, you could play Elves and Dwarves, while (at least when I was playing, don't know about more recent additions, or even old supplementals) you couldn't play an ork or a troll in D&D, and even if you could, trolls in SR are pretty different from trolls in any fantasy RPG I've ever seen (except ED, obviously).

I have a problem with the way Elves are portrayed in SR, but it's nothing a little creative GMing hasn't been able to solve thus far. The big thing is immortal elves. Even normal elves are portrayed as having lifespans several times longer than anyone else, which offers them all sorts of advantages that I can't even begin to get into. And the since so far there's only been immortal Elves (and I think maybe one or two extremely vague hints at the possibility of other immortal metatypes), canon has seemed to shine the spotlight on elves in a way entirely different from other metahumans, reserving them as the "special" metatype. They also get their own nations, which are much more powerful than anything the other metatypes have been able to scrape together (Cascade Ork can't go around beating the CFS in wars). As a GM, if you don't like this situation, you can of course just say there are no Immortal Elves, or at least if there are, there are also immortal Orks, Trolls, Dwarves, and Humans. I think it's also probably easy enough just to cut the Tirs from the setting altogether without affecting anything else too much, since they're both so isolationist. I have a problem with teh way canon seems to give elves special treatment, but thus far it hasn't been a big enough deal for me to change anything (except with regard to the immortal elves, where I absolutely refuse to show canon any respect).

Well, of course Elves would be subjected to racism. Just not in the same way Trolls, Dwarves or Orcs are.

I always consider Elves to be subjects of a type of racism similar to what Jews (and Chinese in SE Asia) are often subjected to. They are too pretty too "clever", have too much luck, and above all, everyone has a friend who has been crossed by one, or has heared some stories that are really true, and those were pretty bad. And everyone knows they're secretly conspiring to take over the world, most likely aided by Dragons. The wise men of Tir, anyone?

Being better by default makes you the target of all those who feel set back by that - humans who see themselves diminished by an elf's beauty, men who take an elf woman's rejection a bit too personal ("We'll see if you're really too good for me, bitch!"), not to mention that it's always okay to harrass an elf or crack stupid jokes about elves, because everyone knows they're better off anyway, so they propably deserve it.

The 3rd ED. SB kinda hints to this, but for some reason, they have never really built on it, save for the small Hawaii book/adventure.

Not to mention this "Gay and fagooty" idea people always have about elf men.

I find it odd that I'm the first one to mention that the description of elves in SR3 pretty much addresses whole "what happens when Elves live in the Real World, instead of the the "fairyland Tir" " issue.

I've played a number of elven female characters, and never once have they been anything remotely akin to lesbians.

I have an unnatural hatred of elves. Ever since I read the LotR trilogy in like 6th grade, I just couldn't stand them for some reason. I keep running totals of how many elves I kill in just about every game I play that involves elves and killing.

That being said, I don't have much of a problem with elves in SR. Elves are pretty rare in my games, but they're generally just "normal" people (although they do get more than their fair share of magical ability). I actually lay off the racism against orks, trolls, and dwarves, because nobody ever wants to play them. I get like 10 humans and 3 elves for every 1 ork, troll, or dwarf from my players.

Did have an elf Rusted Stilleto ganger as an NPC once. His Charisma was lower that Elvishly possible, and he acted more like a steriotypical trog than most of the actual orks and trolls he hung out with. But the players remembered him, because he was different.

I usually try to play to steriotypes when designing NPCs; it helps the players develope and understand the types of prejudices that their characters and NPCs most likely would have. That way they notice when someone is breaking the mold, and the game doesn't degenerate into the Utopian world where everyone gives everyone a even chance, and people get to know people before making judgements. I mean, it is fantasy/sci fi, but you can only suspend so much disbelief.