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Luca
From SR Companion I remember a lot of purely european metatypes (ogres, night-ones, minotaurs, cyclops, giants, firlbogs, dryads, gnomes, satyrs, etc..): How much are these diffused if compared with the "normal" elves, orcs, trolls & dwarves?
I was supposing that in lands like Greece (not described by SoE) or Italy, due to the particular Classical roots minotaurs, satyrs & cyclops should be more present than elves, trolls and orcs (which are, roughly speaking, based on a mixture of Tolkienian- Medieval Northern mythology).
mattness pl
QUOTE
I was supposing that in lands like Greece (not described by SoE) or Italy, due to the particular Classical roots minotaurs, satyrs & cyclops


Good topic, Luca

I love classical mithology.
I don't know why Greece wasn't even mentioned in SoE frown.gif . That's craddle of Western Civilisation.

AFAiK Luca asked about proportion between metavariants in 6th world Europe?
If so, i'm interested in answers, too.
Luca
I'm interested in all the Eastern European but they just cut it....it's just a pity that they consider "European" only the boring centro-western part....anyway, I can understand the "space-argument" (Europe, thanks to God, is much a funnier and more interesting place than America...I can understand the depthd of Ute or Sioux culture....but one must be realistic, Europe NEED more space to be described)....and I come back to my point.
Races in SR are too "German-tolkien" oriented...I'm an Italian and I can say, for sure, that if I ask to my grandfather what a troll is like he probably replies that it is something to eat....I cannot imagine my sons in 2064 transformed in trolls and elves: I have no bloody Saxon\German genes in my DNA!!!!!
Ancient History
The distribution isn't pure...part of it has to do with the area and part of it has to do with genetics. So a troll of Greek descent born in Japan might express as a minotaur or cyclops, but perhaps not as easily as one born in Greece.

Generally speaking metavariants, even with SURGE, are a very, very small fraction of the metahuman population.

If the standard is 9.8% elves, 9.8% dwarves, 9.8orks, 9.8% trolls, 1% changeling and 59.8% human...well, let me look at some numbers, I don't want to pull something completely out of my ass.
Luca
Yes, but there is still a fact.
Minotaurs should be considered metavariants of trolls in North America or Germany....but I prefer trolls to be considered a metavariant of minotaurs in Greece!!!!
I do not like Italy or Greece to be full of elves.....we are not bloody, damned, Germans or celts, we are a Mediterranean culture!!
Ancient History
Too bad, Luca. Everyone has to live with elves. If it makes you feel any better, less elves probably UGE'd in Greece and Italy because of the mountainous terrain; and you can palm off most of the others as Theran descendants or imports.

And do you reaaally want the minotaur metavariant to be related to actual minotaurs? Think about that for a second. Nonsentient nonhumanoid critter -> sentient humanoid metavariant.

I mean, that's just begging for someone to go claim a bounty.
Luca
WELL, I was not clear. I was not speaking about the minotaur critter but the sentient minotaur.
Trolls-cyclops-giants-minotaurs are all linked. In places of Anglosaxon-western-German culture (if America can be completely defined as that....probably it is better to say "western" types of cultures) Trolls seem to be the norm while cyclops and minotuars the variants....I would like to do the opposite in Greece and in Italy.
In any case, do not care about my opinion, I, myself, just do not like the Germanocentric view of Shadowrun, but that's only me.
I would like to know if there is, around, any really official answer to my question.
How many metas in Europes are:
not trolls but cyclops and minotaurs?
not dwarves but gnomes and Satyrs?
not elves but Night ones and Dryads?
not orcs but ogres? (what the hell hobgoblins and ogres are supposed to be in the Medieval European traditions\legends? I think these metavariants are just "D&D-derived", except than in D&d ogres are supposed to be bigger. I have no idea of the EarthDawn world, I was only thinking about the Real World legends\culture connections)
Ancient History
"Germanocentric?" That's a new one on me, chummer.

I can understand a desire for the Grecian metavariants to be more prominent.

Also, Satyrs are an ork metavariant, not a dwarf metavariant.

The ogre and hobgoblin metavariants do have a mythological basis, but I wouldn't say they're based solely on DnD critters.
Synner
Just for reference, in the canon Sixth World metavariants are only a fraction of the standard metaexpression even in their "homelands". This "fraction" has never been given actual values but the wording assumes they aren't the majority. That being said at several points in SoE and previous books its suggested that the percentage of metavariant expression in some countries is quite high (giant trolls in Scandinavia, minotaurs trolls in Spain, menehune dwarves in Hawaii, Oni orks in Japan). As a guideline one SoE we assumed that these metavariant populations would number no more than 30% of their basic meta expression population.

Regarding the mythological/geographic links, it's pretty much assumed in SR that the cultures that carried the legends through the downcycle had the same geographic roots as the original metavariants which inspired said legends, hence: Cyclops and minotaurs probably originate from Greek, Minoan and possibly Phoenician ethnicities; satyrs are likely Greek, Italian and from around the Mediterranean basin (there are several Turkic and Arabic legends about goat-footed men); gnomes and ogres originate mostly from Germanic and Nordic lore; giants and dryads fit a number of different ancient legends from the Fey, the Germanic, Norse and even Roman mythologies (although the former figure most preeminently in Norse and Germanic mythology); hobgoblins are from Eastern Europe and might be linked to legends of the Fey. Fomorians, gnomes and night ones (if we link them to certain legends of the Unseelie/Winter court of the Fey) are mostly of Celtic and Nordic inspiration.

There is very little "Germanocentric" about SR's approach to metahumanity and particularly not to the metavariants.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Ancient History)
"Germanocentric?" That's a new one on me, chummer.

x2

The only "Germanic" metahuman I can think of is the dwarf.

(Germany does have mythological creatures very vaguely resembling elves: The Alb (alternative spelling Elb) is a malevolent spirit being that brings bad dreams - in fact the German word for nightmare* is "Albtraum" (Alb as above, Traum means dream).)

(* Another being bringing nightmares in German mythology is the "Nachtmahr", lit. "night horse", note the similarity to English nightmare.)
akarenti
Plus, if you ignore the Names, elves greatly could very well be equated to sirens, nymphs, about a zillian other things that appeared as inhumanly attractive and magically potent in Classical Mythology; not to mention abnormally clever and charismatic heros.

Most cultures have abnormally short people, too, so dwarves aren't that farfetched.

Orks and Trolls are a bit more difficult--but every culture has barbaric monsters that were just intellegent enough to get tricked by the more clever hero.
Ancient History
Hey now-Barbarossa was a troll too!
Chibu
Well, the thing is, the meta-variants will be very sparse. And, I can tell you exactly why. Shadowrun is the successor (in time anyway) to Earthdawn. In which, there were none of these silly meta-variants. They are simply the result of thousands of years of inbreeding and (in the case of shifters) bestiality. >_<

And, being that Earthdawn takes place in south-western Russia (between the Black and Caspian Seas and just north of the Caucus mountains), which is a part of Europe, the dominant Type of meta-humans should be dwarves.

The only reasons that i can come up with that humans are still the most dominant are:
1. Mana level has not finished rising yet.
2. The cross-breading has brought out a human dominant gene in most people
3. Because the players of Shadowrun are human, they didn't want to make it too far from reality.

I think the third is the most likely reason, and the first is the most likely SR reason.

just my .02 nuyen.gif ^-^

EDIT:

QUOTE
Fomorians, gnomes and night ones (if we link them to certain legends of the Unseelie/Winter court of the Fey) are mostly of Celtic and Nordic inspiration.


Fomorians are actually from Celtic/Saxon Mythology. But, they are actually a misinterpretation of Stories. Fomorians were actually just people from Scandinavia. THey just happened to be slightly taller, good looking, and they were all strong becasue the only ones anyone ever saw were warriors. And, they legends describe the armour that they wore but left out actually saying armour. They said something like "wore" which was translated badly over the generations. And, then the stories were told over and over and then we got big horned guys that were kind of like pretty trolls. ^-^ (I guess i'm up to .04 nuyen.gif now nyahnyah.gif)
Prospero
I actually have to disagree with you on that last point. Formorians (or Fomoiri in Old Irish) are AFAIK only in Irish myth and they're attested to as otherworldly opponents of the Tuatha De Danann a good bit before anyone would have been confusing them for Scandanavians. Anyway, the Irish saw a lot of Scandanavians when they started seeing them and would probably not have been confusing them for strange monsters or anything.

Another thing about the Earthdawn connection is that we really don't know anything about the end of the 4th age - maybe lots of the metavariants got started then? Okay, that's a bit of a stretch, but, hey. And, anyway, Earthdawn didn't cover much beyond Barsaive IIRC so variants could have been around in other places and the 5th world just allowed them to spread their genes around. So maybe Greece really did have a lot of Cyclopses back then. Who knows?
Chibu
I'll have to go back and re-read some things to make sure, but, Scandianavia WAS like an 'otherworld' back in the day (but, yes, i know what you mean) and, you are right, that is what the newer stories say. (And by newer i'm not talking NEW) But, the way it's worded in the old tales... i'll look it up, and post again when i find something.
Ancient History
It's not strictly true that metavariants didn't exist in the 4th world...the differences between races become more extreme in many cases. Ogres, for example.
audun
QUOTE (M$T1C)
The only "Germanic" metahuman I can think of is the dwarf.

(Germany does have mythological creatures very vaguely resembling elves: The Alb (alternative spelling Elb) is a malevolent spirit being that brings bad dreams - in fact the German word for nightmare* is "Albtraum" (Alb as above, Traum means dream).)

(* Another being bringing nightmares in German mythology is the "Nachtmahr", lit. "night horse", note the similarity to English nightmare.)

From Wikipedia: Elves are mythical creatures of Germanic mythology that have survived in northern European folklore.

As for nigthmares. In Norwegian folklore/mythology the "mare" is not a horse, but roughly the same thing as a Succubus/Incubus(the spirit, not the SR octopus thing). I suspect that this is the original meaning of the word nightmare and the "night horse" myth simply is a confusion developed later ("mare" getting confused with mare).
Prospero
QUOTE (Chibu)
I'll have to go back and re-read some things to make sure, but, Scandianavia WAS like an 'otherworld' back in the day (but, yes, i know what you mean)  and,  you are right, that is what the newer stories say. (And by newer i'm not talking NEW) But, the way it's worded in the old tales...  i'll look it up, and post again when i find something.

You should. I'd be interested. One example of what I'm citing is a reeeally old poem from circa 7th C. about the death of a famous prince, where it says "A prince who has reached the realms of the dead, the noble sone of Setnae, laid waste to the vales of the Fomoire under the wordls of men." Other places the Tuatha De are also under the earth and often fight with the Fomoire. Makes you wonder how much, in SR, Fomorians are connected with the Unseelie Court.
torzzzzz
if we are talking about variants of mythical creatures what class would harpys come under? most of the mythical creatures of ancient Greece were cool just look at the stuff Jason had to fight and i can definitely say they were not elves!

Also look at northen Europe we had the best Warewolves and vampires originated in hungary and Germany!

torz x smile.gif
Luca
The division Elves/Dwarves, to my knowledge, is a rationalization made by Tolkien of legends from Northern (or germanic, or Saxon or whatever you like but NOT MEDITERRANEAN) folklore.
I doubt that that Saxon farmer of 10th century AD was able to distinguish dwarves and elves as we are able to distinguish them through tolkienian pespectives.
In any case, the point is that the SR races are still dependent of Tolkienian parameters and therefore northern parameters.
The presence of Troll in Greece is a bit strange to me but the presence of Cyclops in Greece is more interesting. Therefore I`m just thinking about how much the local folklore was really important in shaping metavariants.
maybe in Germany local traditions favoured Elves and Trolls....but in any case, for sure Italian Folklore do not comprehend Elves, Trolls and Dwarves. I can tell it because I`M ITALIAN.
Even if you want to identify Sirens with Elves (and it is a shit of hypothesis) I cannot support it because I can tell that we had further folklore after the Classical Period Literature and Italian medieval tales have no Siren to my memory.....
Let be FRANK: Shadowrun creators look at the thing with an Western, American Anglo-Saxon perspective, not with a local one....an example is the fact that in SoE although Germany section was written by german authors the Italian Section was written by a man with a certainly NON-Italian-but-english name.....and this could say a lot about the real "local feeling" of that section...
audun
QUOTE (Luca)
The division Elves/Dwarves, to my knowledge, is a rationalization made by Tolkien of legends from Northern (or germanic, or Saxon or whatever you like but NOT MEDITERRANEAN) folklore.
I doubt that that Saxon farmer of 10th century AD was able to distinguish dwarves and elves as we are able to distinguish them through tolkienian pespectives.
In any case, the point is that the SR races are still dependent of Tolkienian parameters and therefore northern parameters.

SR elves are based on D&D elves which is mostly based on Tolkien elves. Tolkien elves are based on the elves of Norse mythology which more or less as the Fey.
Tolkien dwarves are based on Norse dwarves which where quite far from the elves, beeing among the Jotnir and to a degree they where quite like the Tolkien dwarves (beards, master smiths, etc). Many of the Tolkien dwarves has names from Norse mythology.
QUOTE
The presence of Troll in Greece is a bit strange to me but the presence of Cyclops in Greece is more interesting. Therefore I`m just thinking about how much the local folklore was really important in shaping metavariants.
maybe in Germany local traditions favoured Elves and Trolls....but in any case, for sure Italian Folklore do not comprehend Elves, Trolls and Dwarves. I can tell it because I`M ITALIAN.

But are you a folklorist?
QUOTE
Even if you want to identify Sirens with Elves (and it is a shit of hypothesis) I cannot support it because I can tell that we had further folklore after the Classical Period Literature and Italian medieval tales have no Siren to my memory.....
Let be FRANK: Shadowrun creators look at the thing with an Western, American Anglo-Saxon perspective, not with a local one....an example is the fact that in SoE although Germany section was written by german authors the Italian Section was written by a man with a certainly NON-Italian-but-english name.....and this could say a lot about the real "local feeling" of that section...

Synner (Peter Taylor) lives in Portugal. IIRC there was also some Italians involved in the EuroSB project though it ended up with Peter writing the chapter. Most of SoE is indeed written by locals or with input from locals.
Though, of course SR is American-centric. But most of SR's creations including Trolls, Elves and magic is mostly D&Dish and nothing else. Local has nothing to do with it.
akarenti
QUOTE (Luca)
Even if you want to identify Sirens with Elves (and it is a shit of hypothesis) I cannot support it because I can tell that we had further folklore after the Classical Period Literature and Italian medieval tales have no Siren to my memory.....


I wasn't saying that actual real-life mythological elves were related to sirens--pretty much all of my post was about Metahumans in game. Just because they happen to think of themselves as "elves" in America and Northern Europe, doesn't necessarily mean that's what they identify with in other parts of the world. You have an easier time fitting "pointy ears, pretty, live a long time, MagicPower ™" into Classical Mythology than you would in a lot of other regions.

And it is a game. If you really want to nitpic, I'd start with Native Americans or Vodoun. They bastardized like 50 currently practiced religious structures to fit them into the game's magic system. I think Itally got off light--they just have to deal with some displaced "folklore".

And the races that happen to share names with mythological races are about as close to their historic myths as Ant Farms are to Easter Bunnies. Everyone saying "Tolkien meets Gibson" might be onto something...

akarenti
Luca: What type of mythological beings from post-Classical Italian folklore would you like to see in SR?
Synner
QUOTE
Let be FRANK: Shadowrun creators look at the thing with an Western, American Anglo-Saxon perspective, not with a local one....an example is the fact that in SoE although Germany section was written by german authors the Italian Section was written by a man with a certainly NON-Italian-but-english name.....and this could say a lot about the real "local feeling" of that section...

I'd rather keep PETER. This just goes to show what happens when people jump to conclusions. With the exception of the writing o Tir Na nOg, all the writers on SoE were Europeans.

In fact much of the Italian chapter, with the exception of the Church, was at least in part based on contributions from Italian EuroSB contributors Paolo Marcucci (of Dumpshock fame) and Paolo Falco (who concieved GeMiTo). While I may be non-native, the final version also had their blessing.

I myself spend quite a bit of time every year in Italy (my S.O. and fact-checker is Italian), admittedly mostly in the North, and I've gotten to know Genua, Milan, Trento, Florence, Verona, Venice, Trieste and of course the Italian people pretty well. I also understand and speak (roughly) Italian (as well as French, Spanish and Portuguese) and my reading is pretty fluent. In fact, I've even played Italian RPGs (ie. Lex Arcana, the Nathan Never setting for Cyberpunk, etc)...

You're entitled to gripe all you want that SR Italy didn't come out the way you envisioned it - and I'm perfectly willing to reply to any comments you might have-, but I was not going to write up a Roman mythological rebirth or the return of medieval legends beyond what has already been established in SR canon (which in fact regarding Italy turned out to be more than expected) and which I had to work with.

Regarding the Italian folklore, you're only right if you refer strictly to the names. Most Italian "folklore" is Medieval rather than Classical or Dark Ages, but for argument's sake a glance through Italo Calvino's works (particularly his compilaton of Italian Folklore and his short stories) can be quite telling in finding similarities - which is all you need since SR Elves and Trolls have about that much in common with Elves and Trolls of Germanic/Celtic/Saxon lore.

PS: You seem to have a mistaken understanding of metaexpression in SR. Metahumanity is a genetic trait. Expression is not influenced by beliefs. The four dominant metatypes are global genetics traits. Metavariants are local variants of the main metatypes. Why some of the legends survived has more to do with what lore survived from the last magic Age and any localized Manapeaks that happened during the downcycle. IE. In Classical cultures one would assume that peaks during the Hellenic/Minoan golden age produced metavariants from the local genepool rather than the basic metatype and those were the legends that stayed. Much like the Manaspike in Dark Ages Germany and Central Europe which lead to legends of trolls and such...
hermit
QUOTE
maybe in Germany local traditions favoured Elves and Trolls....but in any case, for sure Italian Folklore do not comprehend Elves, Trolls and Dwarves. I can tell it because I`M ITALIAN.


Well, I am German, reasonably well versed in Celtic and Germanic mythology, and can assure you that Shadowrun's vision of trolls, dwarves and elves isn't 100% like the old legends would have.

Actually, in some respects, Roman mythology is closer to SR's than Germanic/Celtic. There may not be myths of creatures called "elves" (or any of the variations of that word) in Italian ancient history or culture, but pretty pointy eared people were a popular motif in Roman times. I remember seeing that in a couple of frescoes and wall paintings in Pompeii, much to my amazement. Now, this isn't an exact representation of Shadowrun's metahumanity (which indeed, originally, was based on classic celt/germanic fantasy), but it is surprisingly close. None of the Germanic/Celtic dwellers of the otherworlds, fae folk, and other mythological entites in celtic mythology and folklore, has ever been mentioned to have pointy ears.

Of note is that the Orc has no reference in either ancient German or Celtic history (which was restricted to dwarves, elves, and trolls, though there neither ever was a distinctrive trait separating them, nor were those the only names used for these mythological creatures; in fact, that all descends from a prehistoric animist faith, and those creatures were expressions of nature's spirits), at least to my knowledge. The Orc is roughly derived from evil/fallen/dark elves and originally was introducted into LotR as a copunterpoint to the "good" elves by Tolkien. Since then, it has taken a different direction and become a separate mythological entity.

Also, please allow the writers of the SR sourcebooks some creative liberties. It's not like greece has to look like an ancient Roman theme park (not to mention that the cyclops was a singular entity, as was the minotaur, whcih was representative of the ancient god Minos, refered to in seveal of the region's religions, including the bible - guess who the golden calf was). Elves could well be explained away by using Satyre depictions in roman murals and ignoring those who give the "elves" goat legs or horns (or write these off as renditions of Orcs/satyres/Hobgoblins, ect.). Given a bit of suspense of disbelief, which is a good thing in roleplaying anyway, you can get Shadowrun's races and Italian/ancient Greek mythology in some sort of believable coherency.

Now, metavariants can, of course, have a higher percentage of a certain regional metahuman population; a higher-than-average percentage of regional metavariants in a certain country where they're considered "native" is only logical. But this would not mean that ALL trolls in Greece have to be cyclopses, all elves have to be dryads in Ireland, and all dwarves in Hawaii have to be menehune.

What I'd indeed like to see would be metavariants of other regions, such as Asia Minor, Central Asia, and SE Asia (as well as, maybe, some native metavariants in North America; they're not ALL of European descent there after all).

QUOTE
Most cultures have abnormally short people, too, so dwarves aren't that farfetched.

There are tribes in Papua New Guinea who are about the same size (albeit a wee bit leaner built) as SR dwarves. Size differences are about the fastest thing to evolve in secluded populations. and that doesn't even take into account genetic disabilities like dwarfism.
Luca
OK,
I've not been able to reach the forum for a while.
Synner, I got your point and sorry if I went straightly to the conclusions, probably I was rough and too simplistic but I still feel some of my ideas are reasonable.
Possibly metatypes as are you say and that's it. But I still think that for some Northern countries you based the percentage of metaraces on local legends. For example it is pretty clear that Norway has a fair amount of dwarves and trolls (which in this country are more numerous than Orcs!!!!!!) and possibly can be explained with local mythology..........but here probably starts another folkloristic fight!!!
Probably I'm wrong about my interpretation of metatypes, next times I will not say again that the principal SR races are Germanocentric but Tolkien-centric which in any case took more from Northern mythology than Classical one....but it is clear that the real division orcs-elves-dwarves is a tolkienian idea.....in any case, Hermit, the presence of pointy ears in satyrs (like those in the Boscoreale-House of the Mysteries frescos) have something to do with the fact that they are half-man and half-goats (goats have pointed ears, if you look at them!).
I've no idea if really Celtic or Germanic creatures and feys have or not pointed ears in the legends and local represenations but if they have, there could be plenty of reasons fro exchanges of ides with the GReco-ROman world.
Exchange of objects and visual models from the MEditerranean world to Northern EUrope are well attested in Greco-ROman times (the crater of Vix for example), therefore some ideas could have passed...and one must consider that the so called "Romanisation" once arrived until Britain and it could have left some signs in the local stories....but, at the end of the day, Mediterranean legends and Northern ones remains pretty different worlds.
I have no idea of any celtic representation and really I'm not so well versed in Celtic\German Archaeology like I am for CLassical Archaeology...in any case I would like to see some early representations of feys in miniatures and old books, although I really do not know how early they could be (not earlier than 17th century I guess? but I\m quite ignorant in that sense and possibly I'm saying stupidities).

I really enjoyed some parts of the Italian chapter inside SoE. The mixture of Catholic culture (good Pope, bad Curia, stereotypical ideas many italians have) and Anarchism (I see the Italian young culture in "LeonKavallo" and "Dylan DOg") is quite interesting and respondent to some Italian taste. But, in any case I still do not completely appreciate the Italina section in SoE by 100%.
I think the chapter suffered in some ways from not having being completely written by Italians, but that is probably only me.
For example I have doubts that any member of the "Medici family" is still around or is still called "Medici". Well, so often it seems that we Italians just remains fixed to the Renaissance times!
Furthermore I found the image of Mezzogiorno and Papal States quite stereotypical: did your Italian friends are all from Northern Italy? I really know a lot of Piemontesi, Liguri and LOmbardi and they really believe that we, in the SOuth, are all no-job-Mafia and Camorra slaves......
The image of Mezzogiorno, in particular, is quite depressing: it is not even clear if it is or not a Republic and if there are, or not, cities outside Naples. The so-called no productivity of Southern Italian soils are, furthermore, quite a stereotycal ideas based old prejudices and bad understanding of how things really are.
Hey, man, regions like Marche, Abruzzo or Puglia do not have certainly the space for grain cultivations like the American Midwest but their low hills are the best if you are interested in cultivating high quality olive trees or vines fro strong-taste wine which, I can tell you, are more profitable to sell than Tuscan wines (they cost less and are more sold around). Even Southern Italian pasta is more sold abroad! De Cecco have more clients in USA than Barilla, as far as I know.
Another example which I do not like is in the summery sidebar where you put the "Sicilians" as a completely different ethnic from "Italians". Well, I'm from Abruzzo which is in the Centro-South, and I could say that Sicilians (for my perspective of what Italian culture should be) definitively are more Italian than Piemontesi (too french for my tastes).
But, at the end of the day, I should say that we are all Italians.
As it said in the "Game Information" section, never confuse a NEapolitan with a Sicilian and this tells a lot about our local differences. PRobably Italy is one of the places in Europe where dialects are more different (do no counting places like UK where Welsh is a completely different language than English) but I can say for sure that after Garibaldi times (and it was 150 years ago!) we are really all Italians. I have both Piemontesi and Sicilian friends and I can confirm this.
In any case, this consideration of "Sicilians & Italians" was a bit too much out of topic, and sorry if I went to it. It was just an example.
I still enjoy SoE but I have my ideas.
Furthermore I understand that, probably, anyone from any other European region should have some complain about some part of SoE. It is pretty natural.
In any case that book is, at the end of the day, a good book. For me is much more enjoyable than SoNA, so in any case, you did well, even if faults are impossible to avoid.
If I want to put some more "Italian flavour" in my Italian runs I will put it, but you did well in giving me some broad picture on which I will built and possibly change things (for example I liked the GeMiTO idea but really I do not think that any Italian Catholic would like priestesses which seem to be allowed by the 2064 Church....but that's only my idea).
Sorry, Synner if I exagerated a bit too much on it.
Back to the real point: there is any real, official statistic about the proportions of european metavariants to normal races in Europe?
hermit
QUOTE
Furthermore I understand that, probably, anyone from any other European region should have some complain about some part of SoE. It is pretty natural.

Actually, the Germany section of SoE was a big step upwards from the rather atrocious Germany SB. Whcih was written by Germans ... so having locals work on it doesn't automatically guarantee a SB that is somewhat believable, given today's nation.
Synner
hermit - The problems with the German setting date back to the original DidS (and the very edited English-language version Germany) and are a product of the times and some misconceptions about what made SR cool - there was a lot of wierdness in the original book that made it into canon.

DidS2 (and now B:ADL) did a good job of bringing some of the excesses back in line, and SoE was our opportunity to iron out some of the remaining inconsistencies (people tend to forget at one point Germany had 4 Greats around not to mention all the metahuman kingdoms). SoE and all the recent projects have been written in close collaboration with the FanPro Germany's current batch of freelancers (Tobias Wolter and Lars Blumenstein who wrote for both SoE and Dragons of the Sixth World are FanPro D regulars) - in fact you can look at DotSW and see how the GD situation was tidied up and explained (Kaltenstein's death in the English version of Germany and the whole thing with Feuerschwinge).

Luca - The way I've explained the metatypes is simply the way they've been referenced several times in SR canon. Metatypes are human genetic traits which are activated/triggered when mana reaches a certain ambient level (the same applies to critters btw). Our legends and folklore are inspired in hold-overs from the previous age of Magic and from mini-Awakenings that occured during manaspikes which happened during the downcycle (when the mana spiked temporarily to reach the necessary level). All of this has been established and reaffirmed in canon material dating back to the original Harlequin campaign. You can take it or leave it, that's your perrogative, but this is the current canon take on these things.

Its ironic that some of the stuff you mention you don't like in the Italian chapter was material I "inherited" from previous canon sources (namely the novel Black Madonna) and was kept for continuity's sake. Stuff like the Medicis (who btw are still around today just not under that name) and the Papal States (and Venice) were established (for better or worse) years ago, and I just gave it what I thought was a twist and a believable grounding. IMHO they do contribute to underline the Renaissance-style fragmentation of Italy though.

Mezzogiorno and Papal States are quite stereotypical. I take full responsability for it (none of my Lega Nord friends had anything to do with it wink.gif ). If Mezzogiorno is depressing you should see the flak I got from my friends in Turin... regardless, this definitely feels to me like you might be getting defensive about the way your backyard was treated. I do state what industry there is agricultural based and that in fact the soil is getting increasingly productive (contrary to some people's preconceptions). As to the rest of it - well a lot of places suck in the Sixth World, Mezzogiorno isn't particularly bad its a loose federation of dropouts, utopists and maladjusted types (as the text says the perfect place to lose ourself) represented on the Confederation Council by Naples - other cities exist but they're too busy making do and getting by to worry about national government (on the upside they don't have taxes). Its a good place to introduce off-beat elements of the Sixth World rather than to run Seattle-style. In fact SOTA64's Magic chapter mentions one of the wierder groups that frequent the area.

As with every SR book you're intended to take the best and drop what you don't like. My ideas are no better than yours because they're published.

QUOTE
Furthermore I understand that, probably, anyone from any other European region should have some complain about some part of SoE. It is pretty natural.

There were some complaints (a lot of people wanted us to chuck German canon) but overall the book has gone over very well in Europe. The Brits, Germans, French are generally happy with our take on their countries (even when compared to previous canon and local sourcebooks).

QUOTE
Back to the real point: there is any real, official statistic about the proportions of european metavariants to normal races in Europe?

There is no official statistic. We kept it deliberately flexible to allow different interpretations. For what it's worth my suggestion of no more than 30% of the local metatype population stands.
Luca
OK, this means I have to stop organizing a campaign with a Cosa Nostra war against those damned Lega Nord guys.... wink.gif wherever they hide in 2064!! (Serenissima I guess?).
They can rest well!
One single question: Was you or them (Lega Nord friends) to put Sicialians as "not Italians" in the stats?
Prospero
Just my 2 nuyen.gif , but I have met a couple of Sicillians who were pretty keen to be identified as Sicilians rather than Italians. Maybe they were extreme, but that's my experience, anyway.
hermit
QUOTE
hermit - The problems with the German setting date back to the original DidS (and the very edited English-language version Germany) and are a product of the times and some misconceptions about what made SR cool - there was a lot of wierdness in the original book that made it into canon.

That about sums it up, yes. I have even, when I first read it, started to write my own, alternative Germany sourcebook - have given up years ago though. I even have it around somewhere, still ...

QUOTE
DidS2 (and now B:ADL) did a good job of bringing some of the excesses back in line, and SoE was our opportunity to iron out some of the remaining inconsistencies (people tend to forget at one point Germany had 4 Greats around not to mention all the metahuman kingdoms).

Oh yeah ... it was an attempt to force literally EVERYTHING that made Shadowrun into a country the size of Georgia. A running gag in an old, Germany-based campaign of mine was that dragons in Germany had to wear tag collars that identified them for other dragons so that those, with all the dragon traffic in the air, at least knew whom they'd run into as soon as they crawled out of their hoard.

Oh, and it was 5 Greats, but the theocrats in Munster killed one off with their leet army when it had just awoken. Uhm ... yeah ... like ... *points to discussion about killing dragons*

What happened to all these new AAA corporations in the Germany SB that made for Saeder-Krupp - described as THE dominant force in Europe in the early SR books and novels - getting a meager two paragraphs in the Rhine-Ruhr-Sprawl chapter? ZetaImpChem, AG Chemie, and what was all their names ... from what I read in my new books, only Proteus made it out, right?

QUOTE
SoE and all the recent projects have been written in close collaboration with the FanPro Germany's current batch of freelancers (Tobias Wolter and Lars Blumenstein who wrote for both SoE and Dragons of the Sixth World are FanPro D regulars) - in fact you can look at DotSW and see how the GD situation was tidied up and explained (Kaltenstein's death in the English version of Germany and the whole thing with Feuerschwinge).

You mean the mini-Tir, the dwarf duchy, the theocracy (a theocracy? In a country where, like, a third of the population is considered atheist, and most others can't be bothered to go to church even at important holdays like Easter and Ascension? A country where ministries die off in large numbers? HELLO??????), the weird little Troll kingdom, and all that, have been stomped in in later books?

Aaaanyway ... I hope Berlin was fixed ... that easily was the suckiest part of the Germany SB.

The DidS 2 and Target: ADL are fixing that? Maybe I can actually consider buying them then. If only for the cool Lofwyr vs. Feuerschwinge cover of DidS 2 ... smile.gif
Synner
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 6 2005, 11:23 PM)
What happened to all these new AAA corporations in the Germany SB that made for Saeder-Krupp - described as THE dominant force in Europe in the early SR books and novels - getting a meager two paragraphs in the Rhine-Ruhr-Sprawl chapter? ZetaImpChem, AG Chemie, and what was all their names ... from what I read in my new books, only Proteus made it out, right?

The corps are all still around and most appear in SoE's EuroCorp Top 15. Zeta-Imp Chem is Swiss-British and gets a big section in Switzerland to boot. The FBV, AG-Chemie and DeMeKO are all there, as is Proteus AG. Ruhrmetall and IFMU were considered too small to make the top corp list as was MET2000.

As you may have seen in SoE, S-K is everywhere. Sometimes openly, sometimes subtly, but Lofwyr is everywhere in Europe. There's not one chapter without a reference (oblique though it may be).

QUOTE
Aaaanyway ... I hope Berlin was fixed ... that easily was the suckiest part of the Germany SB.

That was fixed even before DidS2, and it is touched upon briefly in SoE.

QUOTE
You mean the mini-Tir, the dwarf duchy, the theocracy (a theocracy? In a country where, like, a third of the population is considered atheist, and most others can't be bothered to go to church even at important holdays like Easter and Ascension? A country where ministries die off in large numbers? HELLO??????), the weird little Troll kingdom, and all that, have been stomped in in later books?

They're still around but a lot of the excesses were curbed and the advent of the NEEC is bringing them further together even if they'd prefer not to. And losing Marienbad was a shock which is bringing all the nationalists out.

QUOTE
The DidS 2 and Target: ADL are fixing that? Maybe I can actually consider buying them then.

Yep. Lots of stuff is changing. They haven't been written off but they are evolving.

QUOTE
If only for the cool Lofwyr vs. Feuerschwinge cover of DidS 2 ... smile.gif

Actually, its Lofwyr vs. Nachtmeister (of FBV) in a battle to the death. Feuerschwinge apparent did really bite it, although DotSW has some telling revelations about her relationship with other "German" Greats - which also explains the excessive draconic population-density.
otaku mike
I think the problem with the distribution of the metatypes (and sub-metatypes) is approached from the wrong side.
Luca assumes that the metatypes should be distributed according to the Middle Age and earlier RL legends.
But that's forgetting that SR is not based on real life, especially for the old continent, but rather on Earthdawn. In SR mythos, the human legends of elfs and trolls (etc.) are old memories of the previous cycle of high mana. Distribution of metatype should rather be loosely connected to the Earthdawn era distribution than to legends based on ancient memories that are inherently very innacurate.

In a sum, my thoughts are: There are elves somewhere but no local legends mention them? That simply means that people forgot about them, but long time ago during the ED era, there was lots of elves living there.
Luca
QUOTE (Prospero @ Mar 6 2005, 06:02 PM)
Just my 2 nuyen.gif , but I have met a couple of Sicillians who were pretty keen to be identified as Sicilians rather than Italians. Maybe they were extreme, but that's my experience, anyway.

Bloody Sicilian separatists...........................................................................
Luca
QUOTE (otaku mike @ Mar 6 2005, 11:17 PM)

But that's forgetting that SR is not based on real life, especially for the old continent, but rather on Earthdawn.

Ok, I`m not a Earthdawn player, but this does not means that I cannot play SR the way I like it.
otaku mike
Did I say anything that forbids you to play SR the way you like it?
No.
But your original complaint was about the game as it is canonically. So I offered an explanation to its current state.
mfb
it's actually the other way around: ED is based on SR. and even that isn't really true, anymore.
hermit
Only because both game are held by different companies now.
Luca
ok Otaku, no prob.
torzzzzz
Played both, and I must admit I prefer SR more not to say it is not a good game!

torz x
Luca
OK, I reply to this topic after so much time.
Looking again to "Paranormal animals of Europe" I found that in page 122 it is said that ogres are the "most common form of ork in continental Europe".
I understand that "continental" is the opposite of England and Tir Na Nog and so,
possibly, continental are countries like Germany, Poland and France. I have doubts if this includes Southern European places like Italy and Greece since in Italy when we say "continentale" we refer to central Europe.
What do you Americans mean with "Continental Europe"?
BIG BAD BEESTE
Hiya there Luca (and wotcha there Synner & fellow dumpshockers - its been a while) just going to stick my oar in the water.

OK, first up Paranormal Animals of Europe was mainly written via a British perspective (methinks it was Carl Sergeant & Marc Gascoigne - the duo responsible for London & Tir na nOg sourcebooks, not to mention the novels Streets of Blood, Nosferatu & Black Madona). Theres details about Greece in there via the shadowtalkers although not much to base current Sixth World society on, but at least they attempted to give it a bit of flavour. Unfortunately the not enough space in SoE meant that the Greek chapter was shelved with a mention by those Powers That Be, that it would be a good topic to include in a Target: Awakened Lands 2. A shame because that draft had oodles of great stuff.

Anyhow as to the metahuman varient distribution question. As Synner has already mentioned metahuman expression is based upon dormant genetics in 5th World humanity. Now, in the last age of magic (Earthdawn = 4th World) there were localised "species" for various places around the world, which are the source of all those colourful types of mythology and legends. Its the isolation factor, same with the different "racial" traits of today's homo sapiens - coloured skin, arian eyes & hair, redheads, medditereanean features, etc. Standard Darwinisian laws of evolution - a lifeform adapts to its environment until eventualy it becomes a different species but linked by a common ancestor.

Now consider that all the old tales and legends mentioned these distinct cultural species, but in the seperating centuries/millenia the populations of these locations has interbred with non-locals, travelled or migrated to different areas, or even been subjected to depletion whether by natural disaster, wars, disesease, famine or genocide. This is especially so in European history and the main instigators was in fact the Roman Empire - they conquored new territories across Europe and then took the natives into the legions and as slaves and redeployed them in new countries to reduce their chances of rebellion. This has somewhat diluted the pure strains of those ancient local genentics and so therefore the metahuman varients unique to those regions in the past can theoretically crop up anywhere in the Sixth World - with the colonial expansions and current globalisation of society this is more than a plausable reason of why specific mythological metatypes appear in cultures that have no relation to their ancestral legends.

OK, I'll grant you that if a culture is still strong in its original location there will be a higher than ususal percentage of the local metevarients being dominant, but overall the percentages are for the national average. However, its up to you to decide what the environment will be like in your games. I personally like the idea of troll being the strange local expressions instead of minotaurs.

You can even say the same thing about magical traditions, after all shamanism in SR was basically a Native American concept, but whats to prevent a japanese buisenessman becoming one if that's his destiny?
Crimsondude 2.0
Because Native American shamanism in all likelihood is believed to be anthropologically tied to Siberian samans and medicine men of Asia?
Luca
I understood that near all Orks in Germany are ogres (at least according to 2nd edition Paranormal Animals).
Ok, I re-do my question to british people: Are Southern Europeans "continental" or not?
Therefore the great part oforks in Italy are Ogres or not?
BIG BAD BEESTE
Well, practically anyone who lives in Europe rather in the British Isles are termed as continentals to us. Primarily though, I guess we generally refer to continentals as those from France, Germany, Italy and Spain - although the latter two and Greeks get coined more accurately as Medditerraneans, and the northern European inhabitants are usually called Scandinavians. Oh and the Irish are the Irish, Scottish are Scottish and Welsh are just depressing biggrin.gif
Lung Han
QUOTE (Ancient History)
"Germanocentric?" That's a new one on me, chummer.

I can understand a desire for the Grecian metavariants to be more prominent.

Also, Satyrs are an ork metavariant, not a dwarf metavariant.

The ogre and hobgoblin metavariants do have a mythological basis, but I wouldn't say they're based solely on DnD critters.

Btw. where do Orcs come from? did they have their first appearnce in Tolkiens Books? Or ist there actually som kind of folklore myth around them?

Before I read The Lord of the Rings, I've never heard of them, only of Ogres or Man-Eaters...

Is someone here who can answer that?
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