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Luca
As an European I have always wondered how the Ghost Dance was possible.
Personally, I`m a bit sceptic about that.
I mean, I can pretty understand that catastrophes & magic power (and the relative "lack of magic" for the anglos) can destroy a nation (the usa) but to build up new nations you need people.
I understand that in many NAN old Anglos converted to Native American lifestyles or simply lived together with Indians in their old cities but, at the end of the day, you still need A LOT of native americans to be around.
So, the core of my question is: how is it possible?
I`m a European so I do not know anything about the percentage of Native Americans still around in USA but, from the little information I have, they are not so many.
Can anyone tell me if I`m wrong?
Can anyone give me some better ideas of how many Americans are now (March 2005!!!) not of European/Asian/African descent but have Native AMerican blood in their veins???
DrJest
I don't have the figures (British myself) but I do seem to recall that the populations got skewed; there was an American president (jarman?) who was way racist and confined all the Amerinds to concentration camps; ironically that meant they got skipped by the worst of VITAS et al, so their post-apocalypse population level was a greater percentage than the pre-apocalypse one.
Critias
According to this, there aren't very many American Indians, no. Nor are there likely to be. But, well, anyone that's studied history can say the same thing.

It's always been one of the weakest points of their gritty future, to me -- such an amazingly large amount of land handed over to so very very few people, coupled by the fact those few people don't all revert to their neo-trendy ancient nomadic lifestyle, they instead just squat in the gutted remains of the cities they inherited, for the most part trying to live just like the people they kicked out (only living just like them with a little face paint on). They supposedly maintain modern armies, etc, etc, all with a fraction of a fraction of the overall head count.
Slacker
For the most part, there is a very low percentage of American Indians in the us. However there are certain areas where there are still large concentrations. Take a look at this map from the census bureau that shows some regions, especiallly in alaska to have 60% or more native americans: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/mapGallery/i...ricanindian.jpg
hermit
The number of pure-blood - or at least 75% pure blood - natives in the states is dwindling, but if the NAN adopted a policy like the Nazis did to what made a Jew - third-degree relation, meaning one jewish grandparent makes you a jew, then a whole lot of Americans suddenly become Natives. And except for the really hardcore Natives, I'd guess most would accept that approach, if only to have some population - and some educated people - for their newly formed NAN.

Not to mention that Jarman might have taken a similar approach as to who would end up in one of his concentration camps (a part opf UCAS history I see way undervalued, given the background count Nazi death camps have), making those people suddenly associate with their native heritage much the same way western Europe's (mostly assimilated) Nazi-defined Jews rediscoveered their jewishness after the Nazis' excesses.

Also, a ritual called Great Ghost Dance is regularily performed by some disgruntled natives in one of the poor, casino-less reservations, so they already are familiar with the basic idea.

As for the lack of magic among non-native Americans ... well, unless we assume that magic, as such, has a bias against christianity-based shamanic/idolic approaches, I see there's plenty of people performing rituals that could, in the world of SR, be considered to belong to a more intuitive approach of magic. If singing a song to racoon will make a spell, I don't see why a prayer to god won't do the same. But that's just me.
mfb
my theory has always been that amerindian genes are more strongly linked to magical ability than, say, anglo-saxon genes; them thar injuns are born with better magic than us white folk. this works both ways: with the return of magic, amerind genes were made more dominant. this line of reasoning is certain to boil the braincells of anybody versed in genetics, but hell--it's magic.

the end result is, more people looked like injuns after 2011. when the amerinds began to rise to power, many of them saw the writing on the wall and proclaimed themselves 1/16 cheyenne, or whatever; with the breakup of the US, hundreds of thousands of records slipped between the cracks, and the new injun nations probably weren't looking too closely at birth records anyway. thus, you get lots and lots of injuns, where none existed before.
DrJest
That's devious, evil, malicious, manipulative... In short, great SR.
hermit
QUOTE
my theory has always been that amerindian genes are more strongly linked to magical ability than, say, anglo-saxon genes; them thar injuns are born with better magic than us white folk.

Interesting theory. But, Europeans, especially Irish, seem to actually be more connected to magic - both via metagenes (elves, anyone) and via a stronger affinity towards magic ... maybe the Anglos in North America just aren't in the right place, where their magical abilities will duely be activated?
DrJest
Oh, I almost forgot - Daniel Howling Coyote was taught the Great Ghost Dance by someone else. I think it's mentioned in passing in the Aztlan sourcebook by the various "spectators"; one of them wonders who taught him, but nobody raises their hand to it.
hermit
Someone interested in the Horrors getting into the world before the world can prepare. My money's on Aina's little half-horror bastard.
Dog
Great idea, mfb. Mind if I take it a step farther?
Say mana does favor the genes of one race over another, but which race it favors depends on the area. ie: If you're half aboriginal and half Italian, and you're born in Denver, your aboriginal genes will have the magic backing to be dominant. If the same guy had been born in Europe, he'd appear more Italian. If he was born in New Zealand, I dunno. Maybe that's why Italians look Italian.
As for the way things are around here in my part of the real world, whether or not you're considered aboriginal depends largely on whether or not you say you are. There's enough genetic integration going on that lots of people you just can't tell. So the factionalization would be more of a principle thing for most people. Do I stand up to the man and proclaim that part of my heritage, or jump on the bandwagon and save my own ass? Could be possible, you know, except for the magic and stuff.
Fortune
QUOTE (DrJest)
Oh, I almost forgot - Daniel Howling Coyote was taught the Great Ghost Dance by someone else. I think it's mentioned in passing in the Aztlan sourcebook by the various "spectators"; one of them wonders who taught him, but nobody raises their hand to it.

Check Worlds Without End for info on that. Aina's half-Horror son, Thais was involved.
Crimsondude 2.0
"Someone else" being Thais.

Also, in covering their asses halfway instead of rewriting a history most current SR players know little about (PCC, though, isn't quite as batshit fucking crazy as it is in NAN v1), SoNA also mentioned that because Aztlan was a part of the NAN (How? Why? This is why I think Nigel Findley is incredibly overrated as an author) that anyone who was Hispanic (apparently everything south of the U.S.=Mexican) qualified as "Indians" and didn't have to leave. And, frankly, I can't imagine why they'd want to.

But then that brings us to this tidbit: If that was true, Mexicans would outnumber Pueblos in PCC by about 5-to-1. Which makes the entire premise of PCC, well, let's use an appropriate word, shall we? How about... Retarded?
mfb
QUOTE (hermit)
Interesting theory. But, Europeans, especially Irish, seem to actually be more connected to magic

possibly. but note that european culture embraced reason and science in over spirituality, whereas the injuns stayed spiritual and backwards until they learned the joy and power of whiskey.
hahnsoo
Bah, we Asians have the market cornered on magic, so nyeah.
Herald of Verjigorm
Hmm... drunk Irishmen having magic, drunk pre-colonial Americans having magic...

The key isn't genetic, it's booze!!!
hahnsoo
And to think, all those years the Anglos were selling the key to magic to the Native Americans...
torzzzzz
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Hmm... drunk Irishmen having magic, drunk pre-colonial Americans having magic...

The key isn't genetic, it's booze!!!

And the pox I seem to remember from History, but that was over 10 years ago!

torz x spin.gif
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 7 2005, 05:39 PM)
"Someone else" being Thais.

Also, in covering their asses halfway instead of rewriting a history most current SR players know little about (PCC, though, isn't quite as batshit fucking crazy as it is in NAN v1), SoNA also mentioned that because Aztlan was a part of the NAN (How? Why? This is why I think Nigel Findley is incredibly overrated as an author) that anyone who was Hispanic (apparently everything south of the U.S.=Mexican) qualified as "Indians" and didn't have to leave. And, frankly, I can't imagine why they'd want to.

But then that brings us to this tidbit: If that was true, Mexicans would outnumber Pueblos in PCC by about 5-to-1. Which makes the entire premise of PCC, well, let's use an appropriate word, shall we? How about... Retarded?

I believe that was because Aztlan sided with the NAN during their formative troubles. It wasn't that all Aztlaners were considered Amerinds, but since Aztlan was playing nice at that point, they were included as an ally nation in the various treaties and whatnot, IIRC.

However, then Aztlan started acting like Aztlan, and those feel good days are over (although it's been a long time since I've ready any of that, so my memory is a little fuzzy).
Demonseed Elite
Census numbers-wise, it's not really possible, no. I mean, if you look at the populations of the NAN nation-states, they are grossly larger than even a generous projection of current Native American population.

One way I've gotten around it in my own head is reasoning that the NAN widely accepted Hispanics, not considering them "Anglo" for the most part. Since Hispanics have a much larger population and is the fastest growing population in the United States, it gives a lot more leeway.

mfb's idea is interesting. I'd never really thought of anything like that, but it could explain some of the oddly skewed populations in the Sixth World.
Method
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
"Someone else" being Thais.

Also, in covering their asses halfway instead of rewriting a history most current SR players know little about (PCC, though, isn't quite as batshit fucking crazy as it is in NAN v1), SoNA also mentioned that because Aztlan was a part of the NAN (How? Why? This is why I think Nigel Findley is incredibly overrated as an author) that anyone who was Hispanic (apparently everything south of the U.S.=Mexican) qualified as "Indians" and didn't have to leave. And, frankly, I can't imagine why they'd want to.

But then that brings us to this tidbit: If that was true, Mexicans would outnumber Pueblos in PCC by about 5-to-1. Which makes the entire premise of PCC, well, let's use an appropriate word, shall we? How about... Retarded?

I happen to work with native american populations (i was on "the rez" just this weekend, actually) and a very high proportion of native americans have some hispanic blood now a days. Pure blooded natives are actually few and far between- thanks to european genocide.

But i think the point is that it doesn't matter how many people there were in the begining; They forced an almost unconditional surrender on the US- they got what ever they wanted and they wanted a shit ton of land.
Kanada Ten
I think Aztlan left the NAN over the STC's censuring their treatment of native Mexicans.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 7 2005, 05:46 PM)
QUOTE (DrJest @ Mar 8 2005, 09:18 AM)
Oh, I almost forgot - Daniel Howling Coyote was taught the Great Ghost Dance by someone else. I think it's mentioned in passing in the Aztlan sourcebook by the various "spectators"; one of them wonders who taught him, but nobody raises their hand to it.

Check Worlds Without End for info on that. Aina's half-Horror son, Thais was involved.

Actually, you're all wrong. It was that injun guy that used to go on Art Bell way back when.

edit: He was always talking about a Great Ghost Dance.
Fortune
Uh huh!
Mortax
I just always assumed Coyote taught him the dance. smile.gif He is both the great magician and the Trickster. Or possibly the Passion (from ED) that was the Trickster. smile.gif

Danial was a Coyote shaman. smile.gif

Or, I could just be pulling legs. smile.gif

Crimson Jack
Yeah... I play the NAN role down quite a bit in my campaign. I don't change the way its written, I just don't make every other slot an amerind. I find the whole idea pretty hokey and the only thing that I question its merit in such a cool system.
FlakJacket
Didn't the books say that anyone with native ancestry could become a citizen - basically if you've got the right parents your in? With SIN's and the much greater usage of DNA scans for things like ID checks, you'd be bound to catch a lot more people with native blood than you would today that have the minimum DNA percentage to become NAN citizens. IIRC the tribal records were fairly spotty - a lot of mixed race natives specifically tried to make sure that they weren't down on them in the past due to things like racism and other discriminatory policies. Of course now people fall over themselves to prove it if there's any casino money involved. smile.gif

Anyone remember if the Anglo reservations, ah the irony, would have been included in the updated population numbers?

QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (hermit)
Interesting theory. But, Europeans, especially Irish, seem to actually be more connected to magic

Possibly. But note that European culture embraced reason and science in over spirituality, whereas the injuns stayed spiritual and backwards until they learned the joy and power of whiskey.

So same as the Celts over here as well then - the Irish, Scots and Welsh. wink.gif Funny thing though, apparently there's bugger all real DNA difference between those of Celtic descent and everybody else. At least that's what the university study I read a while back said. As for the Irish thing, I think that's more to do with the IE's that pull the strings round there being more 'in tune with' or just more knowledgeable about magic.

QUOTE (Mortax)
I just always assumed Coyote taught him the dance.  smile.gif

Nope, it was Thais. In a way. Apparently he taught it to the natives in 1889 which led to them attempting the very first Great Ghost Dance- it fizzled due to the ambient mana levels not being high enough and the natives got slaughtered. On the second go round I figure it was a combination of remembered rituals, Thais either directly or indirectly (though apparent visions or dreams) passing the information along again and the Ehran/Walter Brightwater connection.
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Luca)
Can anyone give me some better ideas of how many Americans are now (March 2005!!!) not of European/Asian/African descent but have Native AMerican blood in their veins???

Less than 1% of Americans can claim Tribal Descent and get any benefit from it.
As for partial native ancenstry... Very hard to say, it depends on region. In the South there are quite a few people who consider themselves (and are considered by others) white who are up to 1/4 Cherokee. On the other hand, this wouldn't fly in North Florida and Georgia if someone was considered "part Seminole". In general though, Native populations have been affected more by the influx Euro-American genes than vice-versa. You should look up the BIA website if you want precise demographics though.

From a realism standpoint, the whole Ghost Dance and what came after was pretty laughable. To make the NAN work you should probably assume there are a whole bunch of Kevin Costner types running around.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (CanvasBack @ Mar 8 2005, 12:48 AM)
To make the NAN work you should probably assume there are a whole bunch of Kevin Costner types running around.

Which is where the derogatory term "Pinkskins" comes in, I belive.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
As for partial native ancenstry... Very hard to say, it depends on region. In the South there are quite a few people who consider themselves (and are considered by others) white who are up to 1/4 Cherokee.


It also depends on each tribal nation's laws about claiming tribal membership. Even today, these vary dramtically from one to another. It's funny you mention Cherokee, because they have one of the least restrictive setups. It was a joke among my native friends that anyone could claim to be Cherokee. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
One way I've gotten around it in my own head is reasoning that the NAN widely accepted Hispanics, not considering them "Anglo" for the most part.  Since Hispanics have a much larger population and is the fastest growing population in the United States, it gives a lot more leeway.

Yes, but for that to work you have to ignore the concentration of settled Latin American population in California, and that the fastest growth rates are in what would be non-NAN states.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE
As for partial native ancenstry... Very hard to say, it depends on region. In the South there are quite a few people who consider themselves (and are considered by others) white who are up to 1/4 Cherokee.


It also depends on each tribal nation's laws about claiming tribal membership. Even today, these vary dramtically from one to another. It's funny you mention Cherokee, because they have one of the least restrictive setups. It was a joke among my native friends that anyone could claim to be Cherokee. wink.gif

I'm sure they also had a blast describing just how advanced they were compared to the Anglos in the 19th century pre-Trail and post. There's something karmically-neutral about seeing a photo of a brick Cherokee building in western Oklahoma next to a picture of the beat-ass wodden shack of a U.S. federal courthouse, and considering who was calling whom "savage."

QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Didn't the books say that anyone with native ancestry could become a citizen - basically if you've got the right parents your in?

Not exactly. Each NAN country set their own criteria for admission. Some were loose (PCC), and same are pretty strict (Ute, Sioux).

QUOTE
IIRC the tribal records were fairly spotty - a lot of mixed race natives specifically tried to make sure that they weren't down on them in the past due to things like racism and other discriminatory policies. Of course now people fall over themselves to prove it if there's any casino money involved. smile.gif

Anyone remember if the Anglo reservations, ah the irony, would have been included in the updated population numbers?

Not for a lack of trying are they spotty--at best. But the problem is that there are tribes which for one reason or another aren't recognized. Once they are, though, they are allowed to set their own membership criteria, even determining who can pass along membership to children. One of the interesting things is how arbitrary the recognition process can be, or at least, seem to be. I had a Yaqui professor. They were only recognized about ten years ago. Some tribes aren't recognized even though they are related to U.S. tribes because they're on the wrong side of the Mexican border, or most of them are. Some just aren't for internal and external reasons, like the Southern Isleta. I know people who are full-blood Indian, but whose tribes aren't recognized, much to their chargrin, as well as some resentment at the fact that this government doesn't consider them Native. The interesting thing is, when the Re-Education Camps went up, the most immediate source of information on who to round up was in which tribes were federally-recognized.

As for the reservations--Don't know. But I find it hard to believe they are more like the western compounds in Saudi than RL native reservations. It's kind of hard to run a nice SOTA compound when the Sioux Nation hasn't gotten around to re-connecting those power lines.

QUOTE (Method)
I happen to work with native american populations (i was on "the rez" just this weekend, actually) and a very high proportion of native americans have some hispanic blood now a days.  Pure blooded natives are actually few and far between- thanks to european genocide. 

I wouldn't presume to call everything done around here in the last 400 years "genocide." But I recognize that. My point has nothing to do with that. My point had to do with why Latinos were legally grandfathered into NAN citizenship in the first place.
CanvasBack
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 8 2005, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE
As for partial native ancenstry... Very hard to say, it depends on region. In the South there are quite a few people who consider themselves (and are considered by others) white who are up to 1/4 Cherokee.


It also depends on each tribal nation's laws about claiming tribal membership. Even today, these vary dramtically from one to another. It's funny you mention Cherokee, because they have one of the least restrictive setups. It was a joke among my native friends that anyone could claim to be Cherokee. wink.gif

It also explains why they are known as "The White Man's Indian" by other tribes in Oklahoma. After arriving in Oklahoma via the Trail of Tears, some of the more affluent families re-established what they had been doing in Northern Georgia and Tennessee for many years, plantation farming using African slaves... Yeah, there is a credibility gap there I suppose. The biggest joke is the Mashantucket Peqot. Genetically speaking, these folks are either Euro American or African American but they managed to get the Connecticut legislature to recognize them as a tribe that was thought to have been wiped out in the, get this, 17th century. The motivating factor? Money, of course, they started the tribal casino gambling trend.

It's somewhat interesting that many of the tribes maintain their warfare sodalities, initiation pretty much requires signing up for the U.S. military, the level of irony involved does depend on the tribe... twirl.gif

If you're looking for tribes that don't interact much with outsiders, the Hopi rank pretty high. They're quite bitter with Anglos and Navajos (who prefer Diné, BTW) over how the boundaries got drawn concerning both tribes' reservations. Even Taos Pueblo can be very aloof (putting it mildly), and they run a Ski Resort...

The main thing is, even if the Federal government set a universal standard for being a Native American (They only recognize tribes they had a treaty with and the BIA lets the tribes determine membership standards, which vary widely), that population would be ridiculously small compared to the rest of the poplation.
DrJest
QUOTE
The biggest joke is the Mashantucket Peqot. Genetically speaking, these folks are either Euro American or African American but they managed to get the Connecticut legislature to recognize them as a tribe that was thought to have been wiped out in the, get this, 17th century. The motivating factor? Money, of course, they started the tribal casino gambling trend.


I'm seeing "Cascade Ork" written all over that one...
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Yes, but for that to work you have to ignore the concentration of settled Latin American population in California, and that the fastest growth rates are in what would be non-NAN states.


True, it assumes a lot of moving around during the succession of California, the formation of the NAN, and the development of Aztlan.
audun
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
True, it assumes a lot of moving around during the succession of California, the formation of the NAN, and the development of Aztlan.

Makes sense: Live in the LA slums/Aztlan or get free land in NAN due to your indian blood. Hard choice isn't it? (IIRC lots and lots of Mexicans have Indian-blood, far more than in the US or Canada).
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, and despite Aztlan propaganda, the native Indians of Mexico are treated very poorly by the Aztlan government. I imagine there'd be a steady immigration north to the NAN states.
DrJest
QUOTE
IIRC lots and lots of Mexicans have Indian-blood, far more than in the US or Canada


Definitely worth pointing that out. Us non-Americans tend to forget that "Native American" really covers both continents as opposed to just the USA.
Luca
Well, after al of this I can understand that the following issues are widely felt:

1) the building of the NAN is quite an unprobable thing if though in terms of pure Native race
2) Probably someone must be added but who? Various groups can be listed: Latinos, Awakened, Metahumans, yippie-pinkskins, possibly people simply living there and that for particular reasons were never exiled (the mormons in the UTE nation, for ex.), people who were made "NAtive" by law even if they have no native blood, etc..

So, what is the official answer to all of this impossibility of the NAN? I can understand that much of this has been written by people in the `80 which are no more writing SR today, but some official explanation must be around.
Demonseed Elite
Pages 14-16 in Shadows of North America are the only real official explanation. And, in many ways, it's similar to what we're saying here.
mfb
those anglo reservations are great. ever want to run a Fistful of Dollars scenario? anglo rez. need a town to get taken over by zombies? anglo rez. want a freaky brainwashing cult? anglo rez.
Little Bill
While it may take people to build a nation, it only takes force to create one on the maps and in the treaties.

Why didn't the NANs revert to strictly native american traditions? Maybe because they were all the product of a modern society and didn't want to give up things like blue jeans and pickup trucks.
mmu1
Aside from the silliness of NAN demographics, the bigger problem by far is the idea that a bunch of tribal shamans would have actually been able to stand up to the US armed forces.

I don't care how strong a magician you are, unless you're a great dragon or an IE, a 2000lb guided bomb launched from miles away is going to turn you into a greasy spot on the bottom of a smoking crater.
Crimsondude 2.0
And the infighting.
Prospero
QUOTE (mmu1)
Aside from the silliness of NAN demographics, the bigger problem by far is the idea that a bunch of tribal shamans would have actually been able to stand up to the US armed forces.

I don't care how strong a magician you are, unless you're a great dragon or an IE, a 2000lb guided bomb launched from miles away is going to turn you into a greasy spot on the bottom of a smoking crater.

It sure will - if it hits where you are. I imagine the NAN war to be a geurilla war. There have been references to U.S. citizens (non-natives and natives, I suppose) hiding troops during the war and to the major leaders like Howling Coyote moving around all the time a la Iraqi insurgent groups and al-Qieda (sp?). Just look at those groups for an example - given Ghost-Dance level mojo that no one knows about or understands, they'd be a major threat. Plus, you'd have to worry about killing LOTS of good taxpaying, red-blooded American citizens - you can bet the NAN soldiers weren't just out in the boonies. Look at how much collateral damage Israel produces when it shoots even small missles at Hamas members in the occupied territories.

I bet that a lot of those people who hid NAN soldiers during the Ghost Dance War, got grandfathered into the NAN nations if they wanted, too, just on general principle and hearsay - a group of ex-soliders spoke up about how helpful they were and BANG! they're in.

Yeah, I acknowledge that the whole NAN thing is pretty far-fetched, but there is just some inherited material you have to live with. I think the writers did a good job of making it as believable as possible in SoNA.
mfb
yeah. it wasn't "a bunch of tribal forces". they destroyed the entire 6th cavalry brigade with tornadoes. that is, at last count, ~60 apache helicopters. (it was also my unit, during my enlistment--go NAN!)
audun
QUOTE (mmu1)
Aside from the silliness of NAN demographics, the bigger problem by far is the idea that a bunch of tribal shamans would have actually been able to stand up to the US armed forces.

I don't care how strong a magician you are, unless you're a great dragon or an IE, a 2000lb guided bomb launched from miles away is going to turn you into a greasy spot on the bottom of a smoking crater.

I disagree.
They actually was able to make a long dead volcano erupt. Who knows what else they might have done? The power of the Great Ghost Dance was indeed even more than that of an single IE or dragon.

Demographics is still the biggest problem with NAN.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Prospero @ Mar 8 2005, 01:55 PM)
Plus, you'd have to worry about killing LOTS of good taxpaying, red-blooded American citizens - you can bet the NAN soldiers weren't just out in the boonies.

I'm sure the government really gave a fuck.

This is a government that forcibly interned millions of its own citizens for the actions of a small group, and then responded to their actions with significant military force. I don't doubt, not for a second, that the government would have been willing to kidnap, kill, "disappear" or otherwise do anything and everything to kill SAIM members, even if it meant ignoring the law. If the USG is willing, capable, and has engaged in the act of disappearing citizens NOW, I have no doubt that they'd be willing to destroy cities if that's what it took. IIRC, they sent tanks into Denver. The only thing that really shocks me is that even when Tyee's forces took the sub base in Bangor, the military didn't nuke the shit out of it just to be sure.

Anyway, I'm not exactly pleased with its existence. But I don't care too much. It's background noise, and I figured a long time ago not to really question it too much because you do get a significant number of problems that would take an encyclopedia to resolve about who is in, who survived, where they went, why all the magic is the same, etc.

It's like debating the existence of magic--one more fantasy element to deal with.
Nikoli
Massive breeding programs? Remember, what was it like 40% of the US population aside from the Native Americans were wiped out by VITAS, etc.? those that were left were still shaken by that loss I'd imagine. It's incredibly demoralizing, couple that with access to nukes and you do have a force that can reckon with a weakening central government that is being pressured by it's corporate masters to end the costly conflict quickly and get back to slashing taxes on corporate holdings in lieu of cushy 7 figure jobs.
Crimsondude 2.0
40%

Where did you get that number?
Nikoli
it originated from betwixt my left and right cheek
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