The thought here, is that if the entire matrix goes down, so do those wonders of technology, AI. Except of course that there's the network. Which begs the question, where does the matrix start and end?

Also, how many here think it would be logical to see Mirage, Alice, Magenta, Dues, Isis-9, and every other trumped up knowbot crawl out of the woodwork to try and put paid to whoever's crashing the 'trix? (Smart money's on Winternight.)

You mean Mageara? And Alice isn't exactly an AI.

People keep bringing up Winternight.

Ever wonder if all the AI's clashing could do it?

I blame Obsidimen. And Horrors. ANd T'Skrang. And D20.

Hard to tell without further information.
The matrix crash doesn't nessecarily mean all data will be lost, just that the system as a whole looses it's functionality. So the AIs could survive the crash.

Hunting down whoever could be responsible for the crash wouldn't help at all, nor would it change anything. I'd imagine the AIs would be pragmatic about it.

But as a side note: What will become of the Otaku?

They'll cry.

Shame.
I always liked them as NPCs and story anchors, although I never liked the idea of them as PCs. 12 year olds just don't make good members of a professional crew of shadowrunners if roleplayed properly. Kinda like Kenders in Dragonlance. You love them in the books and if they appear occasionaly during the game, but if you have one in your party they drive you nuts at best and get you killed at worst

Completely agree.


But my Uncle Trapspringer said once...

You guys are making tons of assumptions here The question is, are any of them correct?

well, we've just have nothing better to do is all.

New flaw: bad case of acne -1

Considering that Otaku don't fade 'till 21 (which seems dumb to me, but kind of a mute point now) it's entirly possible that there will still be viable Otaku after the crash.

Well, true

Not that I know all the details (Or would tell you if I did ), I'm just warning ya'll not to make too many assumptions.

I'm already seeing people saying "It looks like they'll do X with the new edition" based on... Err... I don't know what. All I'm saying is... Speculation is fine. Assumptions will lead to possible dissapointment. Or gloating if you were right. ANd that just ain't pretty

Besides... Harley did it. With the Panther. In Club Penumbra.

Bull

sneaky clown

Harley in Penumbra with a Panther...

That's bound to be a messy scene.





Or a funny one.

It's going to be the Otakus' very own Human Instrumentality Project. After the crash, someone is going to walk into one of the old tribe hangouts and wonder why there's Tang all over the floor.

For all we know there could be any number of unknown factors rearing they're ugly heads. There's been what 3 or 4 years without any novels or side stories. There's the stories published on Shadowrunrpg but besides that there's no telling what's going behind the scenes?

Possibly they could tie into Gencon and Origins tournements? I dunno I've not been to an origins since 93'. Not to mention what sort of background material Rob possibly has been working on or an associate writer. Hell we don't really know who's even writing the books? We have possibly Threats 2 for some leads but we really don't know.

I'm putting my money on Deus but that's the most obvious and easy choice. I'd guess it's more complex. I wonder though how the world's financial markets and Zurich Orbital would handle a crash? What sort of backup would there be and what sort of financial reprecussions would there be? If the matrix is anything like the Internet is now a major crash would literly cripple the world's financial market possibly calling all sorts of socioeconmic upheavel. There could be some NAN wars, or border conflicts. Food riots, and massive depression. Who knows. I have a feeling it's going to be some interesting reading.

I think the Otaku are just pawns. No theres something bigger going on probably bigger than Deus. One thing though that would be interesting is what would happen if an Otaku or other decker was inhabited by something like a Shedheim or other spirit. You could have some really freaky $hit going on in the matrix. The possibilites are endless.

.....Hell it could be the return of Gary Coleman, super hacker AI...Destroyer of Worlds......Ravenger of Security Guards........The eater of pop tarts......

Who said the matrix goes down?

There's no mention of a worldwide matrix failure in the System Failure entry in the '05 FanPro catalogue available at Battlecorps.com. "Apocalyptic terrorists", "a struggling megacorp", "an AI thought to be dead," "the biggest shakeup the Shadowrun universe has seen in decades".

But nothing about a global matrix failure.

Also reread the SR4 announcement. It says:

The year is 2070 ­five years since the System Failure took down the old Matrix, nine years since the passing of the comet unleashed wild and unexplained magic in the world.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=7659

Nahh. They're good people. They're happy and shiney and friendly and would never do such a thing. Really!

Bull

Riiiiight. And the computer is your friend too, I bet.

I thought sprites bite......Or maybe that's the fairies.

Sure they look all innocent in they're beedy little eyes and cute little shoes....

I'm hoping something big and nasty gets loose in Tir Nan Og and starts chomping on the dandelion eaters. Immortal elves remind me of spoiled rich kids like the Hilton twins ect. They need a good smacking around.

*grumbles* Fragging Kenders... THEY broke the matrix!

Remember, just because the matrix went down, dosent mean that every computer connected to it did too. For all we know 2000 otaku got tougther and did the digital equivelent of the great ghost dance and blew the whole damm place up.

Kryton: Good point about the SR4 announcement...but "took down" is a fairly elastic term. It doesn't necessarily mean an extinction-level event/new dark age size catastrophe.

We really dont' know the scope of the event. That's true but I'm guessing it might be a big one as they're totally revamping the rigger and decker rules. Who knows. It could be as big as the 29' crash maybe bigger? We'll just have to wait and see. I'm guessing it's going to be a big event mainly because the timeline is 5 years later and there's a 2.0 matrix. I'm not talking cataclysm(msp?) think more along historical terms.....Think 1920's.

I'm thinking in terms of what would happen if nodes were attacked as they went online. I'm not saying there's going to be a new dark age. I'm using more recent facts like what happend with the Stock market crash or a major corporate break up. Basically financial markets are based on reliance on communications. Loss of trust in that infrastructure creates instability in the market. When all money, information, and knowledge is digital; and that medium crashes or is brought down your cutting off a major mode of commerce. Money is digital, loose trust in the digital infrastructure and consumer confidence starts to go down. Folks start demanding hard currency, banks have to close they’re doors and financial institutions can go bankrupt or default. There’s not going to be a dark age, more like a depression of sorts. Those sorts of events have a way of imprinting themselves on the psyche's of those who live through them. If I had a quarter for everytime my gradfather told me about the depression and the cost of bread I'd be rich.

Only not quite dead in the net

I'll ask again: What is she?

I know who Alice Haeffner was. Alice Haeffner is also dead, and AFAIK buried.

Unless you assume the existence of the soul, and the idea that it can transfer onto the Matrix, she's an AI-- an electronic equivalent based on her memories and psychological profile.

And use the Edit button next time.

She's a very powerfull omnipotent "Duck". And Hey Crimson what's wrong with Stephen Kenson?

he has an amazing talent for writing poorly-worded, confusing rules--exactly what SR doesn't need. he tends to make magic more touchy-feely and less logical; i think it should be more balanced. he's pushed otaku towards being Awakened, which is an idea i personally despise.

I dunno I kind of dig that. I think too often science tends to focus on the logic and the postivistic rationale taking all the wonder and mystery out of things. I kind of like that approach and think it adds something positive to the game.

i don't think touchy-feely should be the only answer, though. i think it takes something away from the game if you disallow a more logical approach. i think both should work, in other words, not just one or the other.

That's true. I guess it gets into the different traditions.

Kryton: Right, that's what I mean regarding the matrix failure -- it's not going to be a total end-of-civilization thing, like the old Cold War model of after-the-bomb. But, like you say, more analogous to the fall of the Iron Curtain or the Stock Market Crash of '29 in far-reaching effects.

Ultimately we're going to see some form of literary "Deus Ex Machina".

Wow. Lots of hate for Steve Kenson.

Hey, Steve, if you reading this, I think Mutant & Mastermind rocks!

OH, my utter contempt for Kenson doesn't let the other people involved in, say, MitS off the hook.

What amazes me is not that it had to be edited and approved by, natch, Mike. But that apparently none of the 89(!) playtesters--including more than a few people around here--either didn't catch these problems in playtesting, or were ignored.

And I don't know which is worse.

Well, in SOTA 2064, it states that winternight wants to hit the matrix so hard that it would make the crash of '29 look like system burp.. Or something like that.

So,I think both winter night doing something bad,and matrix falling are not too far out in the left feild.

It´s the Horrors. Belive me!

The one thing I really disagree with, from Kenson's perspective, is that academic hermetics (i.e. the ones that teach classes, develop thaumaturgical theses using a standardized thaumaturgic nomenclature, and actually try to create reproducable results) are "wrong" but shamans, and hermetics with a more holistic/magic-is-magic philosophy (i.e. Talon) are "right". I think both should be given equal precedence and viability.

It even pervades shadowtalk. The Shadowtalk in some magic-related SR3 efforts can usually be abstracted to this:

[game-related in-character data]

[hermetic poster describing some logical way of looking at it, tha sounds pretty damned absurd]

[shaman describing it correctly in less logical terms, or simply declaring once and for all that hermetics "just don't get it"]

Really annoying. Am I so wrong for liking magic that can be researched without contacting ancestors with magical Awakened plants, chanting "klatuu verata nicto" six times, and smearing myself in sap and dancing sky-clad?