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The Horror
When I heard the news I was shocked, surprised and excited. In the past week I've sold all my S4 core books on ebay, and am eagerly awaiting a 4th edition. I started with 1st ed, moved onto 2nd ed and finally onto 3rd ed. Shadowrun has always been one of my favourite games of all time, and I just felt like I had to come on here and post my suggestions for the new system. So ignore, flame, or agree as you will. At least I will have voiced some of my opinions on a S4 system.

To start off with, my problems with the Shadowrun system:

1) Too many rules sets.
2) Too many modifiers and optional add ons for guns.
3) Too many dice being rolled way too many times. Way too many opposed rolls.

Introducing new players to 3rd ed has been quite difficult for me. The basic character generation rules, skill use and the combat rules are easy enough to grok, but everyone always gets lost in the magic, rigging and decking sections.

So a mere simplification of the rules would be good enough IMO, and I am looking forward to anything FanPro puts out. Each FAQ post makes me more and more excited about what is coming (I love everything that's been mentioned so far).

As far as changes go however, I really feel that a more complete overhaul would not go astray. So here are a list of changes I would personally like to see:


1) Eliminate almost or all opposed rolls from the game. Try to boil everything down to one roll whenever possible.
1a) Boil down opponents to a threat rating. To beat them at a contested skill check you must roll a number of successes that is equal to the threat rating (set TN). Uncontested skill checks are made vs a GM set difficulty as per normal.
1b). Alternatively use the target number as (fixed # + opponet skill rating).
1c) In combat get rid of opposing Body rolls. Roll to hit, count successes and stage up damage. Damage is automatically staged down a number of places that is dependant on the Body of the target. Armour stages it down further. Alternatively use something even more different like this :
i) Roll x dice where x is equal to the rating of your skill. Your target number is determined by the range +/- a small number of modifiers. Total damage is determined by multiplying the base damage of the weapon by the number of successes (base damage is listed as a number from 1-20 or so). From this number you subtract armor ratings and Body rating (or threat rating, or a base Toughness value, etc). When being attacked the GM rolls a number of dice equal to (fixed # + threat rating) for the NPC, and follows the procedure above.
OR ii) Bring back variable staging. Give each weapon a penetration rating. The staging of a weapon always starts at x, is modified up by the penetration rating, and down by the armor rating of the target. If you are using opposed rolls, then the defender always rolls at a staging of 2 to stage down the damage. If you are not using opposed rolls, then the damage level is automatically staged down a bit based on the Body of the target.


2) Get rid of the spell system and replace it with a more freeform spell system. More flexibility, less hard and fast rules. I'm thinking something along the lines of Talislanta here. So essentially, more effects based magic where choosing different variables will increase the target number, and where choosing to take drain damage will lower it again. During character gen players choose areas of magic to place skill points into. These include attack, defence, conjuration, summoning, etc (all treated as skills). Roll x dice where x is the skill rating. Target number is determined by the effect you are trying to accomplish, minus the amount of frag you are willing to take. In the case of damaging spells you increase TN to increase the base damage of a spell (just like my examples for firearm base damage above). Roll the dice vs TN. Number of successes dictate how well you succeed (ie. acts as a multiplier to the base amount conjured, base damage inflicted, etc). Amount of frag taken is equal to the amount selected if at lest one success was obtained, or double the amount selected if no successes were obtained.


3) Make vehicle combat an extension of character combat, and reduce it to a few handling rolls here and there. There are plenty of good vehicle rules freely available out there that could easily be adapted to Shadowrun. Apply the same rules for vehicle chases as for character chases. Avoid precise calculations of acceleration/deceleration etc.


4) Seriously consider adding in some optional rules tying the characters more intimately into the story. Take a good hard look at games like The Riddle of Steel for some ideas. Keep any such rules simple and optional.


5) Make sure to put some critters in the core book!


6) Remember that it is ok to delay the release of the book iff it requires more playtesting.


I'd also like to add in that I really miss the skill web...



The Horror
Solstice
I'd like to add that 6 months from idea to finished product seems a very short time all things consisdered.
Synner
QUOTE (Solstice)
I'd like to add that 6 months from idea to finished product seems a very short time all things consisdered.

Where the hell did you get the idea that SR4 has taken 6 months from idea to finished product? It's been mentioned that its been in development and playtesting for more than that already.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (The Horror)
When I heard the news I was shocked, surprised and excited. In the past week I've sold all my S4 core books on ebay, and am eagerly awaiting a 4th edition.

You'd better hope Core SR4 has alot of stuff like vehilces, magic, matrix, cyber/gear, etc. since there will be some time lapse between initial SR4 release and additional rules/material.
The Horror

QUOTE
You'd better hope Core SR4 has alot of stuff like vehilces, magic, matrix, cyber/gear, etc.  since there will be some time lapse between initial SR4 release and additional rules/material.


I have no stresses about it. I actually found Shadowrun (any edition) more playable with just the core rules than with the supplements. The supplements really did add way too many rules, and I mainly used them for odd bits of background here and there.



The Horror
Lucyfersam
I can't agree in any way with the idea that they should get rid of opposed roles. Most games I find to few opposed roles. I consider that to be one of the best parts of the system is that you have at least a chance to oppose anything that is being done to you. Anytime you are working against a non-static system, I think the roll should be opposed. There are very few instances in the SR world where a non-opposed roll would be appropriate (the only one I can think of off hand is finding yourself in need of picking a tumbler lock).

Changing the magic system that much would change the entire nature and feel of magic in SR, which I am very fond of. I prefer the minor tweaks to the magic system as have been recommended on the various spell type threads.

I definitely agree that vehicle combat should be an extension of character combat, the vehicle combat system is cumbersome and difficult with no need.

The Horror
QUOTE (Lucy)
I can't agree in any way with the idea that they should get rid of opposed roles.  Most games I find to few opposed roles.  I consider that to be one of the best parts of the system is that you have at least a chance to oppose anything that is being done to you.  Anytime you are working against a non-static system, I think the roll should be opposed.  There are very few instances in the SR world where a non-opposed roll would be appropriate (the only one I can think of off hand is finding yourself in need of picking a tumbler lock).



From a pure mechanical perspective I agree with you. There is no need to get rid of opposed rolls. The problem is that it really does slow down the game. The active player has to pick up a fistfull of dice, roll them, count up successes, then pick up some of those dice again, roll them again and count up even more numbers. That's already slow enough, but then to top it off the opposing player/NPC/host/etc has to do the same back again. People already have a huge problem with damage in HERO, where all you do is roll the damage dice and interpret them in two different ways (one way you add them up, the other way you compare how many sixes and ones were rolled).

One game Shadowrun probably could learn from as well is the Buffy RPG. Look at the Unisystem implementation there for a really elegant way of making sure the players are never just passive targets against NPC strikes. Essentially, in Buffy the GM never really needs to roll the dice. Players roll when acting vs NPCs, and when defending vs NPCs. They are the centerpiece of the game.



The Horror
Dizzo Dizzman
Since it seems like everyone is putting their wish list on dumpshock on the off chance that the developers might swing by, I thought I would get in on the action.

1) No "group rate" for magic intiation. This really punishes the lone mage/shaman characters, especially at high levels. You could give them a bonus to learning spells from their group instead or something less powerful.
2) No geasa for essence loss.
3) Better cyberlimbs.
4) Better light pistols, throwing weapons, and LMGs (all underpowered weapons). And make motars easier to get (they're not exactly high tech).
5) A better/simpler system for two weapon fighting included in the core book.
6) Closing the two cyberlimb loophole (a +4 max bonus would work).
7) No one success spells (i.e. improved intiative).
cool.gif Make vampires cool (I hate how they are caused by a virus in SR...I would much prefer they actually be undead).
9) Better drones, vehicles, and vehicle weapon selection in the core book (or whatever the hell they are called).
10) Include a couple of common critters in the core book (vampire, ghoul, devil rat, ect.).
11) Either remove quickening or have some kind of cap (max quickened spells=initiate grade).
12) Try to keep edges and flaws to a max of five points. Anything more is probably a good indication that it either 1) costs too much or gives away too many build points or 2) is too damn powerful for a normal game (i.e. You have a 6 point enemy...the game master now decides if she lets you have 6 points for free or decides or the Tir finally sends a Ghost team after you).
13) Streamlined rules for the matrix and drone combat (sounds like you've already got this one covered).
14) Consolidate some of the firearms skills (i.e. why have rifles and A.R.?)

Just some thoughts and suggestions. And I do realize some of them are probably moot points by now, but I thought I would throw them out anyway.
lord_cack
QUOTE (The Horror)
One game Shadowrun probably could learn from as well is the Buffy RPG. Look at the Unisystem implementation there for a really elegant way of making sure the players are never just passive targets against NPC strikes. Essentially, in Buffy the GM never really needs to roll the dice. Players roll when acting vs NPCs, and when defending vs NPCs. They are the centerpiece of the game.



The Horror

I disagree. I love the Unisystem (and Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG). I think that it wouldn't work as well with Shadowrun. There are more game mechanics to take into consideration than simple combat/magic/social situations as in the BtVS RPG. I think that to keep Shadowruns Magic System and Hacking mechanics running properly you need something alittle more than just 1 die and 1 roll (I agree that there are too many dice in Shadowrun, but not WAY to many). The Unisystem leaves WAY to much up to the GM to just pull out his a$$ to work well. I mean I it could work, just not very well. Although if there were a way to make Shadowrun "feel" more like the BtVS RPG that would be great. Because it just flows so well, it really feels "action-y".

The Horror


QUOTE (lord_cack)
Although if there were a way to make Shadowrun "feel" more like the BtVS RPG that would be great. Because it just flows so well, it really feels "action-y".


I agree. I actually don't think that Unisystem is right for Shadowrun at all. I was just using BtVS RPG as an example of games that work without opposed rolls and yet still manages to put the players completely in control.

Overall, I don't think Shadowrun would lose too much from dropping all forms of opposed rolls, and that it would stand to gain a lot instead. Essentially, the biggest argument I've ever seen for the use of opposed rolls is that it gives the player a feeling that he is in control. You get hit by a gun, but living or dying comes down to how you roll the dice. Contrast this with games where when you get hit you simply cross off damage. It is easy to see how one might feel somewhat more powerless in the latter case.

I myself would prefer to do without them. There is no point to using them for skill rolls. The only good reason for them applies for combat situations, and for the sake of consistency, simplicity and sheer speed it would be better to drop them. I've already mentioned how it would be very easy to have armor and Body influence damage when being hit. That doesn't require a roll.

IMO the only opposed roll that should be made is the dodge roll from the Combat Pool, if the pool systems are kept. Even then, with enough tweaks you could make it so that dice allocated to dodging eliminate dice from the attacker rather than requiring a separate roll.


The Horror
Fortune
QUOTE (The Horror)
There is no point to using them for skill rolls. The only good reason for them applies for combat situations, and for the sake of consistency, simplicity and sheer speed it would be better to drop them.


Even if you dropped them for everything else, social situations definitely need to have Opposed tests.
The Horror
QUOTE (Fortune)
Even if you dropped them for everything else, social situations definitely need to have Opposed tests.


Why? I can name dozens of other games that don't use opposed rolls for social situations - games ranging from single dice systems, to percentile to dice pool systems.

You want to Fast Talk someone? Roll your bunch of d6s and score as many successes as the opponents threat rating. Or roll the dice and score one or more success vs a TN determined by the opponents skill/attribute etc.

I would actually think that it would be more logical to argue opposed rolls were more needed in cases of a Shadowrunner sneaking past a guard or something. Even then, it doesn't hold up. The player should always roll: he rolls when sneaking past the guard, or he rolls perception to detect the NPC sneaking past him.

Incidentally, one thing I would approve of would be to categorise every NPC according to three different threat ratings. One number for physical, one for mental and one for social (listed as 3/2/5 for example). These numbers would act as all their skill and attribute rolls for any situation you care to name. Their equipment or weapons would further finetune the roll or the effect. You could essentially remove NPC stat blocks entirely. Give them a background, some equipment and just three numbers to define them.



The Horror
Solstice
Yes I would sure hope so.
lord_cack
QUOTE (The Horror)
Incidentally, one thing I would approve of would be to categorise every NPC according to three different threat ratings. One number for physical, one for mental and one for social (listed as 3/2/5 for example). These numbers would act as all their skill and attribute rolls for any situation you care to name. Their equipment or weapons would further finetune the roll or the effect. You could essentially remove NPC stat blocks entirely. Give them a background, some equipment and just three numbers to define them.



The Horror

Yeah I forgot about that. Thats another Unisystem thing that would be great for Shadowrun. I think that would something worth working out.
The Horror
It just occurred to me that maybe I didn't place enough emphasis on how I feel about a couple of points in my first post.

To the game developers: please do check out The Riddle of Steel (you can get a free Quick start rules pdf from their website). I get the feeling that it borrowed numerous concepts from Shadowrun (though it is still very original). Most specifically, look at the Spiritual Attributes and how they relate to character effectiveness and to character improvement. I also recommend taking a look at how they apply the combat pool there as well.

Also, it may be worthwhile taking a look at the experience system from The Shadow of Yesterday as well. It should be freely available for download in plain text format from Indie Press Revolution if I recall correctly.

I'm not saying to use these systems as written for these other games. Just that they are quite inspired, and that maybe Shadowrun could benefit from something similar. Check them out, have a think about it, and maybe include something similar/inspired by them as an optional rule somewhere. If you are wondering what to do with Karma or how to handle Karma pool balance in game, then do give these games a quick look over.



The Horror
Tal
QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman)
cool.gif Make vampires cool (I hate how they are caused by a virus in SR...I would much prefer they actually be undead).

Read Critters. Undead vamps are in there. Personally I like all the HMHVV variants.
Ol' Scratch
I like the HMHVV vampires. I'd just like for them to be more vampiric rather than creatures that drain you of something that is nothing but a purely metagaming mechanic.
Tal
Eh. In my games they drain plasma, but it works out the same way anyway. Body can't maintain operation without plasma, so it gets weaker. -Shrug-
Ol' Scratch
Lower Essence doesn't make you weaker. At all. Just limits your magic and how many implants you can have installed, for the most part. Again: Metagame mechanic.
The Horror
Ok, time to expand a bit on my suggestions for a magic system. Basing this on the Talislanta system here, though with a few tweaks it would end up substantially different. Of course, it would require a lot of changes and playtesting blah blah blah.

Here we go. Each of the following is a magical skill, improved only by magically attuned characters in much the same way a SS would improve his firearms skills.

Alteration
- altering skills or stats of yourself or other characters.
Range: touch
Subjects: +1 TN per extra subject beyond 1.
Duration: 1 minute. +1 to TN per extra min.
Specific Alteration (ie. skills): +2 to TN per increased point
Broad Alteration: (ie. attributes): +4 to TN per increased point
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Combat
- harming opponents.
Base damage: +1 to TN per point of base stun damage, +2 to TN per point of base physical damage.
Range: 10 m, +1 to TN per extra 5 m.
Duration: instant.
Area: +1 to TN per 1 m radius.
Drain: 1 pt per -1 TN for stun, 2 pt per -2 TN for physical.

Conjure
- creating simple items out of thin air.
Maximum Mass: 3 Kg per +1 TN
Maximum Area: +1 to TN per 0.5 m cubed area.
Range: 10 m, +1 to TN per extra 5 m.
Duration: 1 min, +1 to TN per extra min.
Complexity: +1 TN for an item of moderate complexity
+3 TN for an item of above average complexity
+6 TN for a complex item
+10 TN for an incredibly complex item
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Detection
- detect hidden people and items, laser tripwires, or even reveal cyphers and lies.
+1 die to appropriate detect skill roll per +1 to TN.
Range: 10 m, +1 TN per additional 5 m.
Scrying: 1 Km, +1 to TN per additional 1 Km.
Duration: 1 min, +1 TN per additional 1 min.
(used in reverse, detection spells can be used to conceal items, lies, etc. Us the rules above, but apply the bonus dice as a penalty to the number of dice rolled by an opponent to detect the subject).
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Health
- healing back damage.
Range: Touch.
Duration: Instant.
Heal stun damage: 1 pt stun damage per +1 to TN.
Heal physical damage: 1 pt physical damage per +2 to TN.
Drain: 1 pt per -1 TN for stun, 2 pt per -2 TN for physical.

Illusion
- creating illusions. Note that invisibility is now under Detection spells.
Range: 10 m, +1 TN per additional 5 m.
Duration: 5 rounds, +1 TN per additional round.
Features: +2 to TN per additional feature of illusion (eg. sight, sound, colour, movement, smell, large area, etc).
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Summon
Threat Rating of Summoned Creature: 1 pt per +2 TN, allocated at will between the Physical, Mental and Social aspects of threat rating.
Casting Time: 1 round per 1 pt worth of threat rating.
Duration: 1 min, +1 TN per additional min.
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Telekinesis
- move items or people.
Strength of force: +2 to TN per 1 point of Strength applied (use lifting rules).
Range: 10 m, +1 TN per additional 5 m.
Speed of movement: 2 m per round, +1 to TN per additional 2 m/round.
Area: +1 TN per 0.5 m radius.
Duration: 5 rounds, +1 TN per additional round.
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.

Transmutation
- transforming one thing into another
Minor Transmutation: +3 TN
Moderate Transmutation: +6 TN
Major Transmutation: +10 TN
Total Transmutation: +15 TN
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 min, +1 min per +1 TN.
Drain: 1 pt per -1 to TN.


Ok, so now we have some magical skills and parameters to modify them. I've left out the following Talislanta modes as well - Influence, Defend and Ward, but they can be easily put in just like what I did above.

How do you cast a spell? First you decide what effect you are trying to accomplish. Do you want to hurt the guard? Then that's an attack spell. The special effect is up to you, as long as it matches the type of magic you perform. So lets say you decide on a fire ball. Good stuff.

Next you determine the parameters of the spell. Lets say you want a base damage of 3 points, you want it to be physical damage, and you want a 2 m radius on the spell. That's a total target number of 8. Allocate how many dice from your magic pool will go into the spell and how many will go into resisting drain.

Roll the dice (skill + magic pool). For every success you get, you will do the base damage to the targets in the blast radius. So if you get 2 successes, you will do 6 damage to the target. The target gets to reduce that by a number that is based on his Body (no need for an opposed roll).

Ok, now lets say you decide that an 8 target number is a bit too high for you. Lets say you want to reduce that target number to 4, so that more dice will roll successes and more damage will be inflicted. Well, you have to take some drain to do that. Looking under the combat spells summary you can see that physical spells give 2 points of drain per decrease in TN. That's 8 points of physical drain!

You take 8 points of drain, minus however many dice you allocated from your spell pool to drain defence (don't roll those dice, the # of dice reduces drain one for one), minus your base drain defence (not very high and calculated in a similar way to the base body defence).


Does that all make sense? Of course, I don't think something exactly like that should be implemented, but the gist of it seems good to me. The exact magical skills, target number parameters and drain would all have to worked out properly and play tested. How armor factors in would have to be worked out, though keeping it similar to the combat system would be ideal (my suggestion was that it decreases from damage taken).

The good things about this? It keeps the magic system very flexible, and puts the taking of drain entirely in the hands of the player, with more drain taken when the situation is more desperate. During play it is actually quite fast, and all these guidelines can fit in one quick reference sheet for the players to use. It also diversifies the number of skills a mage has to put points into, and brings them up to the same sort of skill level as a more combat type character.

The bad things? Its very different to the system used in the other three editions of the game, and may alienate a lot of players. Some people are just not very fond of effects based systems. Specific situations during play will also occasionally require the arbitration of the GM as opposed to having it all set in stone.



The Horror
Sandoval Smith
Unless I'm misreading something, I'd say that that system is a major impediment to flexibility. All those Spells skills will majorly cut down a mage's abilities to one or two specialties, unless they want to default on almost anything non magically related.

It also seems to be anti-streamling. Frequently used spells such as damage effects will be worked down pretty quick, but more complicated illusions, conjurations, and transmutations will completly stop play while all the math is worked (or argued) out.

Finally, in quite a few cases, TNs and/or drain seems to increase at an incredible rate. It seems that trying to do something as simple as Levitate would have some ludicrous TNs.
The Horror
Yes, the mage will likely specialise in particular types of spells much like a combat character specialises in particular types of combat. The system is still very flexible though, given that individual spells don't have to be learned. So instead of invisibility, the Detection magical skill would be used instead, and that could be used for detecting magical barriers, searching an area or a person, hiding an item, etc. Remember as well they can always default to an attribute instead of using the skill...

As for the drain and the target number, that is most definately something that would have to be worked out properly. Like I said, the above is my suggestions on the rough format and mechanics behind it. Game balance would come with careful thought and playtesting of the material.

As for particular conjurations and transformations, there would of course be guidelines in the book. The summary I posted is just that - a summary. The proper descriptions of each area of magic would cover the specifics in detail.



The Horror
The Horror
Uhm. A thought just occured to me. How would the matrix mechanics work if they were kept similar to the magic system I described above? Programs or variations of programs could be worked out on the fly with a similar system. The skills would be appropriate hacking functions, and the target numbers would be set by the parameters you want to allocate to the function. It certainly would be very easy to convert the Combat magical skill above to an Attack program, and the Detection magical skill above to a Search program, etc.

Interesting.



The Horror
apollo124
A few more suggestions for SR4:

In the critters section of the new core rule book, please include spirits, as has been done in the past, but dump the dragons. How many campaigns at the starting level have EVER faced a dragon, much less a great? Instead of dragons, please include some of the more common critters found on the streets. For example devil rats, demon rats, any of the HMHVV infected, sheddim, hellhounds, etc...

Also would like to suggest that some active skills and knowledge skills act as supplementary skills for certain spells. For example: Yogi the Docwagon paramedic shaman should be able to cast Heal better than the average Bear shaman.

In this example, if Yogi has a Biotech of 6, then before he casts his Heal spell, he should roll a Biotech skill check against the same TN# as the spell he is about to cast. For every 2 successes he rolls in his Biotech roll, apply one bonus success to his successful spell roll, assuming he rolls at least one natural success.

This would show in game terms that someone who has special knowledge relating to the spell in question could use that knowledge to fine-tune the spell for better effect. So, what you would end up with is a mage who knows a certain number of spells and perhaps has a few skills to help cast those spells more successfully.

I know it probably sounds like twink heaven, but it would have the effect of limiting itself. Someone could either choose to be a master of skills related to a few specific spells, or take smaller bonuses to a larger number of skills.

Just a few suggestions. Take them or leave them as you will.

apollo124
One more thing, since I seem to be asking for a bunch. If possible, could we get an official character generator? Not that I'm complaining against NSRCG, it rocks seriously, but something official would be really cool. Even if it only comes out on the official website as a download a few weeks or even months after release, it would be worth the wait, IMO.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (apollo124)
One more thing, since I seem to be asking for a bunch. If possible, could we get an official character generator? Not that I'm complaining against NSRCG, it rocks seriously, but something official would be really cool. Even if it only comes out on the official website as a download a few weeks or even months after release, it would be worth the wait, IMO.

I think I recommended McMackie to Rob as a playtester so he could get ready for the next edition. If I didn't, I need to.
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