My group is almost done with our house rules on the mundain aspects of fighting and now we are research magic.
I have read alot of talk about it being over balanced but have not seen what is it that is making it over balanced.
Is it magic itself? Just the elemental effects? Stun effects? Mana attacks? Or magic and how it works with how many action phases you get.
From my first reading impression, (I will reread it several times to make sure I understand it) the obvious things I see is mana attacks and to a lesser degree stun but also multipul castings if more then one action phases.
The other more subtle thing I noticed is that there seems to be a artifical balance put in the magic combat and how it effects armor based on the fact that you can by lvls of protection vs various elemental effects.
Therefor they made it half impact because you can buy resistance to add to your armor and therefor effect the outcome.
I think the smart thing would have been to have their 1-6 resist rating be a combined rating for all effects. Example you could have 6 fire resist added to a armor or have 2 to fire, cold and electical for a total of 6. That way the could leave impact at full damage vs elemental effects. End result is either you are well rounded or heavy in one area if you are really in need of it but based around full impact.
Just food for thought for now. We are moving on to tweeking magic and would be really interested on the feed back from this.
Full Version: Lets talk about SR Magic....
The primary problem in magic is that every other mechanic in the game is based on an opposed roll of "Attribute + Skill vs Attribute + Skill". However, magic is "Magic Attribute + Skill vs Willpower + CounterSpelling" However only mages can learn counter spelling, meaning that most people can only resist with willpower. There are also no ways to significantly boost willpower, so the most you'll really ever be able to toss as a mundane is 6-8 dice with out friendly mojo to back you up. You could get magic resistance to bring that up to 10-12 dice, but thats a lot of points that shouldn't have to be spent.
To sum up, you get way more dice to attack with than defend, and you can boost your skills and magic rating for attacking but not for defending.
Where as with the right skills and equipment, in a firefight you can dodge with 16-18 dice, which is on par with the best gunslingers. Defenders from magic can't get on par with the attackers.
As for solutions to this issue, you could give all mundanes magic resistance, or allow them to learn counterspelling, or allow them to use the dodge skill against spells. None of these are good, or even decent options, so why the heck did I mention them? I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas.
To sum up, you get way more dice to attack with than defend, and you can boost your skills and magic rating for attacking but not for defending.
Where as with the right skills and equipment, in a firefight you can dodge with 16-18 dice, which is on par with the best gunslingers. Defenders from magic can't get on par with the attackers.
As for solutions to this issue, you could give all mundanes magic resistance, or allow them to learn counterspelling, or allow them to use the dodge skill against spells. None of these are good, or even decent options, so why the heck did I mention them? I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas.
I think an option could be to use body or will as a threshold for the appropriate spell. Thus it works similiar to armour. Additionally the mage is the only one who's attribute is not limit and the limit on it is initiation but that even give them a metamagic.
Allowing mundanes to learn counterspelling is bad. Allowing them to use counterspelling charms is good.
How about just doubling the atribute for resistance? I think thatīd be a viable option.
hyzmarca
You scavanged from my brain, did you
!
I was toying with the same idea some seconds ago, but than it droped out of my mind, as I thought up the solucion above.
hyzmarca
You scavanged from my brain, did you
!I was toying with the same idea some seconds ago, but than it droped out of my mind, as I thought up the solucion above.
There's also the issue of one mage being able to counterspell a huge area as well as he does a pinhead. That should even things out pretty well.
My advice is try it as written for a while before you do anything to neuter it. Magic is powerful, but so is a predator with stick'n shock in the hands of a gunslinger adept. Magic on a single spell vs. single gunshot basis is more dangerous, but it's not an order of magnitude more dangerous. Mojo slingers have a harder time getting multiple IP, and they risk damaging themselves every time they throw a spell (it's a lot harder to take no drain in SR4 than it was in SR3).
The first thing you need to do is compare the mage to a mundane not an adept since he is magical. And increase reflex with a focus should give you enough IP's. But I agree the system should not be altered before it is understood.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| My advice is try it as written for a while before you do anything to neuter it. |
Agreed. Folks tend to shoot from the hip with house rules before given the rules as written a chance. Any rule can appear overpowered on its own. Play with it and see if it's actually even a problem before creating yet another deviation everyone has to remember.
I love to tweak the rules, but I've commited myself to 6 months of RAW before I even suggest changing anything.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| Magic on a single spell vs. single gunshot basis is more dangerous, but it's not an order of magnitude more dangerous. Mojo slingers have a harder time getting multiple IP, and they risk damaging themselves every time they throw a spell (it's a lot harder to take no drain in SR4 than it was in SR3). |
How many people can you hit with a single gunshot? With a single spell you can hit everyone within [magic rating] meters of a specific point.
No, magic isn't an order of magnitude more dangerous than a heavy pistol. It is an order of magnitude more dangerous than a grenade launcher. It is also far more versitile. Who needs a combat spell when you can force an enemy sammie to shoot all his friends in the back and then blow his own brains out for good measure?
| QUOTE (Dv84good) |
| The first thing you need to do is compare the mage to a mundane not an adept since he is magical. |
Even in the hands of a relatively average street sam, a predator has a similar damage output to a combat mage over a full round. Remember that spellcasting is a complex action and that splitting to multicast is a massive hit.
Where magic shines is against foes which low will and high body/armor.
| QUOTE |
| And increase reflex with a focus should give you enough IP's. But I agree the system should not be altered before it is understood. |
This is true, but a GM should make it relatively difficult to walk around with one active all the time. Sure, there are lots of situations where the mage will have it done ahead of time, but when you can't do it in advance, the drain isn't negligible.
I think the whole counterspelling charms isn't a bad idea really, that's something to think about...
Otherwise, the one fluke with spells is that, for all the dice you get, your successes are purely limited by your spell force (Unless you edge it, in which case, it's not a fair arguement unless the defender uses it too).
This means you can't minor force all your enemies - you have to put some dedication into it, which means risking some stun or physical damage each time.
Further along, You only get 1 target to aim at per turn/phase (whichever is the smaller one) unless you use an area spell. Your risk in area spells means that you might hit allies, and of course the drain is higher (very much with physical) if you try it.
So yes, magic can kick your butt if you don't use the environment to your advantage, but if you swarm a mage they have to be picky, and indecision is lethal for a mage.
As far as spirits go....you should probably go for the mage rather than get back into that arguement again.
Otherwise, the one fluke with spells is that, for all the dice you get, your successes are purely limited by your spell force (Unless you edge it, in which case, it's not a fair arguement unless the defender uses it too).
This means you can't minor force all your enemies - you have to put some dedication into it, which means risking some stun or physical damage each time.
Further along, You only get 1 target to aim at per turn/phase (whichever is the smaller one) unless you use an area spell. Your risk in area spells means that you might hit allies, and of course the drain is higher (very much with physical) if you try it.
So yes, magic can kick your butt if you don't use the environment to your advantage, but if you swarm a mage they have to be picky, and indecision is lethal for a mage.
As far as spirits go....you should probably go for the mage rather than get back into that arguement again.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 15 2006, 10:19 PM) |
| It is an order of magnitude more dangerous than a grenade launcher. |
There are two discussions here.
- Is magic more powerful than mundane means?
- Is magic more powerful in SR3 than SR4?
Grenades offer the advantage of not having to see all of your targets, as well. Magic offers the benefit of being able to use magesight goggles and not be able to be seen or shot by your targets.
There are grenade launchers that fire as a simple action, putting out twice the rate of fire that a manablast can (as well as frankly doing more damage than all but the largest spells). Spells are very deadly, a stunbolt can be jacked up to the point that it is very likely to drop an opponent every time it is used - but it's a complex action to use that. A gun-bunny with a SmartSquirt full of Narcoject can do very similar amounts of Stun with a simple action and risk no drain at all.
Spells that do damage really aren't a big deal. They can be replicated by mundane means, and are no more horrendously life-ending than something any high end razorboy can hide in his pants. However, non-damaging spells are a big deal. A really big deal.
There are a number of things that magic can do that can't be easily duplicated by mundane means, and that's where Magic becomes "overpowered". There's nothing stopping a magician from climbing into the seat of a back hoe, or making a long distance phone call, so the miracles available to mundanes are mostly just as available to Magicians. But a mundane can't astrally perceive or cast Trid Phantasm, so there are miracles that are available to Magicians and not to mundanes.
Hackers make a good livelihood right along side shamans and noone feels useless. But Street Samurai have to walk the line very carefully, they run the very real risk of the Magician being able to cover all of their utility and having other abilities besides.
---
On House Rules:
Mostly Spirits are unbalanced. Summoning is too powerful, and Binding is too weak. Try these on for size:
-Frank
Spells that do damage really aren't a big deal. They can be replicated by mundane means, and are no more horrendously life-ending than something any high end razorboy can hide in his pants. However, non-damaging spells are a big deal. A really big deal.
There are a number of things that magic can do that can't be easily duplicated by mundane means, and that's where Magic becomes "overpowered". There's nothing stopping a magician from climbing into the seat of a back hoe, or making a long distance phone call, so the miracles available to mundanes are mostly just as available to Magicians. But a mundane can't astrally perceive or cast Trid Phantasm, so there are miracles that are available to Magicians and not to mundanes.
Hackers make a good livelihood right along side shamans and noone feels useless. But Street Samurai have to walk the line very carefully, they run the very real risk of the Magician being able to cover all of their utility and having other abilities besides.
---
On House Rules:
Mostly Spirits are unbalanced. Summoning is too powerful, and Binding is too weak. Try these on for size:
- Unbound Spirits on Remote Service count against your 1 unbound spirit limit.
- Conjuring Drain is 1/2 Spirit Force + Total Resistance Hits, not Double Total Resistance Hits.
- A Spirit rolls 1 extra resistance die against Conjuring tests for every point its Force exceeds the conjurer's Magic attribute.
-Frank
My biggest problem with Magic is that they kept the one thing that unbalanced it the most in SR3: unlimited progression. With hard caps everywhere else, the problem is even worse in SR4.
But other than that, mundanes are actually better off than in SR3. They have Edge to help them, and counterspelling is more ubituous (since it doesn't bleed points from Spell Pool any more). Plus, they don't have those variable TNs that generally favored the spellcasters. In SR3, you could have a spellcaster throwing a Force: 6 manabolt at someone with a Willpower of 3. The spellcaster would be rolling against a TN of 3, while his hapless victim would be rolling against a TN of 6. Guess who usually won?
But other than that, mundanes are actually better off than in SR3. They have Edge to help them, and counterspelling is more ubituous (since it doesn't bleed points from Spell Pool any more). Plus, they don't have those variable TNs that generally favored the spellcasters. In SR3, you could have a spellcaster throwing a Force: 6 manabolt at someone with a Willpower of 3. The spellcaster would be rolling against a TN of 3, while his hapless victim would be rolling against a TN of 6. Guess who usually won?
The simplest way to keep mages in check is the one that's suggested all the time: don't divide the force by two when calculating drain.
It's true that the unlimited progression of mages gives them an edge. It's also true that the amount of karma that you have to dump in to a mage to make a difference is insane. Manipulations spells can be the worst , although they fixed that a bit with the more detailed resistance over time. Although if they get to make another check every 6 rounds, by then, it's probably all over anyways.
So yeah, the combat spells can be balanced, but it's illusions and manipulations that really get you. Plus mana bolt is nasty. Drain isn't very hard, a starting mage (say mag of 4) can cast it at force 8, maybe up it past 12 boxes with a good skill, more with edge, can't be resisted by armor, most folks don't have a high will right off. Oh yeah, and you can carry it anywhere.And if they have decent stats, they'll take little or no drain.
It's true that the unlimited progression of mages gives them an edge. It's also true that the amount of karma that you have to dump in to a mage to make a difference is insane. Manipulations spells can be the worst , although they fixed that a bit with the more detailed resistance over time. Although if they get to make another check every 6 rounds, by then, it's probably all over anyways.
So yeah, the combat spells can be balanced, but it's illusions and manipulations that really get you. Plus mana bolt is nasty. Drain isn't very hard, a starting mage (say mag of 4) can cast it at force 8, maybe up it past 12 boxes with a good skill, more with edge, can't be resisted by armor, most folks don't have a high will right off. Oh yeah, and you can carry it anywhere.And if they have decent stats, they'll take little or no drain.
I like making target attributes a threshold - for direct combat spells, illusion magic and manipulation spells. Indirect combat spells are fine as they are.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Feb 16 2006, 12:31 AM) |
| The simplest way to keep mages in check is the one that's suggested all the time: don't divide the force by two when calculating drain. |
That keeps them in check, all right. In check to the point that they're almost not worth playing.
How much more dangerous to a human is that manabolt compared to a double tap from a predator loading stick'n shock? If one takes him down with 12 points of damage and the other takes him down with 14, is there really a significant difference there?
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| I like making target attributes a threshold - for direct combat spells, illusion magic and manipulation spells. Indirect combat spells are fine as they are. |
That's even worse... Have you tried it in play? Do mages ever manage to get spells to work? A good starting mage has, maybe, twelve dice to throw on a spellcasting check. He can probably affect attribute 3, and about 50/50 affect 4. But beyond that it's horribly difficult.
EDIT: Are you granting the threshold in addition to the resistance roll? Because I have a hard time seeing how magic ever works if that's the case. The restriction of force on hits alone would make it impractical.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| I like making target attributes a threshold - for direct combat spells, illusion magic and manipulation spells. Indirect combat spells are fine as they are. |
Just how unkillable do you want trolls to be?
If you take the rules as written, when will an illusion spell or a manipulation spell ever not work? Who would still be standing after a high-force blast spell hit the ground? A few boxes of damage to the mage, but a low-force heal spell will easily fix that.
Even my suggestion would not help anyone without spell defense. (And I would just say autohit, not additional hits). Iīd call 50/50 on a mind control attempt good odds, and added power from edge could still beat counterspelling.
Edit: And trolls would just be unkillable with direct combat spells doing physical damage.
Even my suggestion would not help anyone without spell defense. (And I would just say autohit, not additional hits). Iīd call 50/50 on a mind control attempt good odds, and added power from edge could still beat counterspelling.
Edit: And trolls would just be unkillable with direct combat spells doing physical damage.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| If you take the rules as written, when will an illusion spell or a manipulation spell ever not work? |
I have to counter that question by asking how often the same spells didn't work in SR3.
If you're going to raise the resistance to spells by a factor of four... eliminate drain. I mean, you're making the mage less potent than the street sam with the predator, so why make him suffer drain?
Note the our group is fairly immune to magic. I mean, we have to mages, one had 5 counterspelling specalized in combat spells, and my troll mage has 4 counter spelling. So we give everyone 9 more dice. 11 vs combat spells.
On offence, I thought 4 magic (have some cyber) + 6 spell casting +2 totem +2 specaliztion +2 focus = 16 dice with a stunbolt.
On offence, I thought 4 magic (have some cyber) + 6 spell casting +2 totem +2 specaliztion +2 focus = 16 dice with a stunbolt.
| QUOTE (ogbendog @ Feb 16 2006, 01:31 PM) |
| 4 magic (have some cyber) + 6 spell casting +2 totem +2 specaliztion +2 focus = 16 dice |
5 base magic (50 BP) + 6 spellcasting (24 BP) + 2 totem (5 BP) + 2 specialization (2 BP) + 2 spell focus (14 BP) = 16 dice (96 BP).
Oh, and another 3 BP for the spell itself. And another 15 BP for the Magician quality in the first place. So we'll call it 114 BP total, ignoring the additional costs for the anti-drain attributes.
So how many BPs does it take to throw 16 dice when shooting a Ruger Super Warhawk with gel rounds?
| QUOTE (ogbendog @ Feb 16 2006, 12:31 PM) |
| So we give everyone 9 more dice. 11 vs combat spells. |
That's not actually how those are supposed to stack. You're supposed to use the teamwork rules.
EDIT:
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| So how many BPs does it take to throw 16 dice when shooting a Ruger Super Warhawk with gel rounds? |
Agility 5 (50 bp) + 6 Pistols (24 bp) + 2 specialization (2 bp) + 2 smartlink (< 1 bp) + 1 reflex recorder (2 bp) = 16 dice for a little bit less than 79 bp
Worst case at character gen:
Elf (30) + Agility 7 (75) + 2 Muscle toner r2 (3 bp and a bit) + 6 Pistols (24 bp) + 2 specialization (2 bp) + 2 smartlink (< 1 bp) + 1 reflex recorder (2 bp) = 20 dice for 137 bp
During play, the worst case could add one more die via muscle toner.
Worst case mage:
Magic 6 (75) + 6 spellcasting (24 BP) + 2 totem (5 BP) + 2 specialization (2 BP) + 3 spell focus (12 BP) + 2 power focus (12 bp) = 21 dice for 130 bp
And a relatively open ended advancement, though it's horribly expensive. Magic 7 costs 34 karma. Magic 8 costs an additional 40 karma. You get a couple of metamagics for it, but at low grade they're not that powerful.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Feb 16 2006, 11:38 AM) | ||
5 base magic (50 BP) + 6 spellcasting (24 BP) + 2 totem (5 BP) + 2 specialization (2 BP) + 2 spell focus (14 BP) = 16 dice (96 BP). Oh, and another 3 BP for the spell itself. So how many BPs does it take to throw 16 dice when shooting a Ruger Super Warhawk with gel rounds? |
Keep in mind that when opposing the Ruger you do so with Reaction, not Dodge, unless you also give up a complex action. On the other hand defensive Counterspelling is a nonaction, so has no limits on its use per Turn. Of course you don't stage down the direct damage like you can with Body or Armor, nor does the Ruger weilder take damage from shooting (unless they Glitch using explosive rounds, or Glitch and are playing with a really mean GM
).Character advancement, like in SR3, is still where magic vs. mundane is longer term where magicians can keep advancing theoretically indefinately. Whether that becomes a problem or not is mostly on how much karma your characters normally earn before retiring/dieing.
All in all it does mostly work out. Except perhaps that drain on Stunbolt and even Stunball is still on the cheap side, and the RAW for spirits can easily be played by the GM as being way over the top. It definately needs some GM forethought, though not nessarily needing full out rules alterations, to make that side work. You'll find suggestions here for that. If you are still having spirit problems even just using RAW there are numerous suggestions here for that. Frank's simple rules additions are a good example of a minumal but effective tweak.
Additionally, using Reaction does not require a friendly magician to maintain LOS to you.
Note to self: Buy more smoke grenades.
Note to self: Buy more smoke grenades.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Additionally, using Reaction does not require a friendly magician to maintain LOS to you. Note to self: Buy more smoke grenades. |
Why toss smoke grenades at the Mage when you can just geek him already?
If you surround the target in smoke you won't be casting at him either, unless you don't require LOS to the entire area of an indirect AOE spell, although you could try shoot at him. Penalties aren't too bad if you have Ultrasonic.
Actually I was going more for interrupting the opposing mage's LOS to both my team as well as the mage's team. No counterspelling for the baddies means our mage(s) will have an easier job.
If I could guarantee that I'd drop the enemy mage in one round, then sure, just cacking the guy is more time-efficient. If the mage is smart and has defenses running, visual obstructions are a lot easier to employ.
If I could guarantee that I'd drop the enemy mage in one round, then sure, just cacking the guy is more time-efficient. If the mage is smart and has defenses running, visual obstructions are a lot easier to employ.
Speaking of time-efficiency: "Taking physical damage from overcasting means the mage has to cast Heal on himself later" is something that I hear occasionally. I've said it myself, but not in support of the idea that magic is overpowered.
Overcasting then healing might result in no bodily damage to the caster, but it does do "time damage."
I don't know about you guys, but every Initiative Pass is extremely valuable in my fights. Mages usually can't afford to stop and spend a few combat rounds healing up after tossing out a big ol' Force 10. Myself, I'd much rather fire off multiple low-drain spells in the same span rather than one big whammy plus the bothersome Heal time.
While mages can pop off Force 10 Manaballs, it's usually better to just fire an airburst from an MGL-12 downrange twice in one IP if you're looking for mass carnage. At that point you're just doing minor "money damage" to yourself with the expended ammo, which is far preferable.
Overcasting then healing might result in no bodily damage to the caster, but it does do "time damage."
I don't know about you guys, but every Initiative Pass is extremely valuable in my fights. Mages usually can't afford to stop and spend a few combat rounds healing up after tossing out a big ol' Force 10. Myself, I'd much rather fire off multiple low-drain spells in the same span rather than one big whammy plus the bothersome Heal time.
While mages can pop off Force 10 Manaballs, it's usually better to just fire an airburst from an MGL-12 downrange twice in one IP if you're looking for mass carnage. At that point you're just doing minor "money damage" to yourself with the expended ammo, which is far preferable.
FirstAid rocks the crap out of Heal. Mundanes can patch you up so much better. They can fix up Stun damage, and they can do it all day no matter how bad you are busted up and not hurt themselves in the processs. The one downside is requiring medic supplies and equipment, but those are relatively cheap and legal. Of course a magician and a skilled medic working together are even better yet.
On the bonus side for AOE spells, you don't miss with a spell. Grenades always scatter unless you roll fantastically (meaning 4+ hits usually)
And a mage doesn't have to even pop out high force spells to destroy some one, a force 5 or 6 spell with an additional 5-6 successes means a 10-12 DV to resist, with out armor in the case of mana spells. The only way you could do that with a sammy is to take a called shot to bypass all armor, and that applies a steep dice penalty, where as the mages have no penalty for it.
And a mage doesn't have to even pop out high force spells to destroy some one, a force 5 or 6 spell with an additional 5-6 successes means a 10-12 DV to resist, with out armor in the case of mana spells. The only way you could do that with a sammy is to take a called shot to bypass all armor, and that applies a steep dice penalty, where as the mages have no penalty for it.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| FirstAid rocks the crap out of Heal. Mundanes can patch you up so much better. They can fix up Stun damage, and they can do it all day no matter how bad you are busted up and not hurt themselves in the processs. The one downside is requiring medic supplies and equipment, but those are relatively cheap and legal. Of course a magician and a skilled medic working together are even better yet. |
Last I checked, nothing properly heals stun damage except time. A stim patch or whatever might temporarily negate some issues, but that's not a solve-all, and its a quick path to addiction or overdose fatigue if you treat it like candy.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Feb 16 2006, 01:30 PM) | ||
Last I checked, nothing properly heals stun damage except time. A stim patch or whatever might temporarily negate some issues, but that's not a solve-all, and its a quick path to addiction or overdose fatigue if you treat it like candy. |
You should check again.
EDIT Page 242
| QUOTE |
| Characters with the First Aid skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds (Stun or Physical). |
Sorry, but for all that section says first aid works on stun and physical, the examples given are solely physical. THey don't back up the claim on the stun Unless they were thinking patches.
THey don't back up the claim on the stun Unless they were thinking patches.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Feb 16 2006, 01:47 PM) |
| Sorry, but for all that section says first aid works on stun and physical, the examples given are solely physical. THey don't back up the claim on the stun Unless they were thinking patches. |
Back up the claim?
They don't need to back it up. They just flat out told you it works for Stun. I don't think you understand the meaning or purpose of an example. It is intended as a subset of all possible senarios. They didn't have any characters with the name Bob in the example either. I guess characters with the name Bob can't be healed with FirstAid at all. 
How does the power of magic in SR3 figure into the question of balance in SR4? Not at all? You want to keep the balance issues for sentimental value?
Now, on the bp cost. Most of that magic investment is general purpose, firing a ruger thunderbolt is just for killing.
Solution for unmodified RAW:
Noticing magic has a threshold of 6, minus spell force or skill level. Geek the mage first, use edge to do it. Things never change...
Did you ever see a "well constructed" mage in the hands of a creative player? And wanted said player to be your GM?
Now, on the bp cost. Most of that magic investment is general purpose, firing a ruger thunderbolt is just for killing.
Solution for unmodified RAW:
Noticing magic has a threshold of 6, minus spell force or skill level. Geek the mage first, use edge to do it. Things never change...
Did you ever see a "well constructed" mage in the hands of a creative player? And wanted said player to be your GM?
| QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Feb 16 2006, 03:06 PM) |
| On the bonus side for AOE spells, you don't miss with a spell. |
You do if your casting generates less hits than the targets. I saw it happen twice this past Sunday, in fact.
Mind you, it was from a mystic adept who was currently sustaining a separate spell while Stunballing ghouls. He was throwing 6 dice while the droolers were throwing 5.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Feb 16 2006, 03:06 PM) |
| Grenades always scatter unless you roll fantastically |
Scatter's okay if the area is big. Airburst sure helps, too.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| How does the power of magic in SR3 figure into the question of balance in SR4? Not at all? You want to keep the balance issues for sentimental value? |
It's relevant because it's a baseline. It's one thing to argue that the gap between magic and mundane has gotten wider. It's another thing to argue that the premise that magic can be inherently more powerful than mundane means is a bad thing. If you want to argue the second, it's a basic and inherent part of the SR universe.
You seem to be arguing that magic shouldn't ever outstrip mundane or that when it does work it should be rare. Using your proposed rules, I don't see how mages can even remotely keep up with mundanes. You're pretty much forcing every mage to twink out in order to be useful at all. By nerfing the top 10% of magic, you're really destroying the other 90%.
I like to play characters around the 70% mark (good at magic, but not twinked), personally, so your rule would absolutely destroy my mage characters.
Mages have always been the paper tiger of SR, in any case. Most mages can't dodge bullets or resist damage the way a street sam can, so when they get shot they tend to go down rather quickly. And once it becomes apparent that they're a mage, they tend to get shot at a lot.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Did you ever see a "well constructed" mage in the hands of a creative player? And wanted said player to be your GM? |
Depends on what you mean by "well constructed". Do you mean "twinked to hell and back" or "built with balance and care"?
I assume you mean twinked to hell and back. Players who play that way often don't make good GMs. In fact, any GM that sets out to kill the players with monstrous NPCs isn't a very good GM.
If you mean dangerous but fair mages, then sure, I'd enjoy playing under that GM. Sometimes the PCs don't win. Sometimes the PCs shouldn't win.
I think, comparing mages and mundanes regarding individual aspects, like combat, is rather moot.
A specialized mundane can most likely keep up with a mage in his chosen discipline, for example combat.
The real problem with mages in SR has always been the versality.
A starting Mage can be a
useful face
+ a combat monster
+ a walking ambulance
+ an incredible scout
+ super stealthy
+ a walking cyberware scanner
+ commanding several minions.
And all this without having to carry any gear, exept maybe a focus or two, but he functions well even without them. And in any of this disciplines, he can keep up or more often surpass a skilled mundane. There are few situations, a versatile mage can't handle solo. In SR4, most mundanes can at least command drones, so they can reduce the gap a little. Still, it's depressing for the players of mundane characters, if they specialize and invest heavily to be good in their chosen field of expertise, just to watch the mage do the same things just as good, without any specialisation.
Want to get past a security camera? The hacker fires up his programs and starts trying to infiltrate the network, which takes some time and may or may not work, the sam has to get his stealth-suit, a large piece of gear he doesn't usually carry around, the face may try to invest a lot of time and nuyen to get legal access. Then there comes the mage, without any preparation, naked, casts improved invisib. and walks past the camera. In my opinion, organizing gear, and getting said gear to the place where it must be used is one of the main challenges of shadowrunning. Magic eliminates that for the mage. Not my idea of balanced gameplay. Now some people argue that magic wouldn't be magic if it couldn't solve problems with more ease then mundane means. I say, magic in the SR-setting should allow to solve magical problems that can't be solved by mundane means. Magic shouldn't additionally solve mundane problems better then mundane means.
As you can see, my problem with mages in shadowrun is rather independent of the actual version of the game. And i see no quick and easy solution for it either, since the problem seems to be a key aspect of the rules-system.
So for the group i'm GMing, i ask my players not to play magicians, or if they do, to make them specialized, not the generic "i can do everything with a spell"-magician. So far that worked well, and allowed for a more cyberpunk-heavy atmosphere, where magic exists, but is as rare as the sourcebooks suggest and not something the players have to work with/against on a daily basis.
A specialized mundane can most likely keep up with a mage in his chosen discipline, for example combat.
The real problem with mages in SR has always been the versality.
A starting Mage can be a
useful face
+ a combat monster
+ a walking ambulance
+ an incredible scout
+ super stealthy
+ a walking cyberware scanner
+ commanding several minions.
And all this without having to carry any gear, exept maybe a focus or two, but he functions well even without them. And in any of this disciplines, he can keep up or more often surpass a skilled mundane. There are few situations, a versatile mage can't handle solo. In SR4, most mundanes can at least command drones, so they can reduce the gap a little. Still, it's depressing for the players of mundane characters, if they specialize and invest heavily to be good in their chosen field of expertise, just to watch the mage do the same things just as good, without any specialisation.
Want to get past a security camera? The hacker fires up his programs and starts trying to infiltrate the network, which takes some time and may or may not work, the sam has to get his stealth-suit, a large piece of gear he doesn't usually carry around, the face may try to invest a lot of time and nuyen to get legal access. Then there comes the mage, without any preparation, naked, casts improved invisib. and walks past the camera. In my opinion, organizing gear, and getting said gear to the place where it must be used is one of the main challenges of shadowrunning. Magic eliminates that for the mage. Not my idea of balanced gameplay. Now some people argue that magic wouldn't be magic if it couldn't solve problems with more ease then mundane means. I say, magic in the SR-setting should allow to solve magical problems that can't be solved by mundane means. Magic shouldn't additionally solve mundane problems better then mundane means.
As you can see, my problem with mages in shadowrun is rather independent of the actual version of the game. And i see no quick and easy solution for it either, since the problem seems to be a key aspect of the rules-system.
So for the group i'm GMing, i ask my players not to play magicians, or if they do, to make them specialized, not the generic "i can do everything with a spell"-magician. So far that worked well, and allowed for a more cyberpunk-heavy atmosphere, where magic exists, but is as rare as the sourcebooks suggest and not something the players have to work with/against on a daily basis.
If the mage is surrounded by his summoned spirit, he can basically take full-auto to the chest and not feel anything. I say that is AWESOME.
Has anyone use the multiple targets option for magic and if so did it work well.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Scatter's okay if the area is big. Airburst sure helps, too. |
You sure about that? First off, 3D6 - 4m per success isn't much worse than 1D6 - 1m. There are many, many occasions where i'd rather not have the airburst "bonus", though the immediate detonation is indispensable. Think about it: You get like 3 successes, but you roll D6 and get a 3, so the grenade lands on target. You'd think having a grenade land at your enemies feet would be cause for celebration. Unfortunately, he still gets a reaction roll (with -2 dice due to being caught in an area effect). You have no successes left on the attack, so a single success negates the blast entirely.
| QUOTE (Space Ghost) |
| You have no successes left on the attack, so a single success negates the blast entirely. |
From the rules, I don't think this is the case. If you have no net successes, the grenade simply lands at full scatter. This makes the airburst more useful.
In defense to naked mages everywhere - they are high karma intensive. That said, they have to be 'versatile' because the moment you find a way to out perform them, they're obsolete until they can get more power or options to make up for it. Compared to those that only need Nuyen, it's technically the ultimate geasa.
The art of the mage is also very lethal if the mage truly takes the risk. A mage is perfectly capable of killing himself using any of the options listed a moment ago if he has a bad roll - worse still is spirits. if played properly (key word), a spirit is a double edged sword - use it properly, and it does great things, but if you fumble, you're gonna cut off your own leg, or torso, or head.
That, and mages are suppose to be rare. As a GM I would probably allow 1 mage tops in a group, then start making others that want to be awakened roll for the chance to be, or something like that. A little crowd control wouldn't hurt.
The art of the mage is also very lethal if the mage truly takes the risk. A mage is perfectly capable of killing himself using any of the options listed a moment ago if he has a bad roll - worse still is spirits. if played properly (key word), a spirit is a double edged sword - use it properly, and it does great things, but if you fumble, you're gonna cut off your own leg, or torso, or head.
That, and mages are suppose to be rare.
As a GM I would probably allow 1 mage tops in a group, then start making others that want to be awakened roll for the chance to be, or something like that. A little crowd control wouldn't hurt.
Plus, mages can't get by keypads and other security checkpoints if they've spent most of their karma and buildpoints on magic and related things. Of course, they could probably mistform, if that's a spell.
This changes when the building has magic security and spirits patrolling for things like a force 5 invisibility spell. Hell, a watcher spirit could find out a mage who doesn't Mask his spells, and that takes 13 karma at least. It's the same for everything else. If key security people have willpower 1, the face will be able to convince them to shoot the company president if he/she's good enough. If the Matrix security's all blue servers, then the decker could crash an AAA without flinching. And so on, and so forth. You don't do astral scans for hackers, and you don't mind control a security guard to shoot the president if the president's surrounded by people with Assensing rank 2.
This changes when the building has magic security and spirits patrolling for things like a force 5 invisibility spell. Hell, a watcher spirit could find out a mage who doesn't Mask his spells, and that takes 13 karma at least. It's the same for everything else. If key security people have willpower 1, the face will be able to convince them to shoot the company president if he/she's good enough. If the Matrix security's all blue servers, then the decker could crash an AAA without flinching. And so on, and so forth. You don't do astral scans for hackers, and you don't mind control a security guard to shoot the president if the president's surrounded by people with Assensing rank 2.
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Feb 16 2006, 10:04 PM) |
| Plus, mages can't get by keypads and other security checkpoints if they've spent most of their karma and buildpoints on magic and related things. Of course, they could probably mistform, if that's a spell. |
*cough* datasoft/knowsoft uploaded to their commlink *cough*
Or good old-fashioned walkthroughs (which, thankfully, SR4 didn't make rules for) by the team hacker.
| QUOTE |
| *cough* datasoft/knowsoft uploaded to their commlink *cough* |
*cough* loss of magic *cough*
Also, if he's astrally projecting, he'll probably be found instantly by any security mage in the area, even if he hides behind a wall. A drone has no such problem.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Plus, mages can't get by keypads and other security checkpoints if they've spent most of their karma and buildpoints on magic and related things. Of course, they could probably mistform, if that's a spell. This changes when the building has magic security and spirits patrolling for things like a force 5 invisibility spell. Hell, a watcher spirit could find out a mage who doesn't Mask his spells, and that takes 13 karma at least. It's the same for everything else. If key security people have willpower 1, the face will be able to convince them to shoot the company president if he/she's good enough. If the Matrix security's all blue servers, then the decker could crash an AAA without flinching. And so on, and so forth. You don't do astral scans for hackers, and you don't mind control a security guard to shoot the president if the president's surrounded by people with Assensing rank 2. |
At least you don't do most of those things unless you are very well plotting ways to not get detected. a Mage, with help, could get through situations like that - you can't go assensing while someone is being shot at. For one, it gets them killed (and your job lost). If you make things awkward for those you're working against, it helps a lot.
but yeah, what Emo said.
a datasoft/knowsoft is only knowledge, not reliable (at best, it keeps you from autofailing) That doesn't substitute a hacker o a lock pick.
Hmm. Been checking out the system and testing it out some with my group as well as reading the posts many of you have written.
We have a few tweaks done now that seem to help it out but I am not sure how it would help anyone else out here since we changed the combat formula which is what its all built around.
It works within the system of the books pretty much so far but we are still testing it.
Havent even touched or looked at spirits yet, so I have little to offer there.
We have a few tweaks done now that seem to help it out but I am not sure how it would help anyone else out here since we changed the combat formula which is what its all built around.
It works within the system of the books pretty much so far but we are still testing it.
Havent even touched or looked at spirits yet, so I have little to offer there.
@Tinkergnome:
I donīt accept SR3 as a baseline for balance discussion. Either there is balance or there isnīt. Iīd even say balance got much worse compared to SR3, but thats not the point.
What Iīm saying is that magic is inherently more powerful than mundane means even for starting characters. The practical limit for spell defense is around 12 dice and depends on the presence of a mage, the practical limit on the offense is much higher.
Even your 70% character with magic 5 and spellcasting 4 will rarely ever see a spell not succeed. Will 3 at most for mundanes, counterspelling of 4 (if present only)... solid two dice advantage.
Develop a realistic scenario to stop magic 5, spellcasting 4, +specialisation, +mentor bonus. Thats still far from 100%, and a whopping 7bp investment.
I donīt accept SR3 as a baseline for balance discussion. Either there is balance or there isnīt. Iīd even say balance got much worse compared to SR3, but thats not the point.
What Iīm saying is that magic is inherently more powerful than mundane means even for starting characters. The practical limit for spell defense is around 12 dice and depends on the presence of a mage, the practical limit on the offense is much higher.
Even your 70% character with magic 5 and spellcasting 4 will rarely ever see a spell not succeed. Will 3 at most for mundanes, counterspelling of 4 (if present only)... solid two dice advantage.
Develop a realistic scenario to stop magic 5, spellcasting 4, +specialisation, +mentor bonus. Thats still far from 100%, and a whopping 7bp investment.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.