Zurai... missed point.
None of the rules for drones and weapon targetting can apply. Or even the rules for normal mundane operation of the weapon.
The spirit cannot use sensors and has no gunnery skill. Hence 0 dice pool. None of the rigging methods of firing guns can apply.
Even going to the fallback of... guy in back of pickup firing a mounted weapon... the vehicle by definition HAS NO AGILITY and the spirit HAS NO GUNNERY. So again the dice pool is 0.
The possession rules for vehicles are at best a kludge right now. Yet another case of poorly written rules by the fluffmeisters.
The problem this leaves is twofold...
One. There is no unified way to handle it
Two. Munchkins will abuse vagaries in the rules mercilessly
If you haven't noticed a common theme in my posts... it's that I make it imperative to point out potential abuses in the system.
Another thing which is never addressed by the rules for example... the spirit cannot interact w/ any of the electronic systems of the vehicle. All the regular vehicles in 2070 use drive/fly by wire. EG: you control them by telling the computer where you want to go and the computer then moves the servos. Unless the vehicle is equipped to be manual controls only... how exactly does the spirit control it and move it?
How does it move the vehicle? (does it use the engine or it's own spirit motive power)
Full Version: Possession Spirits Overpowered
Unless, of course, the spirit DOES have gunnery. No reason a free possession spirit couldn't take the skill precisely for this purpose.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 1 2009, 01:04 PM) 
Zurai... missed point.
None of the rules for drones and weapon targetting can apply. Or even the rules for normal mundane operation of the weapon.
The spirit cannot use sensors and has no gunnery skill. Hence 0 dice pool. None of the rigging methods of firing guns can apply.
Even going to the fallback of... guy in back of pickup firing a mounted weapon... the vehicle by definition HAS NO AGILITY and the spirit HAS NO GUNNERY. So again the dice pool is 0.
The possession rules for vehicles are at best a kludge right now. Yet another case of poorly written rules by the fluffmeisters.
The problem this leaves is twofold...
One. There is no unified way to handle it
Two. Munchkins will abuse vagaries in the rules mercilessly
If you haven't noticed a common theme in my posts... it's that I make it imperative to point out potential abuses in the system.
Another thing which is never addressed by the rules for example... the spirit cannot interact w/ any of the electronic systems of the vehicle. All the regular vehicles in 2070 use drive/fly by wire. EG: you control them by telling the computer where you want to go and the computer then moves the servos. Unless the vehicle is equipped to be manual controls only... how exactly does the spirit control it and move it?
How does it move the vehicle? (does it use the engine or it's own spirit motive power)
None of the rules for drones and weapon targetting can apply. Or even the rules for normal mundane operation of the weapon.
The spirit cannot use sensors and has no gunnery skill. Hence 0 dice pool. None of the rigging methods of firing guns can apply.
Even going to the fallback of... guy in back of pickup firing a mounted weapon... the vehicle by definition HAS NO AGILITY and the spirit HAS NO GUNNERY. So again the dice pool is 0.
The possession rules for vehicles are at best a kludge right now. Yet another case of poorly written rules by the fluffmeisters.
The problem this leaves is twofold...
One. There is no unified way to handle it
Two. Munchkins will abuse vagaries in the rules mercilessly
If you haven't noticed a common theme in my posts... it's that I make it imperative to point out potential abuses in the system.
Another thing which is never addressed by the rules for example... the spirit cannot interact w/ any of the electronic systems of the vehicle. All the regular vehicles in 2070 use drive/fly by wire. EG: you control them by telling the computer where you want to go and the computer then moves the servos. Unless the vehicle is equipped to be manual controls only... how exactly does the spirit control it and move it?
How does it move the vehicle? (does it use the engine or it's own spirit motive power)
yes, heaven help us if the GM should have to actually make decisions about how the game works. that would be truly awful. clearly, drastic measures are called for... quick everyone, convert shadowrun to 4th edition D&D! i've had it up to here with effectiveness that doesn't involve killing things! [/sarcasm]
a spirit has no way of moving a statue either. there's no clockwork engine built into vessels that with manual controls that allow possession spirits to drive a homunculus. and yet, it works. when a spirit possesses a drone, it works the same way: the spirit doesn't grab the steering wheel. it just directly controls the mechanical parts. same with a vehicle mounted weapon. unless it is completely electrically controlled, even if there is no trigger, there is something that triggers the bullets. the spirit need not concern itself with anything in between the control panel and the gun, it merely needs to worry about the final step, and it just directly makes that final step happen.
as to the vehicle not having an agility score, well, the spirit does. who gives a crap if the vehicle has one? look at the rules for a homunculus, and approximate based on them. or perhaps you think that a homunculus can only include the three types listed?
QUOTE (Megu @ Aug 1 2009, 03:25 PM)
Unless, of course, the spirit DOES have gunnery. No reason a free possession spirit couldn't take the skill precisely for this purpose.
sure, but i doubt most would. i'm sure there is one (or more) somewhere that feel it's a worthwhile investment of effort to learn, mind you. just like there's probably someone somewhere that considers underwater basketweaving a valid and useful skill somewhere. just don't expect it to be easy to find.
Jaid:
Exactly my point... there isn't a consistent manner to handle an important aspect of possession traditions! If I were to sit down at one table... things can be radically different than at another. I see that as a critical failing of the system. Also maybe it didn't come through well, but my tone was rhetorical (especially at the end).
IF the GM is feeling generous... then yes do as you say... give it an agility score (probably equal to force) and let it default the test. Or maybe only allow it to control 'manual' weapon mounts (as the others are computer fired). Or maybe have a second spirit possess the gun and one drive. Another potential is.. it has no dice, it just can't use the full function of the drone.
The same problem comes up with the humanoid Otomo... there is no agility rating on the drone! The tests end up being command + skill or the rigging equivalent. Unlike a prepared homonculus vessel it has drone attributes, it doesn't have player attributes (str agi reac etc.).
Or here's another hypothetical... can you enhance an attribute which doesn't exist?! Can I cast 'increase agility' on a car? (I'd say that's a strong no... but the spirit can?). What exactly is the limit of magic in this regard.
As far as my answer to the last... how does the possessed vehicle move. I'd say the spirit just moves it itself and has nothing to do w/ the engine or anything else (especially if it has the movement power). If it's a car, it simply spins the wheels itself and forces the front wheels left or right. That's the only way for it to be compatible w/ the statement that it can't interact w/ the cars electronics (including drive by wire) but it can move the vehicle.
Then there's other little tidbits... a rigger must spend one pass making doing a pilot check or it's out of control. Does this also apply to a spirit acting as a rigger?
It's just a very wierd intermixing of the rules. It's a rigger but it isn't a rigger. The best way I can describe it is it's a rigger that can't access electronics and is stuck on manual control override only.
Quite frankly... I feel this can of worms would have better been left unopened, but it wasn't. Or limited to prepared vehicular prepared vessels only. But in any case, unlike normal mages... possession types don't have a weakness to drones in the traditional sense as they can pretty much disable them at will at the very least (and at the worst can turn them back against their users depending on how generous the GM is feeling).
Exactly my point... there isn't a consistent manner to handle an important aspect of possession traditions! If I were to sit down at one table... things can be radically different than at another. I see that as a critical failing of the system. Also maybe it didn't come through well, but my tone was rhetorical (especially at the end).
IF the GM is feeling generous... then yes do as you say... give it an agility score (probably equal to force) and let it default the test. Or maybe only allow it to control 'manual' weapon mounts (as the others are computer fired). Or maybe have a second spirit possess the gun and one drive. Another potential is.. it has no dice, it just can't use the full function of the drone.
The same problem comes up with the humanoid Otomo... there is no agility rating on the drone! The tests end up being command + skill or the rigging equivalent. Unlike a prepared homonculus vessel it has drone attributes, it doesn't have player attributes (str agi reac etc.).
Or here's another hypothetical... can you enhance an attribute which doesn't exist?! Can I cast 'increase agility' on a car? (I'd say that's a strong no... but the spirit can?). What exactly is the limit of magic in this regard.
As far as my answer to the last... how does the possessed vehicle move. I'd say the spirit just moves it itself and has nothing to do w/ the engine or anything else (especially if it has the movement power). If it's a car, it simply spins the wheels itself and forces the front wheels left or right. That's the only way for it to be compatible w/ the statement that it can't interact w/ the cars electronics (including drive by wire) but it can move the vehicle.
Then there's other little tidbits... a rigger must spend one pass making doing a pilot check or it's out of control. Does this also apply to a spirit acting as a rigger?
It's just a very wierd intermixing of the rules. It's a rigger but it isn't a rigger. The best way I can describe it is it's a rigger that can't access electronics and is stuck on manual control override only.
Quite frankly... I feel this can of worms would have better been left unopened, but it wasn't. Or limited to prepared vehicular prepared vessels only. But in any case, unlike normal mages... possession types don't have a weakness to drones in the traditional sense as they can pretty much disable them at will at the very least (and at the worst can turn them back against their users depending on how generous the GM is feeling).
How are traditional mages weak against drones again? And possession mages really can't "disable them at will". You need a force eight spirit to average 5 hits on the possession check, which is needed to equal the threshold 5 OR check. You can probably summon a force eight spirit without major issue (though it is generally physical drain), but you're not going to have very many bound spirits that strong due the insane drain and the 4000 
cost per, and you can only summon one spirit at a time. That means a possession mage can stand a decent chance of taking out one drone. I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever fought just one drone. Usually they come in packs.
cost per, and you can only summon one spirit at a time. That means a possession mage can stand a decent chance of taking out one drone. I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever fought just one drone. Usually they come in packs.
Zurai:
You're thinking in terms of average, not standard deviation. Also in terms of numbers... unless you're running solo... your street sam/rigger/decker will also be taking out drones. Just eliminating 1 is generally your fair share of the group total. Generally people don't expect mages to do a lot against drones compared to the other archetypes.
Force 6 generates on average 4 hits... but the actual statistical range is 3-5 typical. It can make an attempt once per pass while astral (3 passes/turn). So in a single combat pass, chances are very good that you'll have captured a drone w/ next to no risk to the astral spirit and will be able to deal with it at your leisure. (EG: stick it under an ECM have the decker plug right into it's fiber port and take it over, then have the spirit depart (or stay)). Captures are much more valuable generally than kills. If your group is under cover and pinned down for this time, it's not a huge problem.
No need really to use a bound spirit for this. Ideally, you'd use a summoned one on site for this. (force 6 isn't all that hard... and generally will only have 2-6 stun drain. Generally, I tend to summon a spirit like this an hour before the run to rest off the drain.
A normal mage has a lot of trouble hurting a drone. (powerbolt and other spells need to beat object resistance 5 on the direct front... and indirect spells have ungodly drain if cast w/ enough force to beat drones vehicular hardened armor). And a lot of their sneaker powers like illusions (invis) won't help against things like radar sensors.
Spirits run into the same problem, at best they have a ranged elemental attack (half armor) which can scratch the drone, but won't do a lot of damage. It'll take them probably a good combat turn to kill a drone using direct attacks. (natural weapon is less usefull as it's damage is force... but doesn't get the half armor benefit vs hardened armor). Otherwise, there's the doubtfull, accident power to force the drone to loose control and crash (it forces piloting checks) is a wild card in what it will actually do.
You're thinking in terms of average, not standard deviation. Also in terms of numbers... unless you're running solo... your street sam/rigger/decker will also be taking out drones. Just eliminating 1 is generally your fair share of the group total. Generally people don't expect mages to do a lot against drones compared to the other archetypes.
Force 6 generates on average 4 hits... but the actual statistical range is 3-5 typical. It can make an attempt once per pass while astral (3 passes/turn). So in a single combat pass, chances are very good that you'll have captured a drone w/ next to no risk to the astral spirit and will be able to deal with it at your leisure. (EG: stick it under an ECM have the decker plug right into it's fiber port and take it over, then have the spirit depart (or stay)). Captures are much more valuable generally than kills. If your group is under cover and pinned down for this time, it's not a huge problem.
No need really to use a bound spirit for this. Ideally, you'd use a summoned one on site for this. (force 6 isn't all that hard... and generally will only have 2-6 stun drain. Generally, I tend to summon a spirit like this an hour before the run to rest off the drain.
A normal mage has a lot of trouble hurting a drone. (powerbolt and other spells need to beat object resistance 5 on the direct front... and indirect spells have ungodly drain if cast w/ enough force to beat drones vehicular hardened armor). And a lot of their sneaker powers like illusions (invis) won't help against things like radar sensors.
Spirits run into the same problem, at best they have a ranged elemental attack (half armor) which can scratch the drone, but won't do a lot of damage. It'll take them probably a good combat turn to kill a drone using direct attacks. (natural weapon is less usefull as it's damage is force... but doesn't get the half armor benefit vs hardened armor). Otherwise, there's the doubtfull, accident power to force the drone to loose control and crash (it forces piloting checks) is a wild card in what it will actually do.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 2 2009, 02:35 AM)
Force 6 generates on average 4 hits... but the actual statistical range is 3-5 typical. It can make an attempt once per pass while astral (3 passes/turn). So in a single combat pass, chances are very good that you'll have captured a drone w/ next to no risk to the astral spirit and will be able to deal with it at your leisure.
This is very decidedly not "at will". "At will" would be a guaranteed or near guaranteed success and repeatable every time you wanted to. What you describe is a success that is quite likely to take several initiative passes and will only ever affect a maximum of one target at a time.
QUOTE
A normal mage has a lot of trouble hurting a drone. (powerbolt and other spells need to beat object resistance 5 on the direct front... and indirect spells have ungodly drain if cast w/ enough force to beat drones vehicular hardened armor).
(emphasis mine) False. All the indirect spells halve armor, and out-of-the-book drones don't really have very much armor to start with. Drones are also very vulnerable to electricity, and IME lightning bolt is the most common indirect spell. I certainly had no problem frying drones with lightning bolts on my mage that had it.
As a matter of fact, it's harder to take out a Steel Lynx with a spirit than it is with a lightning bolt. A single lightning bolt, even if it doesn't destroy the drone outright, stands a very good chance of knocking it out of commission for at least 3 combat turns (which will force it to crash, as well as making it an auto-hit for any weapon).
Wouldn't each Possession try after the first one get an additional -2 dice pool penalty for trying again?
-2 dice for the second try, -4 for the third, etc.
-2 dice for the second try, -4 for the third, etc.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 1 2009, 10:06 PM)
Or here's another hypothetical... can you enhance an attribute which doesn't exist?! Can I cast 'increase agility' on a car? (I'd say that's a strong no... but the spirit can?). What exactly is the limit of magic in this regard.
Under the (false) assumption you can cast a Health spell on a non-living subject, sure. It would simply have no effect, because Increase Agility is still subject to augmented maximums (1.5 * 0 = 0).
A possessing spirit, however, increases the current and augmented maximums by it's Force, so yes, a possessing spirit will 'give' a vehicle an Agility attribute.
QUOTE
IF the GM is feeling generous... then yes do as you say... give it an agility score (probably equal to force) and let it default the test. Or maybe only allow it to control 'manual' weapon mounts (as the others are computer fired). Or maybe have a second spirit possess the gun and one drive. Another potential is.. it has no dice, it just can't use the full function of the drone.
The same problem comes up with the humanoid Otomo... there is no agility rating on the drone! The tests end up being command + skill or the rigging equivalent. Unlike a prepared homonculus vessel it has drone attributes, it doesn't have player attributes (str agi reac etc.).
The same problem comes up with the humanoid Otomo... there is no agility rating on the drone! The tests end up being command + skill or the rigging equivalent. Unlike a prepared homonculus vessel it has drone attributes, it doesn't have player attributes (str agi reac etc.).
Don't the rules on cyborgs give guidelines for giving Attribute ratings to vehicles/drones? It's not a perfect fit, but it'll work well enough.
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 2 2009, 05:44 PM)
Don't the rules on cyborgs give guidelines for giving Attribute ratings to vehicles/drones? It's not a perfect fit, but it'll work well enough.
yes. it uses the cyborg's appropriate piloting skill. which just plain doesn't work, because a spirit doesn't pilot the drone the same way as a cyborg (well... ok, if you have an inhabitation spirit that inhabits a cyborg's meatbod and gets a flesh form merge, iirc, then the spirit would pilot the same way. but other than that, they don't pilot the drone the same way)
it also doesn't work, because those rules are for metahuman drones, which isn't what we're discussing (or at least, not specifically; such drones would certainly fall under the category of drones, natch).
just assign it an agility value the same as you would any other homunculus that isn't plasteel, stone, or wicker and call it a day. (heck, it's probably not that unlikely for the drone to be plasteel even, so just use that?)
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 1 2009, 11:35 PM)
Zurai:
You're thinking in terms of average, not standard deviation. Also in terms of numbers... unless you're running solo... your street sam/rigger/decker will also be taking out drones. Just eliminating 1 is generally your fair share of the group total. Generally people don't expect mages to do a lot against drones compared to the other archetypes.
Force 6 generates on average 4 hits... but the actual statistical range is 3-5 typical. It can make an attempt once per pass while astral (3 passes/turn). So in a single combat pass, chances are very good that you'll have captured a drone w/ next to no risk to the astral spirit and will be able to deal with it at your leisure. (EG: stick it under an ECM have the decker plug right into it's fiber port and take it over, then have the spirit depart (or stay)). Captures are much more valuable generally than kills. If your group is under cover and pinned down for this time, it's not a huge problem.
No need really to use a bound spirit for this. Ideally, you'd use a summoned one on site for this. (force 6 isn't all that hard... and generally will only have 2-6 stun drain. Generally, I tend to summon a spirit like this an hour before the run to rest off the drain.
A normal mage has a lot of trouble hurting a drone. (powerbolt and other spells need to beat object resistance 5 on the direct front... and indirect spells have ungodly drain if cast w/ enough force to beat drones vehicular hardened armor). And a lot of their sneaker powers like illusions (invis) won't help against things like radar sensors.
Spirits run into the same problem, at best they have a ranged elemental attack (half armor) which can scratch the drone, but won't do a lot of damage. It'll take them probably a good combat turn to kill a drone using direct attacks. (natural weapon is less usefull as it's damage is force... but doesn't get the half armor benefit vs hardened armor). Otherwise, there's the doubtfull, accident power to force the drone to loose control and crash (it forces piloting checks) is a wild card in what it will actually do.
You're thinking in terms of average, not standard deviation. Also in terms of numbers... unless you're running solo... your street sam/rigger/decker will also be taking out drones. Just eliminating 1 is generally your fair share of the group total. Generally people don't expect mages to do a lot against drones compared to the other archetypes.
Force 6 generates on average 4 hits... but the actual statistical range is 3-5 typical. It can make an attempt once per pass while astral (3 passes/turn). So in a single combat pass, chances are very good that you'll have captured a drone w/ next to no risk to the astral spirit and will be able to deal with it at your leisure. (EG: stick it under an ECM have the decker plug right into it's fiber port and take it over, then have the spirit depart (or stay)). Captures are much more valuable generally than kills. If your group is under cover and pinned down for this time, it's not a huge problem.
No need really to use a bound spirit for this. Ideally, you'd use a summoned one on site for this. (force 6 isn't all that hard... and generally will only have 2-6 stun drain. Generally, I tend to summon a spirit like this an hour before the run to rest off the drain.
A normal mage has a lot of trouble hurting a drone. (powerbolt and other spells need to beat object resistance 5 on the direct front... and indirect spells have ungodly drain if cast w/ enough force to beat drones vehicular hardened armor). And a lot of their sneaker powers like illusions (invis) won't help against things like radar sensors.
Spirits run into the same problem, at best they have a ranged elemental attack (half armor) which can scratch the drone, but won't do a lot of damage. It'll take them probably a good combat turn to kill a drone using direct attacks. (natural weapon is less usefull as it's damage is force... but doesn't get the half armor benefit vs hardened armor). Otherwise, there's the doubtfull, accident power to force the drone to loose control and crash (it forces piloting checks) is a wild card in what it will actually do.
You know... Spirits have a wonderful power for taking out drones... it is called Accident... Both Possession spirits and Materialization spirits can use this power...
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 31 2009, 09:45 PM)
The fact that the spirit has control of the drone is quite powerfull in itself though mind you. If I have 3 bound and one summoned spirits... each one can literally 'occupy' a drone and make the rigger pointless. Even worse... the spirits can uninhabit the drones one at a time when we're in a position to deal with them (or capture them... such as under the influence of a heavy duty jammer)
Please show us the page cite where your spirit can 'uninhabit' a vessel.
If I've read my SR4 / SR4a & SM correctly, they cannot do so willingly. They have to be forced out via vessel destruction or banishment.
QUOTE (darthmord @ Aug 3 2009, 03:51 PM)
Please show us the page cite where your spirit can 'uninhabit' a vessel.
If I've read my SR4 / SR4a & SM correctly, they cannot do so willingly. They have to be forced out via vessel destruction or banishment.
If I've read my SR4 / SR4a & SM correctly, they cannot do so willingly. They have to be forced out via vessel destruction or banishment.
A possession spirit and an inhabiting spirit are two very different things.
A possession spirit takes over a body for a limited duration, and can be forced out with banishing.
An inhabiting spirit takes over the body PERMANENTLY. The spirit, the person's mind, and the persons body merge together and can't be separated.
A possessing spirit can say "fuck this!" if the body is about to get hit by a truck and jump out, an inhabiting spirit just says "Oh, fuck.." and then gets hit by a truck.
Edit: I think Falconer just ment "depossess." (Is depossess the right verb? Drop possession?)
Correct: inhabitation and possession are two different things.
Just noticed a mistake I had missed... if the spirit fails to possess on the first try, it CANNOT try and do it again til the next sunrise or sunset. So no to multiple checks to possess an item...
Muspellsheimr:
I disagree... p86 vessel preparation... Homunculus vessels are a very special type, as are dead vessels, and both are quite distinct from object vessels.
An attribute for a vehicle is not 0... It doesn't exist! (big difference).
Just for arguments sake, if you did treat it in a manner similar to a stone homonculus... what would be the stat mods on it... straight agility and reaction don't seem right... there should be some substantial negatives in there. (plasteel has -1, stone has -3, wicker has some substantial drawbacks to get it's +1)
I think it's reaction +- handling - manual control penalty (slight mod on pilot/reaction +- handling). (the spirit is the 'driver' but it can't benefit from the normal drive by wire control enhancements taken out by manual control override).
And I can see extending that to gunner, it's the spirit manning the gun (at least for something like a huey doorgun... I'm not so sure if that extends neatly to electronic turrets though (as in SR I doubt those have mechanical firing mechanisms). And again... then we enter the hypothetical above of... what is the body's agility penalty/bonus. (mostly penalty as bonuses tend to come from computerized control enhancements).
Tymeus:
okay... I have a doberman standing behind a low wall gunning down my meat shields and getting ready to hose me through cover (shooting through barrier).
There is nothing in the accident power which mentions object resistance. So that's a point...
"If a critter uses accident against a vehicle, it can force the driver to make a crash test". So we have pilot + maneuver autosoft + handling - power.
We end up w/ what then... no speed... no damage. Low speed... bod/2 damage... drones have a lot of armor for their low body scores so that's a 4:1 soak. Your best best is hoping the pool is reduced enough that it glitches for fun stuff.
Jaid:
Probably best course... just take the -1 agi, and -1 rea from plasteel and call it a day as a rule of thumb.
Just noticed a mistake I had missed... if the spirit fails to possess on the first try, it CANNOT try and do it again til the next sunrise or sunset. So no to multiple checks to possess an item...
Muspellsheimr:
I disagree... p86 vessel preparation... Homunculus vessels are a very special type, as are dead vessels, and both are quite distinct from object vessels.
An attribute for a vehicle is not 0... It doesn't exist! (big difference).
Just for arguments sake, if you did treat it in a manner similar to a stone homonculus... what would be the stat mods on it... straight agility and reaction don't seem right... there should be some substantial negatives in there. (plasteel has -1, stone has -3, wicker has some substantial drawbacks to get it's +1)
I think it's reaction +- handling - manual control penalty (slight mod on pilot/reaction +- handling). (the spirit is the 'driver' but it can't benefit from the normal drive by wire control enhancements taken out by manual control override).
And I can see extending that to gunner, it's the spirit manning the gun (at least for something like a huey doorgun... I'm not so sure if that extends neatly to electronic turrets though (as in SR I doubt those have mechanical firing mechanisms). And again... then we enter the hypothetical above of... what is the body's agility penalty/bonus. (mostly penalty as bonuses tend to come from computerized control enhancements).
Tymeus:
okay... I have a doberman standing behind a low wall gunning down my meat shields and getting ready to hose me through cover (shooting through barrier).
There is nothing in the accident power which mentions object resistance. So that's a point...
"If a critter uses accident against a vehicle, it can force the driver to make a crash test". So we have pilot + maneuver autosoft + handling - power.
We end up w/ what then... no speed... no damage. Low speed... bod/2 damage... drones have a lot of armor for their low body scores so that's a 4:1 soak. Your best best is hoping the pool is reduced enough that it glitches for fun stuff.
Jaid:
Probably best course... just take the -1 agi, and -1 rea from plasteel and call it a day as a rule of thumb.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 3 2009, 08:38 PM)
drones have a lot of armor for their low body scores so that's a 4:1 soak. Your best best is hoping the pool is reduced enough that it glitches for fun stuff.
Maybe it's different in Arsenal -- I don't have a copy handy -- but in the basic book, only two drones have armor above 2 (Doberman with 6 and Steel Lynx with 9).
personally, i would rule that the accident power requires the drone to move in response to something. so if it isn't moving, then maybe a chunk of the ceiling starts collapsing above it, forcing it to move out of the way. it *is* a magical accident targeting something after all, not just a random accident...
Incidently, does anyone think that the entire possession rules are bad conceptually, not just mechanically.
You cannot possess and then animate giant budda statues, but you do want to possess all sorts of electronic/mechanical junk. This is lame in the extreme.
You cannot possess and then animate giant budda statues, but you do want to possess all sorts of electronic/mechanical junk. This is lame in the extreme.
if the buddha statue had moveable parts, you *would* be able to possess it and animate it. if the electrical devices have no moveable parts, you can't animate it. it has nothing to do with what the object is (well, it does make it harder or easier i suppose, and for what it's worth, the buddha statue is definitely easier to possess), it's whether or not the object has movable parts. so, (sadly) you can't possess the statue of liberty and make it walk down the roads carrying 4 people with nuclear-powered particle beam weapons... unless you first install some hinges that is 
Does the use of Accident power on a drone *have to* result in a Crash test?
If using it on a human can cause getting a mouthful of leaves or ejecting a clip, couldn't similar things also happen to drones? Gun jamming, tire getting stuck in mud or something like that?
If using it on a human can cause getting a mouthful of leaves or ejecting a clip, couldn't similar things also happen to drones? Gun jamming, tire getting stuck in mud or something like that?
QUOTE
If a critter uses Accident against a vehicle, it can force the driver
to make a Crash Test. The critter’s Magic attribute serves as a negative
dice pool modifier to the test.
to make a Crash Test. The critter’s Magic attribute serves as a negative
dice pool modifier to the test.
it can. it doesn't have to?
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 4 2009, 03:51 PM)
if the buddha statue had moveable parts, you *would* be able to possess it and animate it. if the electrical devices have no moveable parts, you can't animate it. it has nothing to do with what the object is (well, it does make it harder or easier i suppose, and for what it's worth, the buddha statue is definitely easier to possess), it's whether or not the object has movable parts. so, (sadly) you can't possess the statue of liberty and make it walk down the roads carrying 4 people with nuclear-powered particle beam weapons... unless you first install some hinges that is
Yeah, have you ever seen a big budda statue with moveable parts? No? Niether have I, and thats pretty much the point. I suspect part of the definition of statue actually includes no moveable parts.
Animated statues and other inanimate objects are pretty much literitary stables, whereas bank atms possessed by spirits... much less so. Therefore the rules suck.
Than change them, a spell that can't do what it's supposed to do is just as bad as the spells that do the impossible. I'm looking at you, Turn to Goo and Turn to Stone!
About the subject line: the answer is "yes". Who cares if it posesses a drone or a car. OK, that's a valid care. But even if it can't, it's overpowered. One of the reasons is that spirits don't scale well-- they are over powered. Giving them a skill equal to force get's nasty.
In SR3, my troll w/ a weapon 1/anchor 1 (frost aura) combo-focus combat axe could pop force 6 spirit in one shot every time. Not so anymore-- w/ an agility around 6, an unarmed skill of 6, and an anchor focus too costly to buy and bond (and aura spells changed some) it's tougher. If the spirit has fear, he'd get 12 dice vs. my (former) troll's 6 to make me turn and run if I don't one shot him-- attacks against 1 dice pool are another problem.
We are in a group that is about 110 career karma.
Our elf vodoo shaman has a Magic of 8, Chanelling metamagic, and is our face.... and tank... and armorer... and weapons specialist.
He routinely summons a force 8 spirit, and can bind a force 6-- even invoke it. A force 8 spirit can arguably possess a dragon (if both use edge, that's the argument). Having 16 dice to posess someone that can only defend w/ Will + Int is insane. And for some reason, there's no subsequent break out attempts, like mental manipulations is insane.
Now, that force 8 spirit can be summon from behind cover as we lay a supression fire-- the rest of the team is really just lackys for the Vodoo guy. It will be a Gaurdian spirit w/ the needed combat skill, and he'll take over the biggest threat and turn that HMG or whatever on them. That posessed target now enjoys his old Body/Armor + 8 to soak, and an additional 16 armor (immunity to normal weapons), which will be handy w/ that old Reaction + 8 to passively avoid hits.
He can also summon a Task spirit w/ a skill of 8 in any of the listed skills. This includes medicine/first aid/infiltration. I made a pretty good vessal for a Task spirit to use to get my Agility (5) + his 6 (small one) and the Infilitration skill to unlock a mechanical lock w/ a DP of 17 even though I didn't have the skill. It's spirit skill wires.
The hacker still get's to do things during the run, but me (now a Orc) and the current troll aren't even needed for fodder really. Remember, in addition he's still a mage, so he get's to scout astral and dual cast Stun Bolts or Influence/Mass Mind Control. He has learned to give contengency orders to his spirits ahead of time, so he can cast and not have to spend a simple action to instruct them more often than not (though sometimes he has to redirect them, b/c of an unexpected change of events).
Yes... it's so broke that I wonder how much play testing actually went into this?
In SR3, my troll w/ a weapon 1/anchor 1 (frost aura) combo-focus combat axe could pop force 6 spirit in one shot every time. Not so anymore-- w/ an agility around 6, an unarmed skill of 6, and an anchor focus too costly to buy and bond (and aura spells changed some) it's tougher. If the spirit has fear, he'd get 12 dice vs. my (former) troll's 6 to make me turn and run if I don't one shot him-- attacks against 1 dice pool are another problem.
We are in a group that is about 110 career karma.
Our elf vodoo shaman has a Magic of 8, Chanelling metamagic, and is our face.... and tank... and armorer... and weapons specialist.
He routinely summons a force 8 spirit, and can bind a force 6-- even invoke it. A force 8 spirit can arguably possess a dragon (if both use edge, that's the argument). Having 16 dice to posess someone that can only defend w/ Will + Int is insane. And for some reason, there's no subsequent break out attempts, like mental manipulations is insane.
Now, that force 8 spirit can be summon from behind cover as we lay a supression fire-- the rest of the team is really just lackys for the Vodoo guy. It will be a Gaurdian spirit w/ the needed combat skill, and he'll take over the biggest threat and turn that HMG or whatever on them. That posessed target now enjoys his old Body/Armor + 8 to soak, and an additional 16 armor (immunity to normal weapons), which will be handy w/ that old Reaction + 8 to passively avoid hits.
He can also summon a Task spirit w/ a skill of 8 in any of the listed skills. This includes medicine/first aid/infiltration. I made a pretty good vessal for a Task spirit to use to get my Agility (5) + his 6 (small one) and the Infilitration skill to unlock a mechanical lock w/ a DP of 17 even though I didn't have the skill. It's spirit skill wires.
The hacker still get's to do things during the run, but me (now a Orc) and the current troll aren't even needed for fodder really. Remember, in addition he's still a mage, so he get's to scout astral and dual cast Stun Bolts or Influence/Mass Mind Control. He has learned to give contengency orders to his spirits ahead of time, so he can cast and not have to spend a simple action to instruct them more often than not (though sometimes he has to redirect them, b/c of an unexpected change of events).
Yes... it's so broke that I wonder how much play testing actually went into this?
On the subject of a troll popping a Force 6 spirit every time...
Troll Physad. Agility 6, Blades (Axe) 5(7), Improved ability 3, Weapon focus 1. 17 dice. Strength 9, we'll say, so damage is 8P (Str/2+3, -1AP - or is it -2...?), and a reach of 2.
Force 6 spirit. 12 dice, damage varies by attack.
Suppose for the moment the troll goes first. On average, the troll will pull up 6 successes, suppose a DP of 17. The spirit defends with 10 dice, since the troll uses reach to lower the spirit's defense, and gets 3 successes. 4 net successes. Spirit must soak with 6 dice of body (supposing the spirit type has no body bonus or penalty) and generates 2 successes.
Total damage: 10p. Spirit is almost dead. I fail to see how SR4 has gimped the character tremendously. Remember: Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply against a Weapon Focus, Killing Hands, or any of that.
Fear has always been harsh, IMO.
Troll Physad. Agility 6, Blades (Axe) 5(7), Improved ability 3, Weapon focus 1. 17 dice. Strength 9, we'll say, so damage is 8P (Str/2+3, -1AP - or is it -2...?), and a reach of 2.
Force 6 spirit. 12 dice, damage varies by attack.
Suppose for the moment the troll goes first. On average, the troll will pull up 6 successes, suppose a DP of 17. The spirit defends with 10 dice, since the troll uses reach to lower the spirit's defense, and gets 3 successes. 4 net successes. Spirit must soak with 6 dice of body (supposing the spirit type has no body bonus or penalty) and generates 2 successes.
Total damage: 10p. Spirit is almost dead. I fail to see how SR4 has gimped the character tremendously. Remember: Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply against a Weapon Focus, Killing Hands, or any of that.
Fear has always been harsh, IMO.
How many services are these magicians normally getting on these force 6-8 spirits?
QUOTE (Leehouse @ Aug 4 2009, 04:17 PM)
How many services are these magicians normally getting on these force 6-8 spirits?
The voodoo priestess in my game currently has the following spirits bound:
Water 5 Great Form, 3 services.
Guardian 7 Great Form, 8 services (MASSIVE roll on her part, but she had to perma-burn edge to keep the summoning from killing her cuz she flubbed drain)
Task 6 Great Form, 5 services.
Air 6, 4 services.
It's not unlikely to get a lot of services if you blow edge and convince me your spirits shouldn't. Which is in turn easy if you 'waste' services on stuff like, "Go get laid," "Go eat cake," and "Go drink rum." The spirits like that. But on the flip side, sometimes I tell you to burn permanent edge or die because the force 7 guardian spirit got a freakish 11 dice on his resistance, and that'd be enough to kill your PC outright.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 4 2009, 06:15 PM)
On the subject of a troll popping a Force 6 spirit every time...
Troll Physad. Agility 6, Blades (Axe) 5(7), Improved ability 3, Weapon focus 1. 17 dice. Strength 9, we'll say, so damage is 8P (Str/2+3, -1AP - or is it -2...?), and a reach of 2.
Force 6 spirit. 12 dice, damage varies by attack.
Suppose for the moment the troll goes first. On average, the troll will pull up 6 successes, suppose a DP of 17. The spirit defends with 10 dice, since the troll uses reach to lower the spirit's defense, and gets 3 successes. 4 net successes. Spirit must soak with 6 dice of body (supposing the spirit type has no body bonus or penalty) and generates 2 successes.
Total damage: 10p. Spirit is almost dead. I fail to see how SR4 has gimped the character tremendously. Remember: Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply against a Weapon Focus, Killing Hands, or any of that.
Fear has always been harsh, IMO.
Troll Physad. Agility 6, Blades (Axe) 5(7), Improved ability 3, Weapon focus 1. 17 dice. Strength 9, we'll say, so damage is 8P (Str/2+3, -1AP - or is it -2...?), and a reach of 2.
Force 6 spirit. 12 dice, damage varies by attack.
Suppose for the moment the troll goes first. On average, the troll will pull up 6 successes, suppose a DP of 17. The spirit defends with 10 dice, since the troll uses reach to lower the spirit's defense, and gets 3 successes. 4 net successes. Spirit must soak with 6 dice of body (supposing the spirit type has no body bonus or penalty) and generates 2 successes.
Total damage: 10p. Spirit is almost dead. I fail to see how SR4 has gimped the character tremendously. Remember: Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply against a Weapon Focus, Killing Hands, or any of that.
Fear has always been harsh, IMO.
I never said "gimped", I said changed. The spirit is tougher now, and those were also greater form spirits (they had a reach of 1, but w/ combat I had a total of 3) I was one shotting. The spirit defends w/ Force, plus Reaction-- which is modified by spirit type, but I think a DP of 14 is more fair than 10, since most spirits are F+2 (some F+4) for Reaction. The spirit averages 4.66 success, vs. your PhysAd's 6.66. AP doesn't matter, but you have a base DV of 9P w/ the combat axe at that Str. Bumped to 11, and the spirit takes 9 on average. No one shot: two, just like I thought.
I was also an aspected sorcerer, and didn't have Improved Ability. Aspected Sorcerer are very, very different now. Anyway, the topic isn't about this, it was an aside.
QUOTE (Leehouse @ Aug 4 2009, 06:17 PM)
How many services are these magicians normally getting on these force 6-8 spirits?
Our papa voodoo has a pool of 12 dice to summon unbound, so he's getting about 1 to 3 services from a force 8. The average drain is 4 or 6, and at 110 career karma or so, both Will and Charisma are augmented max for his elf-- that's a DP of 21 dice, averaging 7 hits.
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