With System Failure and 4e looming in the future, the question of what will happen to the otaku as a result of all this has come up several time, and along with it the debate over exactly what they are. This thread is for the discussion of the latter question.

When I read the first rules for the Otaku in VR 2.0, my first thoughts were: matrix based magicians, that's kinda neat, don't know how playable they are though. Since that, through their development in various books and having people play them in my games, my opinion has changed somewhat.

First off, despite all the implications on the subject, otaku really don't seem like they are awakened. I know there has been lots of stuff put in that makes it seem like they might be, but there are a few things that seem to make this impossible. One, their abilities are not affected in any way by their essence. So far this has been universal amongst the awakened, so it would be a radical shift that would completely change the concept of "awakened" to have otaku be awakened. Two, their abilities seem to fade. No other awakened being undergoes such a phenomenon. Three, AI seem to be able to make people otaku, while this could just be them finding those with the potential and somehow awakening them, I think this phenomenon better supports another theory.

So, if not awakened, what are they? My opinion is that they are individuals who have had their brains hacked by either an AI or the mysterious entities known as the Resonance and dissonance. The Resonance created the first otaku with some unknown goal in mind, hacking the brains of children because they were easy to influence. However, it put a safety on the original otaku, not wanting them to cause problems once they became harder to influence, so it created them with the Fading built into the programming (I say this because there are examples of non-fading otaku (Red Wraith) and the logic presented for the fading in Matrix is bloody stupid). Deus and other AI either studied the original otaku or somehow worked out the process for themselves, and created their own otaku (to my knowledge no AI otaku have faded yet, so it is unknown if Deus set his otaku up to fade). The Dissonance, capitalizing on the safety measure of the Resonance, makes an offer to certain otaku to help them avoid the fading in exchange for service.

I'm not going to speculate here on what this would mean as far as otaku surviving System Failure, as that's not why I created this thread. Any other thoughts on what the Otaku are?

1. The Otaku are not magical. It makes for convenient mechanics when Submerging, but other than that the very idea is absurd.

2. Red Wraith is not a non-Fading Otaku. He's an adult who was turned into an Otaku by an AI, but unlike Deus-created Otaku, functions as one in the Matrix.

I'm aware that Red Wraith was made an otaku by an AI, but he is still over the age of 21 and showing no signs of fading.

The submersion rules are one point that people have pointed to in saying otaku are awakened, and I agree that it was a matter of a convenient rule set to use rather than trying to imply they were magical in nature. (Given the desire to streamline the rules sets, it makes perfect sense to use the same rules for both, even though they have nothing to do with each other).

The strongest argument for Otaku being magical in nature is the fact that they can not have any magic (well, that was the way it was in 2nd ed, I don't know that I've ever bothered to check in 3rd ed), which strongly implies that something about their nature focuses any magical ability into their matrix abilities, or at least that the 2 are related in some way. I don't know the reason for doing this originally, but it does make them seem connected. I don't really like the idea of otaku being magical, thus the theory I presented, but this is the one sticking point I can't get past. If anyone has an in game explanation for this other than otaku are magical (i.e. not game balance), I'd love to hear it.

They can SURGE.

As for the Submersion rules, I think it was a matter of the guys who created the rules finding the most convenient analog in the existing Initiation rules. Once the developers got ahold of it, it was pretty much cut & pasted. I have no idea why they felt the need for Submersion and Fading, but I do know that they reject the idea of Otaku being magical.

Well, my theory goes that otaku were children who *tried* to Awaken, but got lost somewhere along the way. The thing about that is, *everyone* has a little magic in them, or is at least somewhat magical in nature. This is why people have auras that you can assense, can be affected by mana spells (which don't affect things unconnected with the astral plane like metal), stuff like that. As I see it, when you Awaken your body/mind/soul/whatever reaches out to the astral plane(s) and forges a stronger connection with it/them, essecially in a grab for power, which is why many children first awaken under stressful conditions (MitS p. .

The Otaku, however, had a different experience. Having spent so much of their time in the Matrix at such young ages, their fragile little minds began to mistake the world of the Matrix for the astral plane. So when they tried to Awaken, instead of reacing for power into the astral they reached into the Matrix instead.

In short, Otaku are *weird*.

(Edit): Btw, there's also the cyberadept/technoshaman thing giving confusion.

Wow.

Wow that's brilliant? Wow that's obvious? Wow that's the stupidest thing you ever heard? Wow Visine can remove redness and has an ingredient to moisturize? Throw me a bone here.

Hmm, I like the theory, although it doesn't explain how AIs create otaku, why they fade, or why all of the early otaku spoke of what seems to be a consistent entity (the Resonance). Does a brilliant job of explaining the magic like qualities though.

The Otaku seem to touch on the metaphysical side of cyberpunk. Life is information. Information is life. The physical world, the Astral plane, and the matrix are all worlds of information. The only differance is the form that that information takes. In astral it is mana, shaped and aspected by life and by the will of magicians. In the physical world it is atoms and molecules bound together by physical forces. In the Matrix it is pure math stored as pulses of light or clusters of electrons.

The matrix is no mor or less valid than the physical or the astral. As it grows it becomes equivilant to the astral in relation to the physical. The resonance and disonance are to the matrix which the manasphere is to the Astral plane. As the manashpere is an effect that is promoted by life so is the Resonence and the Disonance. Everyone who interacts with the matrix contributs to them in some way.

Well it *can*, though I'm essentially building castles out of air at this point. Answered in reverse order (as it makes more sense that way)

Why all of the early otaku spoke of what seems to be a consistent entity (the Resonance): Well, I freely admit I don't know much about the Deep Resonance and such, but from what I read it sounds more like an experience than a person. "Experiencing the Deep Resonance" for Otaku is like Awakening is for mages. In fact, the resonance well otaku use to submerge looks and acts to similar to the magical link for magical groups.

How AIs create otaku (but obviously can't make people Awaken): Experiencing the Deep Resonance is fundamentally different from experiencing Awakening, as the entirety of the experience, the reaching-and-linking of the mind onto something greater than it, is completely physical in nature. This makes it possible for an AI to, unlike

Why they fade: Well, eventually the human mind rejects Maxtrixspace as defintately not being he astral plane. Basically this means yo burn ot or save..

Anyway, how are those for preliminary answers?

Eyeless--I'll throw my hat in the brilliant and creative circle.

The Resonance is a bit murky, and I would guess this is in part because it has been thought of in different ways by different developers. On the one hand, there ins the concept of "Experiencing the Deep Resonance," and on the other it seems to also act as guiding force, if not something that gives direct instructions. From VR 2.0 "Technoshamans report ... they encounter a being, or beings who give them the seed knowledge that grows into their ability in the Matrix" "Sometimes they enter enter these states again and when they return they have gained new abilities or received a mission which the must carry out." These imply some active influence and agenda, especially with another quote (again from VR 2.0) that I like as far as my brain hacking theory "Often, otaku on a mission seem devoid of anything a human would recognize as compassion. But in the main, otaku missions turn out to be for the benefit of liberty and humanity at large... as if they were dictated by some source that perceives the interplay of seemingly unrelated, even trivial, events..."

Matrix actually explicitly calls the Deep Resonance an entity, pp 134 "Most otaku are create through contact with the mysterious Matrix entity called the Deep Resonance." I just noted that the above quotes for VR 2.0 are repeated in Matrix, also on pp 134 under the heading The Deep Resonance.

Hm, that's a good point. The Deep Resonance could easily be just another AI, one that just likes to keep a low profile and has a different sort of God-complex than Deus and the rest. Either way, though, I like the idea of the otaku somehow having the Awakening effect of an astral self subverted, rather than it "just" being some AI low-level formatting their brains. The later just makes it too easy to duplicate, really; adding magic into the equation just makes it more unique.

Just extrapolating on that EB: how does the Deep Resonance interact with the Otaku magically?

I mean, fundamentally, the "matrix" is not a place, nor is it a level of reality: it's just a collection of data and data-transactions.

Do the Otaku, in attempting to "awaken" and reach out to the Matrix instead of the Astral, somehow reformat their own minds and brains to deal with the matrix as they do? If this is the case, how do they interact with the Deep Resonance, and why are their abilities unharmed by cyberware?

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not altogether convinced that it holds together.
Shadowrun posits all kinds of, interesting... questions about consciousness, technology and magic and how they interact. I guess I just think about it too much.
See here about halfway down the page for something vaguely, distantly, possibly relevant.

It's a cool idea though.

Interesting theories!

I personally find this part much more interesting than if we'd come out and said how otaku work. I like that there are threads discussing and debating it and coming up with theories I wouldn't have thought of myself. Also, there's the fact that I don't even know for sure how otaku work!

I can answer a few things though. Don't make the automatic link that because they use a similar system for Submersion as magicians do for Initiation, otaku are magical. I'm a long-time fan of the idea of streamlined Shadowrun rules, and when I spoke to other freelancers and then finally sat down to write the otaku chapter in Matrix, I decided that otaku really shouldn't have an entirely different system and mechanics. There was no really good reason for me to write one up. The system for Initiation already worked and did what I wanted to accomplish with Submersion.

Fading. I'm not sure where to start with Fading. I mean, I can already hear the teeth gnashing, "If you thought otaku shouldn't have different mechanics, what's up with Fading?" Well, possibly a bad choice of mine. The problem with otaku is that they were developed originally to be played as NPCs, not PCs, and then we added optional rules for them to be PCs. So when writing for them, I was stuck between developing them along the lines to be PC-friendly (simple to make, balanced, etc.) and developing them as source material (cool NPC and plot elements).

The original otaku were children. Dirty, weird, tribal street urchins and isolated, handicapped, genius kids. It is a great and unusual element to the setting, a post-cyberpunk twist on Peter Pan's Lost Boys and other fae-myths. But it was also vanishing as players rushed to make adult otaku "shadowrunners" and as the novels introduced more and more adult otaku. Fading was an effort to retain that element, give a motivation to all otaku (how can we stop Fading?), develop their tribal societies (how do we associate with the Faded?) and stem a rush of potentially unbalanced otaku PCs, all in one, while still fitting in the spirit of otaku.

The idea in my mind (not necessarily the single "Truth"), is that the Matrix is an ever-evolving layer of information; new technologies are constantly coming out which rewrite the way things work. New computing languages, new system architectures, new hardware developments, etc. It's similar to learning a language, but imagine the language changing significantly ever few years, far more rapidly than languages tend to evolve. My thought was that children (especially otaku children) have still-developing brains capable of adjusting to these changes. As their brains fixate in their development as they age (and most human brains are pretty fixated in development by your 20s), they have trouble adapting to these constant changes. They don't lose their abilities overnight, but they find themselves unable to keep up. Eventually, the underlying language of the Matrix is foreign to them, and they, like other deckers, require computer assistance to help them interpret it.

Its a matter of... how to say this. Flexability. Someone around here has a .sig that runs something like "Adults dont tell children dragons exist. Children allready know the exist, adults tell them they can be killed." Whom ever that is, pardon my butchery.

My point is they fade (IMO) because the devolpe too much of a rigid mental state. You dont find 20 year olds running around the park shooting the air with sticks, fighting off the invading Azi army.

That being said, E Blond, I LOVE the discription you gave for what otaku actually are. Lets hope that holds true for 4e. Big changes and whatnot.

My number-one-question actually doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they're magical.

What will happen to the little guys during the next crash?

I can't say anything about that though. Which is why I didn't touch it.

In the future, there will be cyberears that have short-range satellite dish capability.

I understand the reason for fading from a game balance pov, as otaku on a time course of many years become absurdly powerful. I also did like it when they were kind of crazy NPC children, I like the Peter Pan stuff. On the other hand, I don't really buy any of the reasons of fading, as from a neurological perspective they just don't work. The massively increased placticity of childrens brains (there ability to learn some things like languages faster) disappears between age 7 and 10. If Fading were to occur due to that, it should happen no later than puberty and event that may be pushing a bit. As far as the developing too rigid of a mental state, that doesn't really work either. Not everyone actually does develop the supposedly rigid state we define as "adult," maintaining a more childlike view of the world to various degrees. Further the nature of the otaku does not lend itself to forming this the adult mindset, as they have massive evidence that their way is correct, and they have fairly little contact with adults to convince them otherwise.
Beyond that, there is the fact that at least some AI otaku, like Red Wraith, don't fade, and that the Dissonance seems to allow fading otaku to not fade. These things are what lead me to the programed fading of their abilities. The Resonance grants the ability, and it takes it away. I do kind of like the thought that undergoing the Resonance warps any latent magical ability they may have by view the matrix as astral space making it impossible for them to truly awaken. I don't know that I consider undergoing the Resonance a warped awakening, but it's very nature warps their minds in such a way that they can not awaken normally (I'd imagine they still could with active training, esspecially given that one of the Immortal Rule-breakers, err elves learned the otaku abilities, iirc).

I would just go with a simple manner of making the Otaku keep with SOTA with a minor Karma expenditure, some studying, and some expenditure of money. The Karma would be negligible becuase it is Karma that keeps the character going. Studying/practicin g would be anything form reading the latest computer theories to practice runs. The money would be for paying for deckers and othe Otaku to have "safe" matrix fights, paying for special sim time, and setting up practice runs.

Indeed, I kinda like lorthazar's idea for a system. A consequence of it is that you can--and probably should--lower the costs of Submersion, as currently it costs as much as a mage's non-ordeal group initiation but with fewer benefits.

Well not necessarily. I contend that, at least in the astral world, the things that use astral space and the things that give astral space are one and the same. But this is rather far afield from the original topic, so let's move it elsewhere, hm?

(Edit): Actually, on further consideration this can't be true. If it were then there'd be no mana cycle, so there must be some outside factor keeping astral space accessible. I suppose one could make the argument that the earth itself is alive and intelligent, and therefore contributing to the existence of astral space or something, but that's getting a little far-fetched without any real evidence. I don't suppose Earthdawn makes some mention of the planet itself having self-awareness, does it?

Now you going into Spirits Within and the Gaia Theory

Never. Mention. That. Movie. AGAIN.

*heads off to stab brain with a toothpick*

I was rather a fan of the otaku being magical in nature. I seem to recall in one novel a shaman looking at an otaku on the astral as he decked in and his aura flowerd out of his body and up the data cable as he logged on. I thought it was realy a neat concept, and internaly consistent with the game universe.

@Halabis
If you could extend on why you think otaku as magical in nature is internally consistent, I would love to hear it. I wouldn't be totally opposed to them being magical if it didn't seem so out of sync with every other magical thing in the world. Initially, before I really thought it through carefully I liked the idea of them being mages of the machine and the Resonance being a Great Spirit of the machine, but I just can't see the consistency in it.

I would say hands down the oldest Otaku is dodger. Now he is clearly an AI made Otaku, but damn

Dodger is a decker. He has an insanly powerfull AI following him around like a lost puppy. Do not screw with dodger.

Backing Lindt up on this one. Dodger is a decker. Ronin is an AI created Otaku thats on the old side along with Red Wraith.

The oldest none AI created Otaku that I'm aware of is Syzygy though Amor is also a posibility and there both fading.

@ Eyeless
I didn't think it was a bad film, but then i never played any of the games.

Which of the Hacker House admins are Otaku? I know Syzygy is, but weren't there two others? They'd have to be getting on in years by now.

@Shanshu (With apologies to everyone else for more shameless thread-jacking):
Spirits come from the metaplanes, and can return their more or less at their convenience. The only real definition one can find of a metaplane is that it is a weird, story-like place that is Not Here - ie, it does not seem to correspond with our physical reality in any normal way. Works really well as a kind of "Otherworld"...

My question was rhetorical, intended to draw upon the point that there is more to what exists than can necessarily be immediately perceived (in SR Canon, at least).
To protect the innocent:

As to the Anthropic Principle and the matrix...well, the matrix is one of those places where the anthropic principle can and must apply: not only does the matrix only exist because humanity exists, it only exists because humanity built the whole ball of wax.


As to the Gibsonian Black IC can of worms: the reason I raise it is essentially as follows-> We have evidence of at least one, if not more AIs, that can cause complex modifications in the functioning of the human brain - modifications that correspond at least in part to "learned behaviour", ie you can practice and improve upon these abilities (channels, forms, etc).

We also have Psychoactive IC, which influences your behaviour.

This means that, by the sole agency of a datajack and simsense, it is possible to alter someone's mind and teach them stuff.

This does not mean that I think it should be possible to jack into a virtual tutor programme, and suddenly "I know kung fu", but that the technological implications of canon phenomena are that this may someday be possible...

This however is an issue of the underlying assumptions that influence what "reality" is in the canon game setting and their consistency: a lot of what turns up in novels, adventures and sourcebooks is there because it's cool, not necessarily because the author thought its implications for the game world all the way through. Otaku (especially 'artificial' otaku and adult otaku), Black IC, and psychoactive Black IC, all imply that the Datajack and simsense are capable of doing all kinds of interesting things to a human brain...

I haven't seen a lot of this creeping into canon lately, but I haven't been looking too hard the last few months, to be honest.
Both this area of research, and the somewhat-related area of "Why do people keep thinking even when they're turned to goo by magic" are going to be on the cutting edge of Corp R&D in my next SR game...

That, and the corps who use psychoactive IC to turn violent offenders into pacifists instead of imprisoning them...