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MYST1C
The current FanPro D newsletter can be found here (in German, of course).
It talks about the new SR4 matrix and gives excerpts from the SR4 core book.

Interesting information:
Not only hackers manipulate the wireless matrix - the "children of the matrix" (Otaku) still exist.
But now they are adults and are called "Technomancers"!
Tanka
So no more fading? I dunno, but I think that was half the interest of playing an otaku. Slowly losing your abilities until you had to rely on a deck.

It's not even out yet and I'm already missing the "old days."
apple
And a very rough altavista-translation (sounds very funny, but it should give an idea) wink.gif

QUOTE

Hello of people!

Only times a few information to current products: "enemy of my enemy" (English "Loose Alliances") is translated so well finished and goes soon into lektorat and sentence. The publication date desired of in the middle of June changes thereby in June/July, but it will become later in no case. The "system failure" is meanwhile still in the production of the American editorship. On German the book under the title will appear "system crash" - probably in October, I can call an exact date yet. The German book will contain in addition a 16-seitiges auxiliary chapters with the title "from the net", in which we deal particularly on the effects of the system crash with the ADL. Likewise in preparation is the world book "Shadowrun: The sixth world "with a comprehensive overview of the world of Shadowrun before and behind the window blinds, a list of all Shadowrun products including short description, in addition kurzgeschichten, interviews and much more besides. Publication date is in the middle of August.

And now to the all-monthly view on the 4. Shadowrun edition. As I marked already several times, much will remain with the old, while above all the matrix will substantially change. And thus only the rules are not meant, with which the hackers and technical Oman cerium follow to their job of the data robbery and the system manipulation. Above all the way, in which the matrix is noticed, changes drastically. One takes its forerunner, our current InterNet, and its increasing influence on our society, in the small one as example only as in the large one.

As for example this news type character here. In the year 2070 the matrix does not only represent a firm component of the life - it IS the most important component. Not only for the technically active characters, but also for the Magier and Stammeskrieger. Each kind of data exchange and nearly each kind of communication take place over the matrix. Electronic devices are steered no more with switches or remote maintenance, but directly via the matrix - even if they are in the own trouser pocket.

Such a thing has naturally a substantial influence on the game of roles in the year 2070, which one should not turn simply under the table, if one wants to enjoy the true flair of this Cyberfantasy play.

Therefore I attached an excerpt from the new matrix chapter, which is occupied particularly with the Augmented Reality, here once. The translation rises directly from my feather/spring and not one of our translators, I please therefore around indulgence with evtl. Sentence building defects. --

[note: uhoh, from english to german to english with internet translators ... ]


THE MATRIX IS DEAD - LONG LIVES THE MATRIX!
After the collapse of the traditional, ' verkabelten ' matrix in the year 2065 in the digital shade in such a way some changed. The old matrix with their data sockets, Cyberterminals and kilometer-long optical waveguide cables is not any more. In its place a world of slack communication (WiFi = Wireless Fidelity) is and extended electronic perception (ACRE = Augmented Reality) stepped. In the 4. Edtion of Shadowrun represents to each citizen a firm component of this all-comprehensive data world, realms just like arms, the honest ones just like the Ruchlosen. Those, which run into the shade, learned however to use the slack world for their advantage.

These ' hackers ' specialized to manipulate data to subject programs and machines their will and arrive at information, which was considered as surely stowed away. But the hackers are not the only specialists of this digital realm. ' are technical Oman cerium ' - become children arise for the matrix - able to affect the slack world alone by the strength of their understanding. Both hackers and technical Oman cerium specialized to tap and use slack Wi-Fi-networks. They do not only serve their Shadowrunner team with their ability to overcome safety systems and approach to important data, but also by leading and with their vehicles into a direct connection stepping whole armies from Dronen into the fight, which even a hochvercyberten Strassensamurai lets plae.

Above all hackers and technical Oman cerium are no longer longer to the ponderous Cyberdecks and verkabelten systems bound, with which their predecessors had to fight. They are now highly mobile and completely integrated members of their Shadowrunner team.

PERVASIVE COMPUTER WORLD

In the year 2070 computer-controlled devices are so pervasive that they everywhere are. Each form of electronics is steered by highly integrated processors, which are slackly with other devices and networks around them connected. One finds computers in articles of clothing, car, feuerwaffen, chairs, toilets, doors - everywhere. They are so usual and pervasive that most people already forgot that they are surrounded by computers at each time. Minutes, frequencies and transactions are standardized, so that it represents times a problem rarely to bring two arbitrary devices with one another in the discussion. They want to read your enamels, while you prepare the meal? A problem, you do not projezieren them simply on the Holodisplay of your refrigerator. Or during the run listen to the new favourite Song? No problem, simply the audio data over come left to the loudspeaker the pistol to lead and the dolls dance leave!

PERSONAL AREA NETWORK (pANs)

The average person of the yearly 2070 carries a whole number of computer-controlled devices with itself around, which are combined all into a micro network of this person: the personnel AREA network (PAN). This permits a multiplicity of advantages, like file sharing and data Backups and the comfortable heading for of equipment by another through.

COMMLINK

COMMLINKs on the left of are the ultimative PAN devices, and of jederman are used. They are a combination of slack rout, mobile telephone, video camera, PDA (personnel DATA Assistant), chip reader, Portemonnaie/Credstick and mobile playing equipment, everything in individual, highly integrated equipment, which one can carry or to the belt or the wrist fasten in the trouser pocket with itself. COMM on the left of are available in overwhelming variety of forms, sizes, colors and functions, devices eingewobenen of representative Head sets over decoration up to head implants or into the material of arbitrary articles of clothing.

COMM on the left of the center PAN form and permit the access to all devices connected with the PAN. No matter whether it concerns a telephone call to lead to play a video file taken up before a Cyberware diagnosis to query, the fuel supply of a Drone to examine or the bell place - all that and still much more can be settled comfortably by COMM left. In addition COMM on the left of permit a continuous slack entrance to the surrounding world. Messages cannot only be transferred be sent, is also possible for data and queried in the matrix, slack devices and networks - whether near or far - to head for is it the sales catalog of a shop, the PAN of a friend, from objects of interest radiated routistic information, or the matrix activity of sweet types in the Café.

AUGMENTED REALITY (ACRE) For most inhabitants of the world of the yearly 2070 the matrix is not a place, to which one can go, but rather a digital parallel world, which lies as overlay over the normal senses of the user. Data from the matrix are COMM left selected over and represented then over variety by interface devices. Of the Augmented Reality (extended reality) received data can be selected and/or blocked by the user freely. While both users the virtual bill of fare of a restaurant ACRE can see, only one of them hears the bell clay/tone one for it determined call, etc.. The simplest form of the Augmented Reality visual objects are well-known, also as AROs (= Augmented Reality Objects or also ' Arrows '). Visual data are received from the user and represented over its Cyberaugen, ACRE eyeglasses or contact contacts or projected with the help of a laser directly into his Retina. The data appear as spiritful illustrations or text in the field of vision of the user and can be shifted and/or converted there at will. Current tasks are illustrated in the center of the field of vision (however transparency, so that the material world is to be still recognized behind it), while everything else to the periphery can be shifted, where it is not in the way.


Perhaps someone can translate it more correctly?

SYL
Kagetenshi
I hate the term "WiFi" so very, very much.

Definitely seems to support the idea that SR4 is taking a transhumanist turn. I suppose we'll see.

~J
Spookymonster
Sounds like they're definitely going with a GITS-like augmented reality. Being able to hack a person's PAN seems very likely. There's even a hint of being able to hack cyberware (thru a headware commlink, at least).
MYST1C
QUOTE (apple)
Perhaps someone can translate it more correctly?

Part One:

THE MATRIX IS DEAD - LONG LIVE THE MATRIX!

After the collapse of the traditional "wired" Matrix in 2065 quite some things changed in the digital shadows. The old Matrix with its datajacks, cyberdecks and kilometers of optical cables exists no longer. Its place has been taken by a world of wireless communication (WiFi = Wireless Fidelity) and an enhanced electronic perception (AR = Augmented Reality).

In the 4th edition of Shadowrun every citizen is a fixed part of this encompassing data world, the rich as well as the poor, the honest ones as well as the bad guys. Those who run the shadows have learned to use the wireless world to their advantage. Those "Hackers" are specialised in data manipulation, controlling programs and machines and obtaining data thought stored safely. But the hackers are not the only specialists of this digital realm. "Technomancer" - the grown-up children of the Matrix - are able to manipulate the wireless world with the power of their mind alone.
Both hackers and technomancers are specialised in entering and exploiting wireless WiFi networks. They serve their shadowrunner team not only with their ability to break security systems and obtain important data but also by leading whole armies of drones into battle and entering a direct connection with their vehicles that make even highly cybered street samurais turn pale.

Most importantly, hacker and technomancer are no longer bound to the inflexible cyberdecks and wired systems their predecessors had to cope with. They are now highly mobile and fully integrated members of their shadowrunner team.
MidnightGhost
heh, The first thing my shadowrunner will do is learn enough electronics to stripout all those "hidden computers" so he can't be tracked by them.

Seems like fakeID's just became much more important.


ECM devices are now like bombs! Start one up and watch a area go black. No data for you!
MYST1C
Part Two:

UBIQUITOUS COMPUTER WORLD

In the year 2070 computer-controlled devices are so ubiquitous they are everywhere. Every kind of electronics is controlled by highly integrated processors that are wirelessly connected to other devices and networks around them. Computers can be found in pieces of clothing, cars, firearms, chairs, toilets, doors - everywhere. They are so common and ubiquitous that most people have already forgotten being surrounded by computers at all times.

Protocols, frequencies and transactions are standardised so it rarely poses a problem to let two random devices talk to each other. You want to read your emails while preparing food? No problem, just project them to your fridge's holo-display. Or listening to the new favorite song while on a 'run? No problem, send the audio data to the pistol's speakers via commlink and make the dolls dance!

MYST1C
Part Three:

PERSONAL AREA NETWORKS (PANs)

The average person in the year 2070 carries with him a bunch of computer-controlled devices which are united into that person's micro network: the Personal Area Network (PAN). This gives a number of advantages like file sharing, data backups and comfortable control of one device through another.
MYST1C
Part Four:

COMMLINKS

Commlinks are the ultimate PAN devices and are used by everybody. They are a combination of wireless router, mobile phone, video camera, PDA (Personal Data Assistant), chip reader, purse/credstick and mobile game device all in a single highly integrated unit that can be carried in a trouser pocket, mounted on the belt or wrist. Commlinks are available in an overwhelming variety of shapes, sizes, colors and functions from stylised headsets and jewelry to cranial implants and devices woven into clothing's fabric.

Commlinks are the center of a PAN and allow access to all devices connected to the PAN. Talking on the phone, playback of a video file recorded earlier, running cyberware diagnostics, checking a drone's fuel reserves or configuring the alarm clock - all this and much more can be done comfortably with the commlink.

Furthermore, commlinks allow a continuous wireless access to the surrounding world. Not only can messages be sent, data be transfered or requested from the Matrix, it is also possible to access wireless devices and networks - whether near or far - be it a shop's catalogue, the PAN of a friend, touristical information broadcast from sight-seeing locations or the Matrix activities of that sweet guy at the café.
MYST1C
Part Five:

AUGMENTED REALITY (AR)

For most inhabitants of the world of 2070 the Matrix is no place to go to but a digital parallel world that overlays the user's natural senses. Data from the Matrix is selected via commlink and then displayed by a variety of interface devices. Data received from the Augmented Reality can be freely selected or blocked by the user. While two AR users could both see a restaurant's virtual menu only one of them hears his incoming call's ringtone, etc.

The most basic form of Augmented Reality are visual objects known as AROs (Augmented Reality Objects aka "Arrows"). Visual data is received by the user and then displayed by his cybereyes, AR goggles or contact lenses or directly projected to his retina by a laser. The data appears as ghostly pictures or text in the user's field of vision and can then be repositioned or converted as he sees fit. Current tasks are displayed in the FOV's center (transparent so the real world beyond is still visible) while everything else can be repositioned to the periphery where it's not in the way.
Crimsondude 2.0
I don't know whether or not to be glad there are no surprises so far with this stuff.

I mean, commlink, gee, I don't know. I wish I had something like that in my 3e games. Oh, wait...
mmu1
Is it just me, or does this stuff not seem even remotely plausible given only a 5-year jump in timeline?

We're going from a world in which display and image links were different pieces of cyeber to pervasive augmented reality in 5 years? (less really, considering the amount of time that'll inevitably be wasted running in circles screaming when the Matrix goes down and everything goes tits-up?)

And runners are supposed to buy into this BS wholesale, never mind the way it all screams "security risk"?

Also, does anyone else think that "technomancers" are just about one of the worst ideas you've ever heard of? Making magic and technology more and more interchangeable only serves to undermine the most important thing that actually makes SR different from every other cyberpunk-ish setting...

Hey, I have an idea - let's allow mundane "nanomancers" to wirelessly control nanobot swarms that'll let you do all kinds of neat stuff like superheat the air in a given area, or shock someone's nervous system with electricty, or bend the light around you to make you disappear, or dissolve the bullet flying at you in midair, or bond to your body to make you stronger, or attach to someone else and probe their nervous system, reading their mind! Wouldn't that be just fucking awesome? sarcastic.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
No, because AR is within the realm of reality. "Nanomancers," as the preceding thread has shown, aren't.
littlesean
M¥$T1C, thanks. My German really sucks (I have never had any classes or been to Germany), and I appreciate the translation. My Spanish is decent, which for a white American male is a little out of the norm. I am guessing that those that visit this board are, for the most part, out of the norm in some way. biggrin.gif

Very interesting information. I like/dread what I am seeing. There are definite aspects that are very appealing (virtual overlay) and others that are going to be worrisome to deal with (overabundance of processors and connections via wifi). It will be interesting, and I will reserve final judgment until I get the final product.
mmu1
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
No, because AR is within the realm of reality. "Nanomancers," as the preceding thread has shown, aren't.

Thank you for missing the point...
Halabis
Am I the only one that noticed that Technomancers manipul;ate the matrix with ONLY the power of their brains? No cyberware? How does being able to perform computations like a computer with your brain evolve into the ability to remotely control machines with your brain?!?

Doom I say!!! DOOOOOOM!!!!
Edward
The techno manners could still be ok, provided they are actually no more magical than otaku where, then, like the otaku, they will merely be an annoyance.

My difficulty is the idea of a pervasive augmented reality. There are several problems with it.

One: the cost, in the world of SR there are supposed to be a lot of poor. Anybody that can get an interface unit for the WMI within 5 years and doesn’t sell it is not living a street or squatter lifestyle, many with a low lifestyle will also not be able to afford it (those that do purchased them “used” from a squatter that “found” it. There will also be purists that will shun the technology so rules for people that refuse to have such devises will be needed

Two: it doesn’t (in itself) mach the purpose of the matrix, the matrix is a mass telecommunications system, it would cost a lot of nuyen to make something (say a wall menu) an ARO especially considering not everybody will be able to see it. At eth same time doing so dose not allow your customers to access the menu from outside your store. Regardless of what it gains the matrix MUST retain its primary function, that being to share and access data over long distances.

Edward
hobgoblin
the thing is, this text dont say shit about how the tecnomancers work. most likely its similar to todays otakus in that they can use a simple translator and their brain talks "comlink". basicly a lot of fluff but no meat at this point.

this seems similar to blue planet, but i guess that augmented reality and comlinks are being more and more the norm in near future sci-fi. just take a look at the cellphone of today and add a highcapacity bluetooth-like short range link (2-3 meters or so) to the mix. the only problem i have is with the contacts, how are they powerd? but thats kinda the same question i have about cyberlimbs nyahnyah.gif

as long as the world we all know and love survives all this intact i have a feel that sr4 is going to be a good thing nyahnyah.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mmu1 @ May 4 2005, 12:13 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 4 2005, 02:07 PM)
No, because AR is within the realm of reality. "Nanomancers," as the preceding thread has shown, aren't.

Thank you for missing the point...

I got your point. That was the only part of your post worth responding to.

QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the only problem i have is with the contacts, how are they powerd? but thats kinda the same question i have about cyberlimbs nyahnyah.gif

I was thinking the same thing, although the fact that they have any interface in them at all is also quite intriguing. I'd sooner than not call bullshit if I hadn't read this and this.
Solstice
that newsletter is not very encouraging but thanks for posting.
Phantom Runner
QUOTE

Is it just me, or does this stuff not seem even remotely plausible given only a 5-year jump in timeline?

We're going from a world in which display and image links were different pieces of cyeber to pervasive augmented reality in 5 years? (less really, considering the amount of time that'll inevitably be wasted running in circles screaming when the Matrix goes down and everything goes tits-up?)

Technology like evolution does not proceed in clearly deliniated paths, rather it can grow by incredible leaps. And how can you define "remotely plausible" for a fictional game based in the future? Hell, functioning cyberlimbs, cybereyes, datajacks, etc could be considered not even "remotely plausible".



Penta
Why is it that all the details are being released in German but English-speakers don't get the same love?:-/
mmu1
QUOTE (Halabis @ May 4 2005, 02:22 PM)
Am I the only one that noticed that Technomancers manipul;ate the matrix with ONLY the power of their brains?  No cyberware?  How does being able to perform computations like a computer with your brain evolve into the ability to remotely control machines with your brain?!?

Doom I say!!! DOOOOOOM!!!!

Ok, care to tell me a single thing a human brain has in common with a computer in terms of their methods of processing information, aside from the fact that they both do it?

It's like saying a horse-drawn carriage and a jet powered car are alike because they both move on wheels.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Penta)
Why is it that all the details are being released in German but English-speakers don't get the same love?:-/

Well, you got that Loose Alliances preview PDF, didn't you?
mmu1
QUOTE (Phantom Runner @ May 4 2005, 02:47 PM)
QUOTE

Is it just me, or does this stuff not seem even remotely plausible given only a 5-year jump in timeline?

We're going from a world in which display and image links were different pieces of cyeber to pervasive augmented reality in 5 years? (less really, considering the amount of time that'll inevitably be wasted running in circles screaming when the Matrix goes down and everything goes tits-up?)

Technology like evolution does not proceed in clearly deliniated paths, rather it can grow by incredible leaps. And how can you define "remotely plausible" for a fictional game based in the future? Hell, functioning cyberlimbs, cybereyes, datajacks, etc could be considered not even "remotely plausible".

I simply mean, "plausible given what we know about how the SR world works".

Clearly, a place incorporating magic and dragons isn't plausible in any sort of real-world sense, but you'd presumably have no problems if I complained about the plausibility of someone killing a great dragon with a sniper rifle, would you? (and "plausible" is so much easier to type than "it has verisimilitude".smile.gif)
Phantom Runner
QUOTE

My difficulty is the idea of a pervasive augmented reality. There are several problems with it.

One: the cost, in the world of SR there are supposed to be a lot of poor. Anybody that can get an interface unit for the WMI within 5 years and doesn’t sell it is not living a street or squatter lifestyle, many with a low lifestyle will also not be able to afford it (those that do purchased them “used” from a squatter that “found” it. There will also be purists that will shun the technology so rules for people that refuse to have such devises will be needed

I really don't see any difficulties here with reguard to the poor. I envision not having a commlink as pretty similar to not having a SIN in the current SR world of the 2060s. IE, the corporate world saying: "You don't got one, we dont' want to deal with you."

But as far as the cost of getting one...well there are already all kinds of price disparities in SR3 with necessary cyberware for sammies costing enough to feed families for years (so why even buy it). And Pocket Secretaries costing several 1000¥, yet everyone is supposed to have one...and other oddities.

As far as the purists go, I could really see that happening. No fraggin' way would I want some piece of tech constantly broadcasting my information to anyone savvy enough to hack into it...let alone having a commlink installed internally (just so it can't be stolen). And then I would suppose those purists would run into the same problem as the poor when attempting to conduct day to day business. With the purist I could see a social attitude arrising against them much like it does today against people who choose not to have a TV or choose not to watch the latest and greatest shows. "What you do watch Survivor! What's wrong with you?"

QUOTE

Two: it doesn’t (in itself) mach the purpose of the matrix, the matrix is a mass telecommunications system, it would cost a lot of nuyen to make something (say a wall menu) an ARO especially considering not everybody will be able to see it.

Of course by 2070, the definition of "the Matrix" has apparently changed. But not by much. It is still used to gather and share information, its just that information takes on a much broader meaning. And as far as expense, that is relative; fifteen years ago it was expensive to have a website designed, now nearly anyone can do it, thus cost drops. Much like IC and system design in SR3, the good, unique, or interesting ones will cost a pretty ¥, but there are boring standards that anyone has access to for extremely low rates...I would imagine the same for most AROs.

QUOTE

At eth same time doing so dose not allow your customers to access the menu from outside your store.

Why not? Everything is wireless. The menu is broadcasted blocks away. This allows you to brouse the menu while you are en-route, call in the order on your commlink before you get there, and then by the time you arrive and are seated your food is ready. Although the purist would have a hard time as he sits down and politely asks the nearest server, "Excuse me, can I get a menu..." to which he is greated with confused stares...

QUOTE

Regardless of what it gains the matrix MUST retain its primary function, that being to share and access data over long distances.

And what about adding ARO takes away the "primary fuction" of the Matrix. It still does that, and on an even broader scale...
Phantom Runner
QUOTE

I simply mean, "plausible given what we know about how the SR world works".

Ah, ok...a bit of misunderstanding your words smile.gif

But of course what we know about how the SR world works could be radically changed. Either naturally so due to the most recent crash and an extreme glut of new tech to deal with the fallout (necessity is the mother of invention after all), or because the designers waved a magic wand and said "Abra-capocus"....I'd prefer the former...but would be upset by the latter.

QUOTE

Clearly, a place incorporating magic and dragons isn't plausible in any sort of real-world sense, but you'd presumably have no problems if I complained about the plausibility of someone killing a great dragon with a sniper rifle, would you? (and "plausible" is so much easier to type than "it has verisimilitude".smile.gif)

Well gosh...I guess I would want to know was the bullet made of Oricalcum and fired from and enchanted oricalcum rifle...and did the shooter have high levels of physical adept abilities to raise his Rifle skill? cool.gif
Phantom Runner
PS: Why is it I get a very Ghost in the Shell feeling while reading the newsletter and the phrase "Hacked his cyberbrain..." keeps echoing in my head...??
Tanka
Odd. Technomancer screams to me of d20 Modern. Maybe because it's a class in it. Meh.

But, seriously, they're changing definitions. I can see why.

In the 80s, a hacker was a very heavily used word that meant somebody who broke into secure systems illegally to commit (oftentimes) criminal acts.

Now, a hacker is the same, though most people don't have the fear of a "hacker" that they did in the 80s. Now a hacker is just another "punk kid" that got his hands on some neato toys and poked at a few open ports.

Then there's the switch from otaku to technomancer. Nowadays, an otaku is generally seen as some fat kid still living in his parents' basement watching subbed anime and eating nothing but pizza and chips, occasionally going outside to get to his friend's house to play D&D.

When you say "decker" referring to one who uses a portable computer (laptop, anyone?) to compromise secure systems, people get confused. Now you say hacker and everybody gets it.

When you say "otaku" referring to one who uses their mind to compromise secure systems, they think you're batshit crazy since everybody knows fat anime/dnd geeks don't do anything illegal. Now when you say technomancer, people ask what you mean and then they get it.

I can see how the new terms will draw in new players, but that doesn't mean I won't miss them and occasionally find myself backtracking after using old terminology to explain something to somebody who has only played 4th edition.
hobgoblin
hmm, should i correct tanka about the meaning of hacker or not? nah, i dont feel like being that much of a pain...
Tanka
I know what a hacker really is, but most people don't know it. Most people think a hacker is some kid who breaks into secure systems and commits crimes.

I know a hacker is somebody that (more or less) codes. I consider myself a hacker in the fact that I code in a few languages and know a fair amount of "computer stuff."

Do I tell this to people on the fly? No, I say that I'm a computer geek. Why? You say you're a hacker and people get all antsy and freaked out and probably consider calling the police.
mfb
QUOTE
Am I the only one that noticed that Technomancers manipul;ate the matrix with ONLY the power of their brains? No cyberware? How does being able to perform computations like a computer with your brain evolve into the ability to remotely control machines with your brain?!?


if true, that would possibly be the stupidest thing i've ever heard in relation to SR4.
Wireknight
QUOTE (mfb)
if true, that would possibly be the stupidest thing i've ever heard in relation to SR4.

Silence, you. When the day of the technomancer-magician-adepts (who aren't Leonardo, his telepathically linked uberdeck sounds suspiciously like the technomancer bare-brain hacking) comes, you will be the first against the wall !!
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 4 2005, 02:07 PM)
No, because AR is within the realm of reality. "Nanomancers," as the preceding thread has shown, aren't.

Thank you for missing the point...

Let me make it more clear, also.

You made two fatal errors: One was a fallacy of assumption, and the second was the false analogy.

You assume that the wording infers that there is no interface between Technomancers and the wireless Matrix because it says that they can interface with it through the power of their minds. That is pretty much the same description of Otaku as-is, but there is still an interface required for them to access the Matrix.

Secondly, the Nanomancer concept you suggested is a false analogy because it builds on this apparent assumption to suggest that it should be possible for them or some other persons unknown to communicate with nanites without the use of any interface device, which goes back to that first error.

BTW, I love how this comes much closer to proving my three speculations correct. Now I just need to find confirmation on the other one.

QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
The old Matrix with its datajacks, cyberdecks and kilometers of optical cables exists no longer.

I find this rather disturbing insofar as the datajack has proven to be the most efficient method of interaction between the user and outside information. Sure, there will be commlink cyberware, but call me cynical but it's probably not going to be 0.20 essence for that. I don't doubt that 'jacks will still be around, but... it's so inefficient to appeal to people who don't have them to the same degree as the umpteen bajillion people with them in 3e or people who get cybercommlinks. Ewww. Just... Ewww. Unless they have wireless datajacks, which I see no reason for there not to be. That'd be an upgrade a long time coming.

I mean, some other people here can attest to my optimal cybernetic communications suite, and the last thing that would go into a PC's brain pan would be the actual emitting device. I don't like the idea of an internal cybercommlink, but a DNI connection is a given for any hacker worth a piss.

I also think it's a bit premature to talk about the demise of a system which by the mid-60s should have been able to provide power and voice/data connections through one cord (kind of like how it's possible right now). The damn battery cartel will have a field day, but to suggest those wires are just gone is just... stupid. How else are you going to recharge your commlink?

QUOTE (Phantom Runner)
QUOTE

At eth same time doing so dose not allow your customers to access the menu from outside your store.

Why not? Everything is wireless. The menu is broadcasted blocks away.

Blocks? It's put on the Matrix for anyone to Google, like now. The ARO is more convenient when coupled with GPS to provide a (literally) pointing arrow to a restaurant you've never been to before.

I like that SR finally caught up to modern-day. I think it could be handled without a Crash or whatever System Failure is going to be. I had no problem introducing the commlink in my gaming and stories as a digital hub (Which as a term has only been around since at least when the iMac came out) with varying degrees of augmented reality saturation around. You don't need to kill the Matrix. They should have just killed the idea that rigging and decking aren't close enough to be synergized with almost no trouble back in Rigger 2.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Halabis @ May 4 2005, 02:22 PM)
Am I the only one that noticed that Technomancers manipul;ate the matrix with ONLY the power of their brains?  No cyberware?  How does being able to perform computations like a computer with your brain evolve into the ability to remotely control machines with your brain?!?
Eh, I doubt it. I'd say that they're basically the equivalent to Otaku vs. Keckers in "today's" Matrix: one is dependent on *more* machines than the other is. Otaku still need a datajack and an ASIST converter; I imagine that Technomancers still require some sort of wireles link device.


As for the cost of a commlink, how many of you out there bought your cell phone? Now, how many of you, instead of actually buying the thing outright, got it "with new two year contract" basically for free, buying the phone on essentially a lease-to-own plan? That's where I see SR4 Commlinks going, for the most part: the vast majority of people that buy their Commlink did it by signing their life away to a provider for X number of years (5 would probably do it). Only the richest technophiles and those most concerned with getting a pay-as-you-go plan with no strings attached (read: Shadowrunners) would actually go around buying new Commlinks without the plan attached.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
The old Matrix with its datajacks, cyberdecks and kilometers of optical cables exists no longer.

I find this rather disturbing insofar as the datajack has proven to be the most efficient method of interaction between the user and outside information. Sure, there will be commlink cyberware, but call me cynical but it's probably not going to be 0.20 essence for that. I don't doubt that 'jacks will still be around, but... it's so inefficient to appeal to people who don't have them to the same degree as the umpteen bajillion people with them in 3e or people who get cybercommlinks. Ewww. Just... Ewww. Unless they have wireless datajacks, which I see no reason for there not to be. That'd be an upgrade a long time coming.

I mean, some other people here can attest to my optimal cybernetic communications suite, and the last thing that would go into a PC's brain pan would be the actual emitting device. I don't like the idea of an internal cybercommlink, but a DNI connection is a given for any hacker worth a piss.

I also think it's a bit premature to talk about the demise of a system which by the mid-60s should have been able to provide power and voice/data connections through one cord (kind of like how it's possible right now). The damn battery cartel will have a field day, but to suggest those wires are just gone is just... stupid. How else are you going to recharge your commlink?

Looking past the hype, I'm dead certain they're not getting rid of datajacks entirely. You just don't need to physically tether yourself to the cyberdeck, and from the cyberdeck into the wall, to get your ARO to work. I can imagine in fact that most people will be doing what I currently do with my character: plug a DNI pocket secretary (Commlink) into their datajack and use that + image link to access ARO.

The (until now) enormous Essence cost of any sort of implanted wireless transmitter will no doubt carry over to the 2070s, so I doubt we'll see the majority of people with a comm device actually implanted in their heads. This is particularly true as the technology for these Commlinks will be undoubtably be updating every few years or so--rather like cell phones nowadays--and the average person doesn't want to commit to going under the knife every couple of years. All you actually need to actually implant at the minimum is the mind-machine interface, and that means the datajack.

Further datajacks will still be necessary for *real* Matrix interaction, with the RAS override and such, which isn't just going to go away. We hope, anyway; ARO is a great metaphor for interacting with things in close proximity, but it sucks if you're talking about stuff whose physical location is far away or doesn't exist.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ May 4 2005, 03:48 PM)
Only the richest technophiles and those most concerned with getting a pay-as-you-go plan with no strings attached (read: Shadowrunners) would actually go around buying new Commlinks without the plan attached.

I don't know. I look at the number of people I know or know of who bought the RAZR because it was cool, or the fact that just about every lawyer in the country has a Blackberry or something like it, or the jagoffs with the Sidekick II, or the people who used Gizmodo and Engadget like a catalog, and I think you might want to tone down the exagerration about "Only the richest technophiles" would have them.

People buy all sorts of crazy shit that they can't afford, usually on credit. The entire U.S. economy is predicated on that fact.

Oh, and I agree with everything you wrote in your second post.
BitBasher
This thread has done nothing to allay my fears that the book coming out soon will not be SR except in name only.
Ellery
The problem with augmented reality is that it's not economically feasible to augment reality outside of heavily developed areas. I don't think you're going to go walking in the NAN wilderness and get a nifty little HUD display saying "Swainson's Thrush (Catharus ustulatus)" with an arrow pointing to a little bird sitting in the tree, which is itself annotated with "Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii)". So the degree of augmentation is necessarily rather limited.

Fortunately for "hackers" and "technomancers", most shadowruns take place around advanced technology, which will give them something to do. But the setting needs to acknowledge the limits of AR: it would be really hard to swallow that every species of beetle in Amazonia and every ancient, battered trid set in Africa has been labeled with metadata or outfitted with wireless matrix interface technology.
Shadow
I don't see a shadowrunner wanting to walk around connected to the WWW all the time by his WiFi devices. It screams "follow my every move, track me where ever I go".

I would sacrifice the minor and completly mundane advantages of being connected to the world wide WiFi for the ability to not be tracked and hunted down by my shoes.

From this point on all my characters are going to have a hobby of collecting old firearms to avoid the micro "tracking" computers in the modern ones.

Or in other words, more lameness from SR4.

*Waves bye to Shadowrun*

*Waves hello to SR4/WoD/D20 modern game*
Tanka
You mean d20 Modern + Urban Arcana, I assume?

NEW RACES FOR SR! BUGBEARS, AASIMAR AND TIEFLING, OH MY!
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Ellery @ May 4 2005, 06:32 PM)
The problem with augmented reality is that it's not economically feasible to augment reality outside of heavily developed areas.  I don't think you're going to go walking in the NAN wilderness and get a nifty little HUD display saying "Swainson's Thrush (Catharus ustulatus)" with an arrow pointing to a little bird sitting in the tree, which is itself annotated with "Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii)".  So the degree of augmentation is necessarily rather limited.

Fortunately for "hackers" and "technomancers", most shadowruns take place around advanced technology, which will give them something to do.  But the setting needs to acknowledge the limits of AR: it would be really hard to swallow that every species of beetle in Amazonia and every ancient, battered trid set in Africa has been labeled with metadata or outfitted with wireless matrix interface technology.

Well naturally. By the way, did you know that currently you don't get cell phone coverage on over half--indeed the majority, in fact--of the land area of the United States? How many people buy cell phones and still find them useful every day? Hype about, "ARO is everywhere!" of course implies "ARO is everywhere [important]!" I can gaurontee you there won't be any reliable ARO hubs in the Barrens, just like there's no reliable Gridguide in the Barrens.

As for the "Everything has Wifi access" statement above, I'm almost certain that's going to be hyperbole, as it's not even close to necessary and indeed can be an incredibly bad move to have Wifi access on say a handgun or clothing. In the same way my "Only the richest technophiles" statement is hyperbole; all I was saying is that the majority of people probably won't buy their commlinks outright, in the same way that the majority of people didn't buy their cell phones outright today.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (tanka @ May 4 2005, 10:49 PM)
I know what a hacker really is, but most people don't know it.  Most people think a hacker is some kid who breaks into secure systems and commits crimes.

I know a hacker is somebody that (more or less) codes.  I consider myself a hacker in the fact that I code in a few languages and know a fair amount of "computer stuff."

Do I tell this to people on the fly?  No, I say that I'm a computer geek.  Why?  You say you're a hacker and people get all antsy and freaked out and probably consider calling the police.


sorry, im just in a bad mood whenever i read hacker lately in any similar context.

the post should not have been made...

Tanka
It happens, I usually correct people when they use hacker incorrectly as well.

I was merely putting it in a "public light" manner, reading it as Joe Average would read it.
hobgoblin
and about ARO (o? must have missed something, i cant figure out what that o is for) and using it to send out stuff like menus. think of it like the people that stand out on the street handing out small menus or similar to people that pass by.

sure you can put the menu out on the net and hook it to a gps location so that people can ask "where is a place to eat that serve x food and is close by?". but you may allso walk by it at some other time, get a small beep and a indication that the comlink have downloaded something, basicly the menu in electronic form. maybe you can leave a order while your doing other stuff and then get a message when its ready to serve or be picked up.

there have been plans to outfit movie posters and similar with bluetooth devices that constantly send out a data signal to any passing device able to pick up bluetooth push traffic. only problem is that the signup time for bluetooth at the moment is to long for this to work effectivly.
Eyeless Blond
ARO = Augmented Reality Objects (though I like to think of it as "Augmented Reality Overlay", but it's the same thing)
Raskolnikov
Why have the comlink beep when you walk by? Why not just have rendered examples of the food cooked inside, complete with smell if anyone is running hot enough to pick it up. Basically ARO allows you to create displays and signs that would be impossible otherwise. Sure if you want to actually query for the full menu you can, but advertising that attempts to push full information doesn't work. It is impression, stimulation, and direction that sells things.
mfb
QUOTE (Shadow)
I don't see a shadowrunner wanting to walk around connected to the WWW all the time by his WiFi devices. It screams "follow my every move, track me where ever I go".

I would sacrifice the minor and completly mundane advantages of being connected to the world wide WiFi for the ability to not be tracked and hunted down by my shoes.

From this point on all my characters are going to have a hobby of collecting old firearms to avoid the micro "tracking" computers in the modern ones.

Or in other words, more lameness from SR4.

yes, because corporations and governments have the processing power, time, and inclination to track down every minor threat that pops up--and runners will, of course, have no resources available to them to bypass or negate such telltales. and, as well, SSG doesn't detail technologies that can already do pretty much everything you're talking about, albeit at a less fine level of detail.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Raskolnikov)
Why have the comlink beep when you walk by? Why not just have rendered examples of the food cooked inside, complete with smell if anyone is running hot enough to pick it up. Basically ARO allows you to create displays and signs that would be impossible otherwise. Sure if you want to actually query for the full menu you can, but advertising that attempts to push full information doesn't work. It is impression, stimulation, and direction that sells things.

it was the fastest example that i could think of nyahnyah.gif

till, having a simsense feed that plays a smell for those thats wired for that would be nice, maybe as a replacement for the beep for those that are wired. rember that you can wear contacts that overlay visual info rather then being wired for full sim so therefor you need to have multiple layers of getting the message thru.

think of it this way, it draws your attention to something and you can deal with it at your own time (alltho knowing how most people react to text messages on their cell its a accident waiting to happen). thats the whole point. and with a menu (complete with real life images of the dishes they serve and so on. alltho its a message dont mean it have to be all text, we are talking sci-fi after all) transferd you can examine prices and so on when you feel like it (even if your in a area with matrix access as the menu is allready in your comlinks memory).

think about the image of some runners on a job with some downtime:

r1: hmm, anyone feel like getting some food after the jobs done?

r2: sure, got any ideas?

r1: well i got a menu on my comlink from a place we passed on the way here. food looks good and prices are ok. hey, they have a all-you-can-eat option that even allow trolls and orc!

r3: sounds great, i need a proper meal.
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