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FrostyNSO
Long story short: Characters A and B have just had attepts made upon their lives. Hiding out in a safehouse in Puyallup, they are out of contact with character C, whom they have been unsuccessfully trying to call but are expecting to arrive eventually.

Character C has been having to avoid news choppers, spotter drones, etc... and so doesn't make it to Puyallup until very late. He knocks on the door and announces himself. Characters A and B are very wary at this point (those who tried to kill them have been big on deception), so ready their weapons, just in case.

This is where things get messy.

Character B opens the door (which opens inwards) and Character C decides to do a forward commando roll into the house. Startled, Character A puts a 7 round burst from his AK into Character C. Character B puts a predator round into Character C as well. After all is said and done, Characters A and B realize they just offed their buddy and due to over-damage he ain't comin' back.

Who's to blame for this fiasco?
nick012000
They were all rightfully paranoid, and he should have known better than to make an agressive move like a commando roll into the house.

Time for player C to generate a new character, I think.
Ancient History
Dumbass. rotfl.gif
Trax
It was stupid of him to think that doing a roll into someone's hideout would not result in him getting shot. Even if A&B knew that it was him, because he did that I would've thought that C was working with the badguys, therefore shoot him.
DocMortand
Huh. Normally I would say C in a heartbeat. But in all rights A&B are to blame - they didn't "HAVE" to pull the trigger. Granted, it was probably wise and prudent...but it was always an option.

*shrug*
Catsnightmare
C earned what he got at full value.
toturi
Ahem... the consequences of not "Observe"-ing. A and B are at fault. C is justified in doing a roll, he has been chased for a couple of hours, he doesn't know if the safehouse has been compormised.
Herald of Verjigorm
The safehouse sounds inherently insecure if the only way to ID the guy at the door is by opening it enough for him to roll inside. Everyone's an idiot unless someone was arguing for such measures, that hypothetical individual wasn't at fault.
Smiley
The commando roll wasn't the best idea, but if character C announced himself, A and B could've delayed some actions and scoped things out. If they didn't trust C, they shouldn't have let him inside. They trusted him enough to open the door, y'know, it seems like opening fire on him like that was overly hasty.
Veracusse
I chose everybody, but character C definitley takes most of the cake on this one. A&B could have tried harder to identify the individual as their buddy before just opening fire on him. However, given the situation their actions are somewhat understandable. I would probbably give them manslaughter then acquitt them of all charges. But hey they are shadowrunners so they probbably are already in deep doo-doo for something else. wink.gif

Veracusse
DocMortand
QUOTE (toturi)
Ahem... the consequences of not "Observe"-ing. A and B are at fault. C is justified in doing a roll, he has been chased for a couple of hours, he doesn't know if the safehouse has been compormised.

Holy crap, toturi is on my side...I must be doing something freaky. rotfl.gif
RedmondLarry
If my character had been forced to bring an enemy to the house he might do exactly what C did. The combat move would let AB know there was a problem and start shooting out, the roll gets him below the fire, the roll makes it less likely that he'll get hit by the enemy, and the roll takes him into the room where he can grab a weapon and help defend the fort.
Arethusa
I'm with Mortand. Everyone here is going to hell (for being so fucking stupid). But C'll be heading there a bit sooner.

Commando roll? Seriously, what the fuck? What the fucking fuck?
Kagetenshi
Everyone involved. I hope they helped Darwinism along by putting bullets into each other next.

But I'm going to disagree with Arethusa here. A and B clearly are heading there first for, as mentioned previously, having no way to determine friend/foe status beyond opening the door. Shit, C could have come in with an MMG firing blanks and it still wouldn't have been as stupid as A and B.

~J
DocMortand
Hell, C identified himself - that's why they opened the door. It's a game mechanic...you open the door and declared ready actions (which they did). Then you WAIT and not react to the first thing to come thru the door, which 6 times out of 10 will be the guy who just announced himself.

A&B have got no one to blame but themselves. C was stupid, but it shouldn't have been terminal.
FrostyNSO
Perhaps safehouse is the wrong word for this place. More like dumpy place Character A decided to hold onto just in case he got caught out in Puyallup and was too drunk to get home...or how it was described to me.

I give blame to A and B for not identifying their target (c'mon one of the biggest rules of shooting!). But C has worked with A and B long enough to know niether ever make much effort to identify their targets, and so got what he deserved IMHO.
Charon
Incidently, C has also demonstrated that there is little value in doing a commando roll as an entry maneuver. What does it accomplish beside moving you from cover to open ground without being able to shoot or even see your environment while you are rolling?

biggrin.gif

---

Voted that everyone was to blame. What a mess.
Smiley
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
But C has worked with A and B long enough to know niether ever make much effort to identify their targets...

He identified himself. How surprised could they have been that the person who was standing outside the door talking to them was the first one in when they opened it?
DocMortand
QUOTE (Smiley)
He identified himself. How surprised could they have been that the person who was standing outside the door talking to them was the first one in when they opened it?

Eh, the initial posit was that apparently their enemies had used deception against them before. That's why I gave them a 40% leeway wink.gif
Smiley
I hope they at least apologized.
Johnnycache
They were all at fault for not having a team protocal for greeting/entering a safehouse. A simple special knock with a slight variation for "guy with a gun to my head" is something that highly elite professional criminal/mercs should think of.
FrostyNSO
Blah, edit to quell my sleep-deprived lunacy: I'm pretty sure there was cyberware that could change your voice, damn sure in fact. Am I just really tired?

QUOTE (Smiley)
I hope they at least apologized.


A nice eulogy and a backyard burial in the barrens.

God I love GMing for the players I have.
Crusher Bob
There's a piece of ware called the voice modulator that lets you sound like other things/people (or just shout really loud). If you combine with the a high quality recording of someone, you can imitate their voice, iirc this originally appeared in the SSC.
mfb
this is C all the way. ducking in and cutting away from the doorway, fine.
pushing your way in while saying "get out of my way, fuckhead!" so they hear your voice, fine. sudden assault move into a room that contains nervous men with guns? under those circumstances, no fault on A&B.
Grinder
Mr. C is the one to blame. a forward commando roll into the house. ? biggrin.gif
Tziluthi
This is definitely CLUE files stuff. C gets the coveted glass house trophy for being an ass. smile.gif
Gambitt
They are all to blame for being stupid enough not have some protocal, where they can communicate that first, the people inside are not compromised, and that the person outside is alone, or not just some freak with a voice modulator.
Commando rolling into the room....... eek.gif wobble.gif
A and B were just dumb.
C was just plain suicidal.
Cray74
QUOTE (Veracusse)
I chose everybody, but character C definitley takes most of the cake on this one. A&B could have tried harder to identify the individual as their buddy before just opening fire on him. However, given the situation their actions are somewhat understandable.

I'll second all that.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
(c'mon one of the biggest rules of shooting!).

I do want to point out that in Shadowrunning, most rules of shooting should go out the window. For instance, another big rule of shooting (one of the biggest) is not pointing your gun at anything you aren't intending to shoot. A Shadowrunner should by no means do that—they should get their gun aimed dead on-target before they take time to worry about whether or not they want to shoot.

~J
Lindt
While I voted C, they are all dumbasses who deserve to have their safe house comprimised thanks to the random gunfire...
Smiley
What was C's rationale for doing the commando roll?
Kagetenshi
All the cool kids are doing it?

Probably to get out of the outside line of fire as quickly as possible. When you think about it there's no good rationale for doing it for either C or for a hypothetical attacker. The attacker should just open up with anything they've got immediately, rather than move into a space with no cover while giving people inside time to react. If anything, the commando roll should have been a tipoff that the person coming in is not a threat, whether because they don't actually intend harm or because they're so incompetent as to be not worth considering.

~J
Smiley
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
All the cool kids are doing it?

Only once, it seems.
Grinder
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
All the cool kids are doing it?

Oh, the characters are kids? That explains a lot. biggrin.gif
Thomas
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 23 2005, 08:47 PM)
All the cool kids are doing it?

Oh, the characters are kids? That explains a lot. biggrin.gif

Or the players? That too would explain a lot. grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
You know, the more I think about this the more I want to change my vote from "everyone" to "A and B".

~J
Arethusa
Commando roll? I don't care who's doing the shooting; that alone merits a good bullet soaking.
Smiley
QUOTE
You know, the more I think about this the more I want to change my vote from "everyone" to "A and B".


I agree.
Kagetenshi
Ok, well, that part I agree with.

~J
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Smiley @ May 23 2005, 02:25 PM)
What was C's rationale for doing the commando roll?

That's a damned good question and we never got an answer from player C.
Grinder
Maybe he joins this nice community? wink.gif
FrostyNSO
Been trying to get him to but his computer's been down.
Wounded Ronin
Characters A and B are unprofessional dumbasses. Fratricide against someone who wasn't even firing on them is a sure sign of unprofessionalism.
FrostyNSO
Oh hell, don't ressurrect this dead horse.

It wasn't lack of professionalism that killed Character C, it was negligence on all sides' parts.

Negligence is just that, whether the characters act professional or not has nothing to do with this debate.

The US Army Rangers could by all means be considered professionals at what they do, but due to negligence, they have had friendly fire incidents.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Oh hell, don't ressurrect this dead horse.

It wasn't lack of professionalism that killed Character C, it was negligence on all sides' parts.

Negligence is just that, whether the characters act professional or not has nothing to do with this debate.

The US Army Rangers could by all means be considered professionals at what they do, but due to negligence, they have had friendly fire incidents.

Dude, I doubt that the Rangers would drill each other with 5.56 ammo because they saw a shoulder roll and only a shoulder roll.
FrostyNSO
Listen, I've seen guys get "drilled" for doing far less. This shit happens. Remember, when two friendlies fire on eachother, one still has to fire first. When you're expecting to see your friend on the other side of the door and instead see a maniac busting a ninja roll into your joint (kinda hard to see his face in this instance), you might just "drill" him. Especially if you've just had your residence taken out by a truck bomb that day and a family was gunned down in the house your partner used to live in just two weeks ago.
Mortax
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Dumbass. rotfl.gif

rotfl.gif We are agreed.

I would also say that they all are a bit stupid for not having a protocol established, IE knock this way to enter, knock this way for gun to my head. Also, INSTALL A FRAGGING PEEPHOLE!. wink.gif or something similar.

However, it could have been an illusion, or C could have been under a spell to compell him to fight his chummers. The agressive move was a bad plan.

I'd vote C, all did something dumb, but his action was the one that cause the bullets to fly. If he had just walked in, I'm guessing he would have been better off.
Shadow
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Characters A and B are unprofessional dumbasses. Fratricide against someone who wasn't even firing on them is a sure sign of unprofessionalism.

That is so sig worthy smile.gif

I picked C for the roll. I mean why do the roll. Why not say "hi" guys don't shoot. Did he think the safe house was compromised? If so did he shoot back? And why the hell didn't he have enough armor to soak that smile.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Dude, I doubt that the Rangers would drill each other with 5.56 ammo because they saw a shoulder roll and only a shoulder roll.


tell that to CPL Tillman.
Critias
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ May 23 2005, 07:34 PM)
Oh hell, don't ressurrect this dead horse.

It wasn't lack of professionalism that killed Character C, it was negligence on all sides' parts.

Negligence is just that, whether the characters act professional or not has nothing to do with this debate.

The US Army Rangers could by all means be considered professionals at what they do, but due to negligence, they have had friendly fire incidents.

Dude, I doubt that the Rangers would drill each other with 5.56 ammo because they saw a shoulder roll and only a shoulder roll.

Quite true. The Rangers -- and, to be fair, any other military group/army/organization, all of whom are undeniable professionals -- have had blue-on-blue casualties for much less than someone shoulder-rolling. Things like "walking" or "being seen walking" or "standing in the wrong place," for instance. No commando roll is required for friendly fire.

That said, I think it's a well known fact I highly respect the military (of many nations) and anyone who's a part in it. The simple fact is fvck ups happen, especially when using large groups of people of varying uniforms in a war-filled environment. The scenario shared with us concerning A, B, and C, was just people being stupid in a Shadowrun game. Apples and oranges.
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