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SR4WorldOrder
Everybody thinks everyone in TEXAS wears cowboy hats. Thats totally not true. you can walk down any street anywhere in Dallas and you will maybe see 1 person wearing a cowboy hat if your lucky. Im not sure about other other Texas cities. As far as Dallas being another Seattle, you are very much mistaken my friend. WE are nothing like nor would we want to be like Seattle. As for corporations in todays world Dallas and the surrounding areas probably has more Corporate HQs than Seattle. But as we all know Shadowrun is/was centered around Seattle so thats why it is the main hub for the games corporations.
hermit
QUOTE
We must not have been reading the same copy of Shadows of North America. Besides that, the West is a lot more than Texas.

Speaking of which, do you really get how far away the Aztlan border in Austin is to Dallas? (I'll give you a hint, it's 196mi/313.6km.) If Azzie fighters are flying over Dallas, then there is a big fucking problem.

Aztlan has stealth fighters, so they perfectly could just do that if they felt like provoking a full-fledged war, but that's beside the point. My point was that I felt you had a bit of a wrong idea of the cold war.

QUOTE
Other than that, calling Dallas "Seattle with cowboy hats" is just incredibly ignorant. They're on the same continent (and currently in the same country). That's about all they really have in common.

Yeah, Texas and Seattle are different. Like Munich and Berlin, London and Glasgow, or Rome and Venice are different. Sure, the setting's different politically, geographically and (to a point) historically, and there're minor cultural differences - but these are indeed minor if compared to the difference between Seattle and, say Calcutta or Beijing or Tokyo. Let alone 6th World monstrosities like Metropole.

QUOTE
Texas does indeed have all the Corps that Seattle has. If I was going to make a campaign in Texas, I would focus more on the political situation than doing runs for corps. Doing runs for corporations would be the Seattle standard, while what new information we have on Texas focuses on the border and policlubs( Sons of the Alamo mostly.) You can do those runs in Seattle, but it is more suited for Texas.(IMO)

Thing is, you can do that in the Seattle setting, too. Salish has been eying the city for years, There's the Tshimshian (sp) border war, the Tir, and an ever-growing UCAS presence (and the secessionist movement). Sure, there'snot the hostile border scenario Texas offers, but there still is plenty of smuggling going on, plenty of cross-border conflicts, and plenty of people with guns sitting there, pointing them at each other and itching for the other to make one wrong move.

QUOTE
Just curious, how do you personally feel about how Shadowrun treated your country. I don't really mean how canon is, but how the history occurred?

They have a lot to make up for, and I'm afraid the setting's fucked for good. Germany SB has been made canon and can never be erased. I do hope they go with (what I see) as the majority of voices on the German SR forums and make the coutnry a dictatorship of some kind in SR4. At least, that'd somewhat fit, unlike this anarchist paradise bullshit.

QUOTE
To get back on topic, I agree with all of your list of cities that I would like to see with the setting books. Heck, I would like to see Neo-Tokyo before my hometown. But it would still be cool to see San Antonio described just for my personal enjoyment.

Believe me, if your home town is done wrong, you'll wish it never had been done.

QUOTE
Everybody thinks everyone in TEXAS wears cowboy hats. Thats totally not true. you can walk down any street anywhere in Dallas and you will maybe see 1 person wearing a cowboy hat if your lucky.

Go send a letter of complaint to White House then. wink.gif

QUOTE
As far as Dallas being another Seattle, you are very much mistaken my friend. WE are nothing like nor would we want to be like Seattle.

Well, you may not like it, but you're offspring of the same country and overall culture. Maybe you should travel outside the US for once just to get to know what different really means. I recommend India.
SL James
QUOTE (hermit)
Go send a letter of complaint to White House then

Damn northeastern Connecticut elites.
Critias
Just curious, here, Hermit -- how much time have you spent in Dallas and/or Seattle? Or New York? LA? Oakland? San Francisco? Cincinnati? Chicago? Boston?
hermit
QUOTE
Just curious, here, Hermit -- how much time have you spent in Dallas and/or Seattle? Or New York? LA? Oakland? San Francisco? Cincinnati? Chicago? Boston?

Never been to the West Coast (sadly, it's high on my to-visit list), but ...

New York: a week (twice)
Chicago: two days
Miami: another week (once)
Honululu: 2 weeks

Rest of my US experience was basically being on the road (roughly 3 weeks, but not all at once).

And add three weeks of Bay City, MI, to that.
Critias
And in that time, despite seeing (and hopefully grasping, which many Europeans just plain can't) the size of this country, you're still convinced that every city in America is pretty much the same?

Amazing.
Grinder
It's not that important if one has ever been to Seattle and Dallas to catch hermits point. Both cities are based in north america and don't differ much from one another - they may have differences (oh, i'm sure they have), but the differences between recently uncovered cities like Kalkutta or Metropole and Dallas/ Seattle are much bigger. And that makes these setting more interesting.

And yeah, a new dictatorship for the AGS! biggrin.gif
hermit
QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 20 2005, 12:22 PM)
And in that time, despite seeing (and hopefully grasping, which many Europeans just plain can't) the size of this country, you're still convinced that every city in America is pretty much the same?

Amazing.

Oh please, Critas. I did acknowledge there're slight differences culturaly. But not much. And yes, I did notice the size of the country. If you drive halfways across it two times, it's pretty hard not to notice. I was actualy amazed at how damn similar everything was, no matter whether it was thousands of kilometers apart. Totally unlike Europe, where you have new languages, architecture, and cultures literally every 100 kilometers.

And that's something Americans routinely fail to grasp. That, unlike at their home country, 100 kilometers can mean a world's difference in other regions of the World (not only in Europe, mind you. Also in India, China, and even Africa). Ever been to India, Critas? To Europe? To anywhere off the North American continent? Noticed that things are slightly more different to any given American city there? Or just to Europe?

And I am not talking about troop deployments here. You don't get to see much of a country when holed in in an American military base where even American franchise chains are imported.
Critias
Yes, actually I have. I noticed differences between Dublin and London, for instance. I can acknowledge they might be smaller differences than between Chicago and Baghdad...but the differences are there.

I just don't understand how you can think Dallas is "Seattle with cowboy hats," even when people are trying to correct you. Especially since -- as you just said -- you've never been to either of them. Maybe you don't think there's a racial or language difference between anywhere in the Pacific Northwest and anyplace touching the Mexican border, but trust me, it's there. In much the same way, people commute, talk, dress, and act differently (and at different times of day) in Louisville, KY, than they do in New York city.

I'm sorry you can't see the differences, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Take it from someone who spent half his life on the West Coast, and the other half in the Midwest.
hermit
QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 20 2005, 01:02 PM)
Yes, actually I have.  I noticed differences between Dublin and London, for instance.  I can acknowledge they might be smaller differences than between Chicago and Baghdad...but the differences are there.

I just don't understand how you can think Dallas is "Seattle with cowboy hats," even when people are trying to correct you.  Especially since -- as you just said -- you've never been to either of them. Maybe you don't think there's a racial or language difference between anywhere in the Pacific Northwest and anyplace touching the Mexican border, but trust me, it's there. In much the same way, people commute, talk, dress, and act differently (and at different times of day) in Louisville, KY, than they do in New York city.

I'm sorry you can't see the differences, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Take it from someone who spent half his life on the West Coast, and the other half in the Midwest.

"Seattle with cowboy hats" referred to the fact that any differences between Seattle and Dallas would be small if compared to the differences between Seattle and Calcutta, Baghdad, Vladivostok or whatever other off-North-America city you like. They're both Anglo North American cities. Yeah, Texas has a slightly different tradition in respect to morality and related issues than the Northwest, though with the influx of midwest refugees in 2020, I find it hard to believe the NW's relative liberality would have lasted, but such is canon *shrug*. Thus, of course there are differences, but the scale of these is what I challenge.

You pick the strongest differences, of course, and I agree, a change from California to Texas would be about as drastic as it gets (and yes, I did notice a difference, a notable one, between NYC and Bay City, MI). However, it was also pretty apparent to me that these were differences inside one culture. You get the same kinds of differences between Berlin and Munich, or between Hamburg and Frankfurt-Oder (a East German city where communism is still pretty much alive).

But we seem to agree that the differences between Seattle and Calcutta (or, for that matter, Baghdad) are a lot greater than the differences between Seattle and Dallas. And since I'd like to have different settings, that was my main point to make - that I'd like something new for a change, not yet-another-Anglo-city.
Demonseed Elite
Beyond Seattle, I would be surprised if there was more than a single other North American sprawl among the signatures. From the Origins info, it just doesn't sound like there are going to be that many (though I doubt that's etched in stone) and they have a lot of ground to cover.

So, if there is another North American sprawl, it should be something substantially different in theme than Seattle, so it can host plot lines that Seattle shouldn't. I don't really see Dallas as different enough, at this point (though, as usual, the writers could totally shake things up, but they'd have to sell Rob on it). Which isn't to say that Dallas is "Seattle with cowboy hats", but that it does have similar runner themes, in my mind. Of course, I would say Vladivostok does also.
hermit
Vladivostok at least is built in a totally different political and social environment ('communazi regime' as compared to 'shareholder democracy'). But yeah, it was somewhat similar, I give you that.
JackDaddy
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Beyond Seattle, I would be surprised if there was more than a single other North American sprawl among the signatures.  From the Origins info, it just doesn't sound like there are going to be that many (though I doubt that's etched in stone) and they have a lot of ground to cover.

So, if there is another North American sprawl, it should be something substantially different in theme than Seattle, so it can host plot lines that Seattle shouldn't.  I don't really see Dallas as different enough, at this point (though, as usual, the writers could totally shake things up, but they'd have to sell Rob on it).  Which isn't to say that Dallas is "Seattle with cowboy hats", but that it does have similar runner themes, in my mind.  Of course, I would say Vladivostok does also.

To a certain extent, they have to be some-what similar. Places that are so deferent as to not be conducive to shadowrunning are not a viable setting.

personally, I think DC is a GREAT shadowrun location. Sure you've got no mega corp facilities, but their lobbists are there, as are the executive, legislative and judicial branches. Countless embassies... Political parties... The Johnsons become 'the Honorable Johnson.'

--Im Jack Daddy Foo!
Demonseed Elite
Yah, DeeCee is an example of a sprawl I'd consider different enough to handle different plotlines and add more themes to shadowrunning than just what Seattle can handle.
SL James
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Yah, DeeCee is an example of a sprawl I'd consider different enough to handle different plotlines and add more themes to shadowrunning than just what Seattle can handle.

Well, for those of us who rely on the sourcebooks for general material and an impression of what the shadow scene looks like, DeeCee blows.

Someone might want to fix that.

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 20 2005, 04:47 AM)
It's not that important if one has ever been to Seattle and Dallas to catch hermits point. Both cities are based in north america and don't differ much from one another - they may have differences (oh, i'm sure they have), but the differences between recently uncovered cities like Kalkutta or Metropole and Dallas/ Seattle are much bigger. And that makes these setting more interesting.

Just because a setting is different does not mean that it is in any way interesting, let alone "more interesting." The whole point of a place being interesting has nothing to do with where it is, and rather with how it's written. But to go by what you described, Europe is more interesting than North America, which is unprovable and which I personally find to be hard to swallow. I don't particularly find anything in Shadows of Europe to be much more interesting than in North America, but they're different. Big fucking deal.

Aside from that, this whole discussion is just stupid.
Ellery
There is more cultural and historical diversity in a given area in Europe than in North America. But the job of making a place interesting is mostly up to the author, not the place. Any city can be described by a terribly boring history book, as well as a fairly interesting tourist guide. Some cities have an edge in this regard (e.g. Rome has a bit of an edge over San Antonio, thanks mostly to Rome's 10x longer history and all the things that that entails), but it's not enough to outweigh author talent and interest.
hermit
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 20 2005, 08:06 PM)
Just because a setting is different does not mean that it is in any way interesting, let alone "more interesting." The whole point of a place being interesting has nothing to do with where it is, and rather with how it's written. But to go by what you described, Europe is more interesting than North America, which is unprovable and which I personally find to be hard to swallow. I don't particularly find anything in Shadows of Europe to be much more interesting than in North America, but they're different. Big fucking deal.

Aside from that, this whole discussion is just stupid.

Where the hell did you get the idea that Europe was supposed to be more interesting from? Just curious. Because noone ever said that.

QUOTE
There is more cultural and historical diversity in a given area in Europe than in North America. But the job of making a place interesting is mostly up to the author, not the place. Any city can be described by a terribly boring history book, as well as a fairly interesting tourist guide. Some cities have an edge in this regard (e.g. Rome has a bit of an edge over San Antonio, thanks mostly to Rome's 10x longer history and all the things that that entails), but it's not enough to outweigh author talent and interest.

True, but talent can do only so much. Lack of talent can make every setting suck, but you cannot spin a setting into everything. It's impossible to, for instance, make a truely ancient, magic-laden city out of anything on former US soil, because this region simply lacks the historical background for that (like you said). Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship, as is possible in Metropole. Because there simply is no such setting anywhere in the UCAS or CAS or NAN. Nomad-ish settings, borderlands, tension-laden war zones, urban jungles, high-class corp resorts, military-controlled, cordoned off areas of mystery, a freaked-out awakened wilderness, all that is in North America yes. But that is not all you can have in the world of Shadowrun.
Cynic project
QUOTE (hermit)
Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship, as is possible in Metropole. Because there simply is no such setting anywhere in the UCAS or CAS or NAN. Nomad-ish settings, borderlands, tension-laden war zones, urban jungles, high-class corp resorts, military-controlled, cordoned off areas of mystery, a freaked-out awakened wilderness, all that is in North America yes. But that is not all you can have in the world of Shadowrun.

L.A., L.A. Or if you count CFS and go to about 400 miles north you can get the San Franisco bay area...
Ancient History
QUOTE (hermit)
It's impossible to, for instance, make a truely ancient, magic-laden city out of anything on former US soil, because this region simply lacks the historical background for that (like you said).

Not quite true.
SL James
QUOTE (hermit)
It's impossible to, for instance, make a truely ancient, magic-laden city out of anything on former US soil, because this region simply lacks the historical background for that (like you said).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Are you kiddding? Do you even know what the hell you're talking about or just typing random crap for the hell of it?
hermit
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 20 2005, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 20 2005, 06:19 PM)
It's impossible to, for instance, make a truely ancient, magic-laden city out of anything on former US soil, because this region simply lacks the historical background for that (like you said).

Not quite true.

Oh? Which American city does have a millenia-old and possibly magical background? I am thinking of something along the lines of Benares or Mekkah or Jerusalem here, mind you, not Paris and it's pesky catacombs. I'm genuinely interested, because I am unaware of any urban civilisation before the US in North America.

QUOTE (Cynic Project @ Jul 20 2005, 06:19 PM)
L.A., L.A. Or if you count CFS and go to about 400 miles north you can get the San Franisco bay area...

eh ... CFS is a ecofascist dictatorship? Funny, never noticed that ...
Cynic project
QUOTE (hermit)
CFS is a ecofascist dictatorship? Funny, never noticed that ...

You never said that. You said

Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship. Saito and the PCC can be called that.

. Because there simply is no such setting anywhere in the UCAS or CAS or NAN. Nomad-ish settings Both LA and San Fran have these.

"borderlands" check.
"tension-laden war zones" in spades
"urban jungles" Hell yes.
"high-class corp resorts" Um those too.
"military-controlled" just a bit of this.
"cordoned off areas of mystery, a freaked-out awakened wilderness" Again in spades.
hermit
Okay, sorry, I said
QUOTE
Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship, as is possible in Metropole.


You quoted that, thought you were referring to this.

All the other points were things that were possible in the NA setting. My bad.
SL James
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 20 2005, 01:22 PM)
I'm genuinely interested, because I am unaware of any urban civilisation before the US in North America.

Shocking.

You seem to think you're so smart and clever, you can figure it out all by yourself, big boy.
Demonseed Elite
If one of the signature sprawls were to focus on magical groups, arcane plotlines, and ancient mysteries, chances are it wouldn't be a North American city. I wouldn't say it's impossible to do that, but I think other cities outside North American offer a lot more potential for that sort of thing.

Now, if instead you wanted a signature setting that focused on modern magic, horror, and environmental/magical/psychological despair, I'd look no further than Chicago. There's probably no other place on the globe that has had such a ruinous relationship with magic and astral space.
hermit
QUOTE
Now, if instead you wanted a signature setting that focused on modern magic, horror, and environmental/magical/psychological despair, I'd look no further than Chicago. There's probably no other place on the globe that has had such a ruinous relationship with magic and astral space.

True. And Chicago would also be sufficiently different from Seattle (and other NA cities) to not dublicate a setting. In fact, that'd be a very interesting setting to play in.
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James)
Just because a setting is different does not mean that it is in any way interesting, let alone "more interesting." The whole point of a place being interesting has nothing to do with where it is, and rather with how it's written. But to go by what you described, Europe is more interesting than North America, which is unprovable and which I personally find to be hard to swallow. I don't particularly find anything in Shadows of Europe to be much more interesting than in North America, but they're different. Big fucking deal.

side from that, this whole discussion is just stupid.

I never talked about european cities. I talked about former undescribed settings like Kaklutta or Metropole. None of these sprawls is in europe, i'm sure.
Metropole is interesting cause its probably the biggest sprawl in the SR-universe, having 200 millions inhabitants.
Kalkutta is in india - and hopefully noone here will deny that india is different from the usa or europe.
Cynic project
QUOTE (hermit)
Okay, sorry, I said
QUOTE
Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship, as is possible in Metropole.


You quoted that, thought you were referring to this.

All the other points were things that were possible in the NA setting. My bad.

You can do that in San Fran area,LA or Portland....
hermit
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 20 2005, 02:40 PM)
Okay, sorry, I said
QUOTE
Or a freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship, as is possible in Metropole.


You quoted that, thought you were referring to this.

All the other points were things that were possible in the NA setting. My bad.

You can do that in San Fran area,LA or Portland....

Are you referring to the gargantuan city living under a magocratic eco-fascist dictatorship, or the other points?
Cynic project
freaked-out, highly urbanized, giant refugee camp in a fascist dictatorship. Those points right there.

Those were the points I was refering to.

The elves are tree huggers and that dragon on the hill really like that green stuff too. So the eco-fascist part is covered in both cases up there. L.A. is lacking in that department.

What metropole has that no one else does is 200,000,000 people.
Cheops
Yeah, but isn't that just largely because they kicked everyone out of the countryside and then amalgamated all the towns between Rio and Sao Paolo into one single city?

Lump the Eastern Seaboard together from Atlanta all the way up to Toronto and Hartford and you'd have a pretty big city in a geographic area that isn't that much bigger. Hell, call all of Honshu one city and that'd probably be pretty close to Metropole.

I don't know if anyone is familiar with Ottawa, ON, Canada but it's really funny. It keeps trying to make itself bigger by continuously adding surrounding townships. I swear, my uncle and I drove for 45 minutes through nothing but forest and cabin country before we finally got out of the city limits. To me that doesn't mean that Ottawa really has 800,000 people it just means that the administration is willing to preside over a much larger land area than it really should.
Starglyte
[QUOTE=hermit]
Texas does indeed have all the Corps that Seattle has. If I was going to make a campaign in Texas, I would focus more on the political situation than doing runs for corps. Doing runs for corporations would be the Seattle standard, while what new information we have on Texas focuses on the border and policlubs( Sons of the Alamo mostly.) You can do those runs in Seattle, but it is more suited for Texas.(IMO)[/QUOTE]
Thing is, you can do that in the Seattle setting, too. Salish has been eying the city for years, There's the Tshimshian (sp) border war, the Tir, and an ever-growing UCAS presence (and the secessionist movement). Sure, there'snot the hostile border scenario Texas offers, but there still is plenty of smuggling going on, plenty of cross-border conflicts, and plenty of people with guns sitting there, pointing them at each other and itching for the other to make one wrong move.
[/QUOTE]
That is true if you don't play up the differences the setting does have. For example, the CAS does not have bad relations with NAN like the UCAS does. That effects the setting. The elves use Seattle as their chosen port of call. Aztlan does not use Texas for that. Aztlan is different from Tir. You can choose to have that, but if you treat the setting components as different creatures, then it becomes different.

I not disagreeing with you about the vast differences between cities in North America and the rest of world. It would be good for the game to cover these cities. But it also would be good for the game to have cities in North America to be covered becomes majority of the players of Shadowrun are located there( with the possible execption of Germany). It is easier to imagine the setting when it is set in your back yard. Because I am American, I can tell the differences between Seattle and Dallas. I've also been overseas in foreign countries as well.
fistandantilus4.0
What're you talking about!? Texas is a foreign country.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Starglyte)
For example, the CAS does not have bad relations with NAN like the UCAS does.

CAS and Pueblo Corporate Council relations seem to be about as antagonistic as the UCAS and Sioux are towards each other according to recent books. Not sure how they feel about the rest of the Sovereign Tribal Council though.
Starglyte
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (Starglyte)
For example, the CAS does not have bad relations with NAN like the UCAS does.

CAS and Pueblo Corporate Council relations seem to be about as antagonistic as the UCAS and Sioux are towards each other according to recent books. Not sure how they feel about the rest of the Sovereign Tribal Council though.

I stand corrected.

I thought they were allied against Aztlan?

Starglyte
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jul 21 2005, 01:34 AM)
What're you talking about!? Texas is a foreign country.

Texas is not a foreign country.

Everybody else is foreign. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
QUOTE (Starglyte)
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jul 21 2005, 02:06 PM)
QUOTE (Starglyte)
For example, the CAS does not have bad relations with NAN like the UCAS does.

CAS and Pueblo Corporate Council relations seem to be about as antagonistic as the UCAS and Sioux are towards each other according to recent books. Not sure how they feel about the rest of the Sovereign Tribal Council though.

I stand corrected.

I thought they were allied against Aztlan?

The US and USSR were allied against Hitler, too. Enemy of my enemy and all that. Didn't exactly make them friends, if I remember correctly.
Starglyte
Ah, now I understand.

I remeber reading about the WWII films that asked Americans to help out "Uncle Joe". I wonder how the Pueblos would do it. "Give some cred so the Colonel can clean house."
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Starglyte)
I thought they were allied against Aztlan?

I'll try and dig out a page reference some time, but I remember one of the last few books basically saying something along the lines of that practically the only thing the CAS and Aztlan agree on is their mutual loathing of the PCC.
Grinder
At least they have sth. in common. wink.gif
hermit
Awww. So mutual hatred doesn't count as having something in common after all ... damn, there go my chances of making up with my ex. nyahnyah.gif
Grinder
"Can we say we agree that we disagree?"
"No."
SL James
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (Starglyte @ Jul 22 2005, 02:07 AM)
I thought they were allied against Aztlan?

I'll try and dig out a page reference some time, but I remember one of the last few books basically saying something along the lines of that practically the only thing the CAS and Aztlan agree on is their mutual loathing of the PCC.

Really?

In Shadows of North America relations are described as "pretty chummy" due to their mutual hatred of Aztlan.
imperialus
Personally the cities I would like to see are:

Capetown/Johanasburg. I have spent less than a day in each of them, long enough to pick up and drop off the RV I went around the rest of South Africa in but it would be interesting to see how the racial tensions still very much present in SA would have adapted to the influx of metahumanity and the return of magic, not to mention how cool an encounter with a pride of awakened freaking lions would be. There are also the diamond mines, exotic animals (perhaps a horn from an awakened rhino really does have curative properties), and a plethora of other natural resources present in SA that would have corps and criminal organizations very interested.

Warsaw. Hell it's Poland, it's been caught up between two of the biggest European power players since the dawn of time.

NeoTokeo. Nod to old skool cyberpunk... Nuff said.

Calgary. What does a city in the heart of NAN territory look like?

Jerusalem. Everyone loves Jerusalem, only thing better than Jerusalem in the blood of people not like you running through the streets of Jerusalem. Subject matter might be a little heavy for right now though.

Cairo. More awakenable goodness than you can shake a stick at. It is still a major trade route for shipping from all around the world. I can only assume that wouldn’t change.
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