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I'd like to highlight a difference in what some people are referring to: a group walking away from a job and a single PC walking away. When one PC walks, I think it's legitimate for the GM to shrug and say, "okay--your prerogative. Now you can either play this NPC for tonight or you can sit back and watch while the rest of us play."

OTOH, if the entire group discusses the situation and decides to walk away, well... I'd hesitate to call the whole bunch of them "bad players." Speaking purely for myself, as a GM I've had Johnsons pitch runs at the PCs that they should have walked away from--just to keep them on their toes. smile.gif
Fygg Nuuton
I'm a player in that group, but couldnt make that session. had I been there, I would have walked out of the meeting, making an IC excuse to the johnson. also, the late dwarf would have had to sit outside, as I don't tolerate tardiness.

also, I only get paid in cash. I dont know art, so the johnson may say its worth X amount but how would i know hes telling the truth.
Talia Invierno
Haven't any of you guys ever done runs in order to be paid in specialty, high Availability (read: almost impossible to get otherwise) equipment?
Haven't yet, but would be very hesitant to do so. Perfect opportunity for J to pull something funny.

In addition to money, or at my request in lieu of money, yes. As primary payment, no.
Playing an NPC might've been fun...

But it was late and the DM had to go anyway.

Oh well, we'll see what next holds.

I'm not certain, but I think after I walked, the other players were a bit leery about taking the job, too. I'm not sure if they outright walked, or if they told J that they'd think about it...
And yeah, I agree. Being paid in speciality stuff is an option - my option. Specifically, my Rigger's option. My Rigger who has no use for art objects, has no ability to hawk them, and has no use for magic stuff, and has no ability to hawk them, either.

I would've wound up having to go to extra lengths just to get paid, and I probably would've been lucky to score 10K. Not enough to cover a drone, let alone the extra hassle of selling the stuff. The group mage might've wanted the stuff, and if so, that's her perogitive, but I'd like to be paid in cold, hard, certified credstick, thank you Mr. Johnson.
IC issues should be given serious consideration when taking a run, and not just blown off with "you're here to play, so you MUST!" It's a matter of risk vs reward. For example I once had to turn down a run offered to my sorcerer character, for several reasons. With this character's specific situation he absolutely couldn't take this run, it would have cost him personally more money than what was offered to the team as a whole, broken three strictures of his magical group and all the while he was still sitting at a serious wound, after having spent a week in the hospital (mostly unconcious) recovering from the deadly wound received (and barely survived) in the last run.

Seriously, given this situation, would your character bite the bullet and say "Yes I'll accept this run." ? Or would you do like I did and turn the run down, politely saying "I'm not looking for work right now, but if you insist on having my services it will cost you (mucho nuyen needed to cover his massive expenses)" and pull out a character sheet of someone who would take said job.
QUOTE (arcady)
QUOTE (Edge2054 @ Aug 2 2005, 10:09 AM)
It's the player's job to play his character.  If his character if of the attitude that that's not how to run biz then he's within his bounds to look for another job.

If you show up to a social gathering, you have an implied duty to get along. RPGs are a group affair, about an ensemble cast. No one character is the star of the movie. It's a team affair and you need to make a 'team player'.

I disagree with you here. It is a social situation, and there is that implied getting along thing. That goes for every player I play with. As far as characters go, we play a cyberpunk style of Shadow Run. Our characters are criminals who commit several felonies to put food on the table. Paranoia goes with that like bread goes with butter.

I make an effort to get along with all the players, if one of there characters decides to wax mine then so be it. I don't take it personally and I don't see it as the player being out to get me.

Otherwise I think I addressed everything two posts back from your last one, cutting some slack first run and giving other characters the benefit of the doubt. For the record though, set ups do happen, even on the first run, happened to us.
I think if you get a bad vibe, take your 1 Karma for surviving and RUN, beats 0 karma.

PC infighting is bad unless both are in full agreement. I do not like to wax other chars as I see it as unprofessional, and I would not like to get waxed since I invest alot of time into my characters.
Talia Invierno
Different groups play in different ways; and the way the GM sets up that first run and that first meeting invariably defines the subsequent tone of the game. In this case, the entire structure came across to me as "inexperienced" because the forms were being followed without apparent understanding of potential consequences. An experienced GM can to some extent anticipate how things might appear to others and adjust its initial presentation to the players accordingly, possibly dipping into some knowledge of character "hooks" (of personality! not history-knowledge: and this is precisely where the possibility of obtaining highly desired and otherwise unavailable/unaffordable equipment can make a perfect motivation) to do so. Any player playing a well-defined character can be steered into almost anything by a GM able to see the situation from that character's pov ... and they'll do it of their own free will. (Presentation is everything biggrin.gif)

By the sounds of what's been said here, there was no intention on this Johnson's part to double-cross, but it came across at least in part as though that were a possibility. Fair enough: players will -- and should! -- always see this as a possibility: but if you're going to turn down every run that has any potential whatsoever for double-cross, you aren't going to be working ... period. Working in the shadows is a constant balancing equation between the risk inherent in the job (including the risk by the Johnson) and the payoff of that job. There are ways for the GM to downplay the appearance of the first and upplay the appearance of the second without resorting to the purely financial or in fact altering the basic structure intended run in any manner -- but it's hard to specify what would work here without some knowledge of the personality of the characters.

However, try it from the reverse pov (and this is an exercise both for player and for GM): what kind of situation -- independent of the other characters' reactions -- would have been considered an acceptable run? Again, bear in mind in trying to answer this that perfect knowledge won't ever exist at the time of the meet (and probably not perfect teammates either): and that no Johnson will ever be entirely straight with you. Where do you draw your balance between available knowledge and willingness to take the run?

(Is it a common method of play to give the PC a point of karma for not taking a run? I wouldn't. From my perspective, there shouldn't be any inherent indefinite growth possible from constantly turning down challenge.)

Having said all that, I'll go back to what Velocity said earlier: there's a difference between
a group walking away from a job and a single PC walking away.

The potential to refuse a run may always exist -- but you'll end up with a very different game tone where players choose individually, as opposed to where the players decide as a group.
QUOTE (arcady @ Aug 2 2005, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE (Edge2054 @ Aug 2 2005, 10:09 AM)
It's the player's job to play his character.  If his character if of the attitude that that's not how to run biz then he's within his bounds to look for another job.

If you show up to a social gathering, you have an implied duty to get along. RPGs are a group affair, about an ensemble cast. No one character is the star of the movie. It's a team affair and you need to make a 'team player'.

Not doing so is the mark of a bad player - no matter how good your acting skills.

Not having any grace for the awkwardness of the first meeting of a new campaign, or the sillyness of gamer-geekdom, or the difficulty a GM faces in dealing with setting up an initial story for new characters with likely new players... Not having that grace is the mark of an extremely bad player.

The burden of making a game work needs to fall equally - you can't put all the weight on the GM's shoulder and then whine and complain when it fails.

Sorry, but I think that's bull. you're supposed to be roleplaying a character. Which means the whole time, not just after you accept the mission becuase that's whats been set up. Hell, I've had a character that walked (or tried to ) from a run my wife was GMing at my home. But it's not like I was gonna pitch a fit, or try to play my character while everyone else did the run. This was/is a very tight group, both IC and OOC. I would've sat and watched. That's the player/characters perogative. Most characters should be played as having enough sense to worry about their necks to not take stupid chances. If you'd do that in a fight, why not at a meet.

Conversely, I've had a Johnson walk out on a meet with the characters, because one of them was dicking around. That character got his head straight pretty quick. There's no point in even having the meet otherwise. Might as well just start the characters at the beginning of the run if you're just going to preten that they have a say.

For what it's worth BTW, the run I tried to walk out of was awesome, paid great, and was a hell of a lot of fun. The character/I tried to walk because the "johnson" pissed him off. But the character wasn't taking it as seriosuly as he should of either (damn impulsive flaw). But that was the character's choice. Bought off that flaw after that run. wink.gif
Wounded Ronin
Eh, I'd have taken the Johnson's story for granted. It makes things more interesting in-game.
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 2 2005, 05:03 AM)
Again, I reference you to the "Welcome to the Shadows" section: where one sees provisos such as "I would have walked, but ..." all the time.  In fact, I only know of one run in "Welcome to the Shadows" where the PCs did walk: and that's only because there were persistant background OOC issues which were translated by the GM into IC -- even so, some of the players tried hard to make it work anyway.  So the medium of the game is relevant, here.

Surely you don't mean the last game I tried to run? wink.gif

Only one PC walked, but then he and 2 other players quit. Too bad for the other 2 or 3 players.

[edit] Hey, I notice I don't need to keep your secret identity secret anymore. <wanders off to find Eyeless Blond.> [/edit]
QUOTE (Mr. Man)
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Aug 2 2005, 01:28 AM)
or insiting that a sword in the hands of a mundane is better than a gun in the hands of a sammy (even for ranged combat)

That goes beyond a "D&D with guns" mentality and into "just plain stupid".

Sit them down in front of Raiders of the Lost Ark and tell them its a docudrama.

It isn't? Next you tell me, X-Files isn't true either and my application to join StarGate Command won't have a chance?

Na, I don't believe you

I'm paranoid when a telemarketer calls my house. I don't care who hits my cell, but my house # is mine unless I or my parents give it out.

That said, the two major snags are 1: Calling at the house is just plain unprofessional, no two ways about it. No runner in his right mind would give his house # out, but considering this was probably a new player type of game, it happens. Let it go after asking OOC if this is the way he wants it or if he just erred. If he says "No, somehow the guy found your # though you didn't give it," then there's problems. If he says "Oops, its your cell," then its okay.

Snag 2 is that there wasn't even 1,000 nuyen paid down. I can write this off as new-GMitis, but the PCs in question could have said "Hey, lets negotiate a little; We'll take 5 of that up front and you've got us." Chances are, its not going to happen, but maybe "Well, since you run so many facilities you must have 5,000 nuyen up in liquid assets" sounds good?

I'm all for dungeon crawl style things. I do them, I love them. I also don't mind the double-cross, since its always possible, but I understand why a new player and character might be nervous. Better to be paranoid and a little hungry then trusting and corpsed.
In this instance I would metagame a bit and let a few things slide.

IC, if the rigger is not a part of a regular team and is looking for work or a team like in this situation, I think they need to expect to stick their neck out a bit further than usual. He is going to have to be a bit more vulnerable and take a little risk to find some security with a new team.
Talia Invierno
I'm paranoid when a telemarketer calls my house. I don't care who hits my cell, but my house # is mine unless I or my parents give it out.
- frostPDP

Huh. In a different context, we were just having a discussion about the importance not only of reliable information but the source of that information. Let's say, for example, that you're trying to set up a major meet with a shadowy figure, and for whatever reason you don't have their number and/or can't call them -- but you do have their address, because it was given to you (not by the shadowy figure, but by a nosy reporter). What is likely to happen if you just turn up at their door?
Hey, I notice I don't need to keep your secret identity secret anymore
- tisoz

Quite apart from the several earlier times I'd mentioned it and the time it was IC dropped in Alleycat's storyline (yipe?!), I'd have been hard-pressed to shatter it more thoroughly than this wink.gif
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