But don't forget that if it is aware of what is happening to it and why, it just might harbour a grudge: against its creator primarily, but also possibly against the team as a whole

Sounds like an overreaction. I might make him buy the next pizza for the group.

After all, the cheating was caught and nothing bad happened. It's not like the guy ran around killing other PCs without good cause.

I'd suggest dumbing down the AI to the abilities of a PC decker, not one of SR's standard super-decker SKs or god-like AIs. Make the AI a "brain in a box" without exceptional abilities (in terms of intellect or decking). Say the PC concentrated so much on making the AI "truly sentient" that he neglected the other features.

It would be the same as I fast talk them into paying me for more crap the next time I unload onto them. I talks to them and makes my roll against said canon TN with abovementioned dice(loaded if possible). There are no rules, you do whatever you need to do to win. Isn't that how it goes in the shadows?

How long do you think it would take for your enemies to figure out who you unload to and lean on them and you or your enemies have to kill them for being liabilities?

How long before you are caught using loaded dice? Does it make any difference anyway?

they may start to make sure you never get a chance to fast talk them in future, maybe by not dealing with you in future at all. It's easy enough to set some kind of perimeter up (threefold: physical, electronic, word-of-mouth), such that you can't talk with them directly. It's not even something the GM as such does to you, just the consequences of your own actions coming home to roost.

Well, that's always the case, whether or not you're trying to pull a fast one over on people you regularly deal with.

In the specific case in this thread, one extended AI-creation roll. Whether or not it makes any difference as to how long, ask the creator of this thread.

Pretty much, it's as Talia said: Bookstores tend to frown on furious screaming. In fact, they tend to frown on it even more when they can hear it on the other side of walls they thought to be soundproofed (the guy decided to wave damages on us because of the amount of money he got from the resulting lawsuit).

The AI potnetially has access to every host on the Matrix for its distrubuted computing needs.

It does not matter whether you play your contacts as reasonably intelligent or not. There are no rules for that. Or rather even if you do pull the same stunt each time every time, unless you screw up your roll, they will never realise the fact. You still have them as a contact. Game mechanically, you still get to talk to them. As much as you would like to have a "perimeter" set up, the NPC will still talk to the PC anyway as long as the player did pay "upkeep" for the contact. You may make the PC lose the NPC as a contact if he does not upkeep but that is as far as it goes in terms of rules.

My point is that from the perspective of a me-first shadowrunner, NPC contacts are inherently expendable. Milk them for what they are worth and toss them away.

Just like the player milked his loaded dice for what they are worth and had his fun for that roll. If the selfish/calculative/etc IC attitude split over to his OOC attitude, he might be milking his fellow players and GM for what fun they might provide.

Cheating is far worse, IMO. If someone decides to make his character keep randomly attacking other characters, at least that's out in the open, everyone knows what's going on, and it's by the book. Cheating with weighted dice, on the other hand, is an attempt to decieve the whole group for the sake of a single individual who can't deal with dying in a freaking game. Cheaters should be kicked out and sent back to kindergarten so they can learn that sometimes when you play a game you don't win.

And this wouldn't gain the attention of say, how many major corps and deckers (soon to be Hackers) how? Some of these fellows would be more than happy to erm... track the bugger down then throw a fiery bottle of naptha and dish detergent into the mix.

Also, I was under the impression that the AI was still relatively contained, against just such an occurrence as that described above.

I think setting numbers like that is a reflection of the odds of it happening, and I think that it shows GM's flexibility. I would have done the same thing. With the loaded die, I find that remarkable that anyone would try that. I would have handled things like the GM did. instant dead pc. (I love the idea of knowing the secret to making AI's then dying.)

As for the AI, I think I would chaulked it up to a technical glitch. The AI did exist, then destabilized and burned out all of the hardware irrevocably.

I don't think I could do that because the people I game with have been my friends for over a decade, sometimes two decades. Compared to what we've been through in real life, cheating on a few dice rolls is cause for a laugh and razzing the cheater. (Past 2 months: one dead mother, one house hit by a car, one long-time friend butchered with a samurai sword. Past decade: girl friends cheating within the group, college and jobs sending people across the world, and we're still gaming together.)

I mean, I go to a funeral with someone 6 weeks ago and I should tell them, "Piss off, go back to kindergarten for fudging those dice rolls last night?" That'd require some mixed-up priorities.

In high school - 12-15 years ago for most of the group - there were shouting matches over rules interpretations, game boards being flipped across the room for dice cheating, and that sort of crap. But it's like, who gives a damn now? If you cheat egregiously enough, your penance is to buy a pizza or the next round of beers, roll your dice where everyone can watch, and put up with the razzing for (being caught) cheating like a man.

The only gamer who regularly cheated and was ostracized from the group was just personally annoying. He was shunned more for being an irritant than cheating. With his cheating, we just had someone doublecheck the numbers on his character sheet and watch some of his dice rolls. (We also tried to not let him GM, but that was because his runs were as irritating as he was.)

You think they would cheat despite all that? It's certainly possible, but I consider that sort of connection to typically be a strong disincentive to cheating in and of itself.

In any event, the tone of the first post makes it clear that that isn't the case here.

~J

Heh. Yes, because the connection usually keeps players from ratting out another to the GM, depending on the circumstances.

Oh, well. Different group, different behaviors, and groups change. I don't think I've seen a good shouting match at one of my games in 7 or 8 years.

Did I miss anything important?

Damn, your group dynamic sucks. Talk about a doublecross.

I thought that was it, but I was hoping oh so much that I was wrong.

I suggest stabbing.

~J

Whuffie.

In that case, ignore all of the anti-cheater advice we gave and follow this diagram instead.

Notice that your foot in not visable in the diagram.

One thing we can learn from this thread.....setting a TN for the impossible task is like giving the unkillable NPC stats.

That is ALWAYS a good option.

A called shot to bypass sphincter, like any other melee called shot, would have a TN of 8-reach-friends in melee-weapon attuning.

In other words, hold him down while the troll adept with attuned steel-toed workboots does it.

Taking Deus as a Friend for Life is gamebreaking. Simply creating an AI isn't because that AI may not have plans that will ultimatly require your demise. I still say that its nature as sentient Black ICE should result in a desire to eleminate all non-electronic life on Earth.