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SimpleRunner
I plan to play with the numbers and see exactly when a character reaches the pinnacle of their career. After running 5 sessions of SR4 with various character builds and concepts I have found that the system has very defined limits. But after seeing these characters created, what is going to happen during the duration of say 2 years of game play?

In SR2 and SR3 stats and skills along with Magic at various force levels made it possible to hang the carrot in front of the characters. In SR4 (the assortment of skills, skill groups and stats all having hard caps, essence only malleable via the various grades of the wares but limited further by bioware) what is the Prize for getting up there?
Spookymonster
Wouldn't that be where the advanced rulebooks come into play?
FrankTrollman
Essence is actually much less of a cap now than it was in SR3. While Bio-index is gone, the fact that a character's essence loss from Bioware or Cyberware is halved means that in essence any character can have 4 Essence of Cyberware or Bioware, and then 3.99999 Essence worth of the other at the same time. That means that every character can have nearly 8 Essence worth of crap in their bodies without even going to zero.

And the new reduced essence costs and capacity rules make it so that you can have as much cyberware as you really want to have. Heck, if you got yourself a cyberbody (4 limbs, torso, skull), you'd have so much capacity available that you couldn't actually make use of it all until the Augmentation book comes out. And that's all on about 3 Essence if you get it Delta.

So no, there isn't any problem with lack of extensibility with Street Sammies. Bioware can be made delta grade in this edition, so at the limit of infinite money you can max out your initiative bonuses on less than a single essence point.

No, the problem isn't that you run out of essence to spend - the problem is that the basic book doesn't have enough things to spend your essence on! Of course, Augmentation is going to be an entirely separate book that will have new things to spend Essence on, so once that hits I imagine that the Cyborgs can jolly well continue to amass nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif and sicki it into their bodies for as long as you own your car.

Now, a mundane really does come into the hard limit of things to spend their Karma on. Once all your stats are at 6, and you have raised your high value skills up to 6, and specialized them all - that's it. You aren't allowed to buy anything else. For a slickly designed character that could be as few as 521 Karma - which could correspond to less than 2 years with weekly play.

-Frank
SimpleRunner
Missed that detail of Bioware being able to be Delta grade specs... interesting...

As for advanced books they can't came out soon enough for me... Still though will look to see where the point of value drops off. Just need to know if I have a campain that runs 20-45 sessions over will the characters have bewen recylceled over that time frame or what. The example of 512 Karma over 2 years is good, just want to check on my own and see.
Ravennus
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Heck, if you got yourself a cyberbody (4 limbs, torso, skull), you'd have so much capacity available that you couldn't actually make use of it all until the Augmentation book comes out. And that's all on about 3 Essence if you get it Delta.

As far as capacity, this just isn't true. In fact, I find cyberlimbs to be even more useless in SR4.

Have you taken a look at the tables for cyberlimb capacities and accessories on page 336 and 337?

First of all, EVERY cyberlimb starts at 3 for all it's attribute ratings. It doesn't matter if it's for a human or a troll. As an Orc fresh out of chargen with an 8 Body, 4 Agility and 7 Strength...would take 10 capacity (1 for each point) out of 15 capacity just to buy them up to the rest of your meat bodies stats. Oh! That's also if you ignore the availability restriction, since it's attribute bonusX3 and a +5 body on the limb would come to 15 availability.
Wait folks, there's more!! You would also be REQUIRED to buy a cybertorso, since you can't raise an attribute on the limb higher than +3 without it.

Did I mention that you also need to buy up the physical stats on a fraggin' cybertorso if you want your attributes to even out? (Check out the cyberlimb example text on page 335)
That means...the most you should raise your attributes on all your limbs is in any combination of 10 capacity worth (the total capacity of an obvious cybertorso). Reason being, you have to average the stats together with the lower rated torso, which makes it almost pointless. Strange, since they call cybertorsos and cyberskulls 'shells' instead of true replacements (on the very same page).
Oh, btw....armor costs 2 capacity per point, so good luck fitting that in.

I haven't even got to the various accessories you can add in...
Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?

As you can see, even buying up the attributes on a cyberlimb to match your meat body will fill up most of your limb's capacity. There are also definate limits on how high you can enhance the attributes.

Don't even get me started on synthetic cyberlimbs...half capacity I can understand, but at how much room it takes to enhance a limb to comparable levels, it makes them useless. Oh, and synthetic cyberlimbs seem to have taken a swan dive in detectability. They are easily spotted, and are automatically discovered with a simple touch.

Hey, and what's with the cyberskull having an availability of 16!? That's higher than most milspec boom-boom in the book. Tell me what advantage does someone get when purchasing one, other than looking like a total freak? Umm...4 capacity (obvious) to cram in some extra headware? Whoopee.
This is just another example of stupidly high availability ratings put onto an item so it simply can't be bought in chargen, often times just because of flavor or because the writers didn't like the possible combination with other items.
Apparently, Fanpro didn't want any fully cyberbodied characters walking out of chargen, even if they were willing to be drastically ineffective compared to characters using other cyberware and bioware.

Additionally, grades of cyberware don't change how much you can fit in a limb, or how much capacity a certain piece of 'ware takes up. Plus, how often do shadowrunners in most campaigns (I know yours might be the exception) live long enough to afford (and find) deltaware? Not often, I'll betchya. Even if you did manage it, the 3.125 essence spent would still leave you with little room for other useful things like wired reflexes. What you say? Synaptic Accelerator? Oh, sorry....your whole body is cyber, that excludes you from having any bioware (pg. 335, though I guess you could get some work done on the brain). Technically, it also states you can't get any cyberware that has an essence cost but no capacity cost. That means you are out of luck for even purchasing wired reflexes.

I find it very strange that miniaturization is so rampant in 2070 (e.g.-contact lenses with built-in smartlink and other vision enhancements) and yet cyberlimbs can barely live up to an unmodified natural arm without running out of room.

This REALLY needs to be looked at in the errata.

Meanwhile with my group, I will be removing all the capacity costs for attribute enhancements (and maybe armor) to limbs. You are simple buying a more powerful limb model. Also, cyberlimbs are available that scale to your metatype (an Ork cyberarm starts with 6 body and 5 strength instead of 3 to each). A cybertorso will only be required once you have increased the limb's attribute past the normal racial maximum. I will keep most of the availability ratings, except for cybertorsos and cyberskulls, which will both be 6 (2 more than standard cyberlimb, so still a bit harder to find). Some of the capacity ratings of accessories will also be reworked, but not too much, since attribute enhancements won't be taking extra room now. Oh, and synthetic cyberlimbs are much harder to spot (depending on grade, as well). All higher grade limbs will also get slightly more capacity, as the accessories are better miniaturized (though they have to be bought at the same grade, per the rules).

Keeping the availability limit on attribute enhancements (+4 max, at 12 avail), this should make things much more reasonable and still fair.
A full cyborg still won't come close to competing with a min-maxed cyber/bio sammie out of chargen (or an adept, for that matter), but the possibility to later make up the difference in upgrades is there if you have a lot of nuyen and connections to a high-class doctor/clinic. Also, this is one more small step to 'GitS' cyborgs, which I was hoping for in this edition.

I really don't understand FASA/Fanpro's fear and loathing of full cyborgs, which IMHO are an integral part of a proper cyberpunk setting, but it is definitely there.
In fact, they seem to be trying to phase cyberlimbs completely out of the picture.
Check out this quote from the first paragraph on cyberlimbs...
QUOTE
pg.335 SR4.... In today's world of streamlined bioware, the use of cyberlimbs is sometimes viewed as crude and outdated.  On the other hand, they are cheap to service and upgrade, so in the end they became even more popular for the less fortunate.

I know that some cyberpunk games take the powerlevel of cyborgs a little too far, but in a setting like Shadowrun... I really don't see that being a problem. We have powerful mojo-slingers, adepts, trolls, and bioware.
In fact, I think a full cyborg would make an interesting and playable 'archetype' of it's own. *shrug*

Anyway, that's my 2 nuyen.gif , and then some.
Sorry for the rant, but it's really been on my mind lately. Please don't take it personally... it's not a flame by any means. Your comment just set me in motion! talker.gif

-Ravennus cyber.gif

Phoniex
While i agree with some of what you said ravennus. I still think that now cyber replacement is much more friendly and useful than in 3rd edition. I mean I have already made a borg in 4th and i am very happy with how it came out, you could not do the same in 3rd edition without deltaware/insane amounts of money and no avail. cap. Yes, trolls and orcs can get the shaft when you replace their whole bodies, but the quick and easy fix is to sell troll average ware to trolls and if some idiot human wants orc or troll ware give them a constant penality because of it. Say -1 die for every attribute difference between the ware and your body.

But, this system works much better than the old and there is now a reason to get cyber arms/legs other than having them blown off and getting replacements.

No its not perfect across the meta types, but its light years beyond what we had so i am content, for now.

morlock76
The biggest "problem" with a full borg would be that he (it) cant spend karma on physical attributes aka. reaches the "cap" even quicker then a bio / cyber sam.
Also the advantages bioware give are totally left out, which is a big downside.

I think the version of going full borg as race would make much more sense there.

Given the nature of the cyberlimbs, even if you buff em, partial limbs are uber and full ones just blow.

On my char I went for a lower arm and basically spend .15 more essence then before but got a "free" gyro and ultrasound.

Essence isnt so much a limiting factor (in the beginning) then it used to be, cash is way more of an issue.

Guess we have to convert the CP rules to SR4 now, but no news there.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (SimpleRunner @ Sep 7 2005, 03:41 AM)
In SR2 and SR3 stats and skills along with Magic at various force levels made it possible to hang the carrot in front of the characters. In SR4 (the assortment of skills, skill groups and stats all having hard caps, essence only malleable via the various grades of the wares but limited further by bioware) what is the Prize for getting up there?

Even in SR4, there is always YAUS (yet another useful skill) to stuff karma into - especially when trying to get the one 7 afterwards... Attributes are quite a karma sink, too.

Even when starting with 500 BP and distributing about 700 Karma, there is still room, as well as 'need' to grow.
fistandantilus4.0
yeah, but my beef with it is that eventually all of your "YAUS" can eventaully all be taken , and maxed. Be as good as is possible at every skill! That's jsut bull. Having one character that can literally do everything at the absolute peak of metahuman ability.

The sole exception I see to this is initiation, which, eventaully ,puts adepts and mages beyond everyone again , unless they capped that too at some point.
"sorry, initiates can only go up to grade 6 now. Have a nice day!"

Rotbart van Dainig
Well, that point was there in SR3, too... not capped, though, but when you hit 8 in everything, it was just as strange.

The point of awakened (including technomancers) of not having any cap in SR4 is disturbing, though.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Ravennus)
QUOTE

Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?



After reading the description for the Cyberarm Slide it says it has "total concealment". If that is the case then it is basically a cyberholster with a built in slide since a gun is usually attached to it, and that explains the capacity cost.
Ravennus
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (Ravennus)
QUOTE

Like for example, how a Cyberarm Slide (a cyber version of the normal equipment version which lets you pop out a pistol into your hand) takes up 8 capacity...yes, more than half of the total capacity in an obvious cyberarm.
Meanwhile, a cyberarm gyromount only costs 4 capacity...half that of the slide? Mwa?



After reading the description for the Cyberarm Slide it says it has "total concealment". If that is the case then it is basically a cyberholster with a built in slide since a gun is usually attached to it, and that explains the capacity cost.

I was thinking the same thing, but the wording is so vague that I'm not sure that it's talking about total concealment of the weapon or just concealment of the slide itself.

As far as it being possible to make a total borg out of chargen, yes...it's finally possible, though you have to fudge the rules a bit on the availability of the cyberskull.
However, I still honestly believe that a 'borg out of chargen is at a total disadvantage compared to other sammies and combat adepts. Especially when it comes to reflexes. Also, it's still ridiculous that it costs 9 capacity just to bring a limb up to the normal racial max on all three physical attributes. Heck, there's not even enough room in some synthetic cyberlimbs to do that. We aren't even talking about the modified max yet, of which other sammies can easily (and cheaply) push using other cyberware and bioware.

That's a whole lot of work, essence, and nuyen just to make a cyborg body that's comparable to a well-built natural (meta)human body. Sure, it's possible now, and those of us that just want the chance to RP a full conversion borg will do it... but in my mind, the cost is just too high.

-Ravennus
The Jopp
What's the stupidity with cyberlimbs in general? Basically ALL other cyberware has had a boost in tech level but for some reason cyberlimbs has not had an advancement since shadowrun 2050'ish. After twenty years of technological advancement no improvement on the essence cost of cyberlimbs or miniaturization of cyberlimb implants, or even integrated wireless/DNI connections for all kinds of cybernetics (ok, the latter might arrive in later books).

Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

If they had put the price on a cyberlimb at 1500Y then i could have understood it, or lowered the availability to zero (yes, zero on the cyberskull as well...availability 16 is just silly)

On another note:

A limousine is usually pretty hard to get, they don't churn it out from factories by the truckload, they build one when someone wants it, they don't flood the market with it. How many riggers will drive around in a limousine for measly 20K...

Ok, compared to the stepvan it ain't so impressive but how can a luxury vehicle be cheaper than a glorified delivery van?

mmu1
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 10:47 AM)
Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.
The Jopp
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 10:47 AM)
Here's another fun part. Cyberlimbs are cheaper...are they? Let's have a little look...

Cyberlimb SR3: 75K VS Maximum resources: 1000K
Standard cymberlimb is 7,5% of your resources.

Cyberlimb SR4: 15K VS Maximum resource: 250K
Standard Cyberlimb is 6% of your resources.

Now, if this is a game balance thing then they have done something wrong. Come on, cheaper? And what about racial modified cyberlimbs? *sigh* I guess I just repeat some earlier post about this but this is really bugging me.

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.

Well let's add the points we have to use for contacs, those were covered by ones resources in SR3. In SR4 they can become pretty expensive after a few contacts. Let's say 5 points apiece, that's the equivalent of 25K for each contact.
blakkie
QUOTE (The Jopp)
Well let's add the points we have to use for contacs, those were covered by ones resources in SR3. In SR4 they can become pretty expensive after a few contacts. Let's say 5 points apiece, that's the equivalent of 25K for each contact.

So are you now talking about building Robo-Face?
The Jopp
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE

The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician...)

Though the lack of metatype-specific cyberlimbs really does bite.



Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.
blakkie
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 11:11 AM)
Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.

So basically completely tangent and unrelated to cyberlimbs topic?
The Jopp
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 7 2005, 11:11 AM)
Nope, I was commenting about the above text in response to how much cyberlimbs had NOT been reduced in price. In SR3 you could BUY contacts, now you cant which makes it harder to have lots of contacts since they are very expensive points wise.

So basically completely tangent and unrelated to cyberlimbs topic?

I think you misunderstand what I responded to, read what MMU1 wrote and my response to it. (see below)

-------------
"The thing you're not looking at is what fraction of your starting resources you have to give up in order to get the max amount of cash... In SR4 it's 1/8th, in SR3 it's 1/4th. (in the point buy system, anyway - in priority, 1,000,000 is worth as much as 30 attribute points or being a full magician..."
-------------

In SR3 your resources INCLUDED your contacts since you bought them with your money, in SR4 you use points to buy your contacts, hence the calculation of using 1/8 of SR4 Build points for resources is slightly flawed compared to SR3 since that 1/4 include a big chunk of comparable BP in character contacts for SR4.

(It DID step away a bit from cyberlimbs but i wanted it clarified)
blakkie
Thus my reference to Robo-Face. A highly connected face character normally wasn't a chromed to the nuts character, basically because the SR3 chargen system didn't really allow it. In SR4 if you are going all out on the cash AND contacts then you are using the chargen's flexibility it didn't really have in SR3. Likely using it to hang your character by starving it for BP elsewhere, but that is separate from the drop in gear prices.
Kyoto Kid
Back to the main topic

My character namesake (even after the hits she would take during conversion), would basically now be retired at the venerable age of 22. She is pretty much at the limit, for attributes and skills pertinent to her profession (Way of the Athlete Physad) Since she is Awakened she is not very prone to dumping a lot of ware in her body (she has some minimal Bio - Enhanced Articulation 2 levels of muscle tone). She has her bonded Weapon Focus an Adept focus, and an infusion focus (Mystic Armour 4)

Yeah, there is that Karma Sink known as Initiation, but if the Modified limit of 1.5 also applies to her magic attribute (haven't seen anything about this yet since the book still has not shown up) she is already a couple of levels above that. As an adept she is also more limited in Metamagic offerings (Masking, Centering, and Infusion being the most useful talents, that is if they still exist) which along with the added power point would be the only reason to keep initiating.

THis is a character who has been around for several years (and two conversions already). Though she is basically a Prime runner, under SR3 there was still room to grow, still things to improve. Under the SR4 limits she is basically done, gone as far as she could go in her profession.

I agree with one of the earlier posts to this thread. When a character gets to her proscribed limits, there really isn't much left to do without going out of the bounds of her concept. In that light one may just as well start a new character and retire the old one. I am beginning to see this as being too finite, and just another "brick in the wall" so to say, to keep going with SR3. in spite of its inconsistencies.
blakkie
There is nothing about Grade limits. Awakened are still open ended, even though the openning was tightened a bit by increasing effective karma costs for raising Magic (while actually making that Magic in some ways do more, at least for casters/conjurers).

Also the meta-magics so far seem to be a bit more supportive of Adepts, although you'll have to wait for Street Magic to prove that out. The Mentor Spirit options (aka Totems) certainly are more Adept friendly/useful, so your Adept could look into those.

P.S. You also might want to relook at exactly what the numbers are for converting that PC, because if you are bringing them straight across that is a mistake. But overall i think that allowing some sort of [karma intensive] way to boost Skills and Attrs needs to be address.
snowRaven
Lesse... we'll take the standard Street Samurai from SR4. Assume he spent his nuyen on lots of neat toys - the specifics there aren't important.

What's the most important stats for a street sam?

B 4 to 6 = 33 karma
A 5 to 6 = 18 karma
R 4 to 6 = 33 karma
S 5 to 6 = 18 karma
I 3 to 6 = 45 karma
W 3 to 6 = 45 karma

192 karma.

Spend another 192 karma on skills, and the only thing left is to expand into other areas, or learn new weapons (unnecessary most of the time).

Meaning, a street sam caps in his field of work around 400 karma, and even long before that (around 200) he will have capped his most important skills and stats.

Not to mention, at that point he will be as accomplished as any legendary Prime Runner in his field.


Of course, the upside to this is that PC runners will fairly quickly be the Argent's, FastJack's, Talon's, and such of their world...

The drawbacks are that eventually they will all be very similar (all attributes 6, most important running skills 6), separated only by their race, and what 'wares or magic they chose.

We'll avoid munchkins though grinbig.gif
Chandon
What about letting mundanes with 100+ karma buy up their essence and/or buy a bonus to a single skill group...?
Xenith
Raise caps for characters a bit, but require alot of effort for both the character and player. A quest of sorts to find a guru for that particular skill. And don't allow a character to raise a skill without the teacher.

I allow this up to a rating of 9 (10 with aptutude). Which isn't as scary as you might think versus npcs of skill even two points lower. Then again, main stats are more expensive too. smile.gif
Shadow_Prophet
Well couple things to comment on here.

First... Kyoto Kid if you were able to 'convert' your character to sr4 without the book for reference I'm rather impressed. Secondly if you've been through 2 conversions already your character has been around for aleast 10 years (icly) at this point...atleast. Yeah I could easeily say that you'd be at the top, or damn near top of your game.

But moving back to other things. Yes with 200 karma you can get prety close to maxing out. But I don't overly fear this. Allow me to explain why.

I do two things to keep all of this in check. First off I don't give out truckloads of karma every run. You survive you get one, if you actualy managed to complete atleast 2/3 your objectives you get another one. Then theres a few other rewards I hand out completely subjectively, ie if someone managed to come up with a brilliant idea that saved them bingo. But I also have 2 player voted awards, and one 'learning' award. The two player awards are most humorus, and the infamous 'he did WHAT?!?!?!' award. And then we go around and see if they, the characters and possibly the PC's learned anything. This isn't something they always get. And its based on my subjective judgement. If a pc says "I learend bullets hurt" he aint getting squat.

Essentialy most of the time players will get 2 for a run and possibly 3 or 4. More if they actualy did something to warrent it or it was extra challenging or such. But generaly they get about 3 a run and occasionaly they get a point or two of karma in which they can only spend on a certain skill.

What this boils down to is they don't overly accumulate karma too fast, they earn it. And ontop of that theres training times that I apply. So it takes them a while to build things up. And not every run only lasts one session. Add on I run a decently lethal game once things start rolling. They aren't going to max any time soon. 2 years if they have managed to have all original characters around still and have maxed out their characters I'll be rather impressed.

If hard caps are such a problem with systems such as this...how have all the other systems been able to survive that use a similar system?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 26 2005, 04:02 PM)
If hard caps are such a problem with systems such as this...how have all the other systems been able to survive that use a similar system?

Different kind of clientele... sometimes.

Diversified characters still are karma sinks, too... in fact, worse than ever, as there are way more skills.

In fact, when converting, most characters will end up needing way more karma.
Cain
QUOTE
If hard caps are such a problem with systems such as this...how have all the other systems been able to survive that use a similar system?

The only system that uses this sort of hard-caps that comes immediately to mind is NWoD; by some amazing coincidence, much of that system is pretty close to what happens in SR4. At any event, once you've maxed out your skills and attributes (5 for mundane humans) the only way you can get better is to add qualities or supernatural powers. Depending on your supernatural selection (Mage, Werewolf, or Vampire) you get new limits and purchase costs on certain traits.
Eagle
I would argue about allowing raising stats and skills beyond normal cap ratings. Normal method to get to skill 7, then treble the costs to keep on going. It'll quickly become a karma sink. Double or treble the cost for an attribute for beyond the racial max.

What does the character get for all that karma, well not very much, we're looking at 1 extra dice when they already have 13+ dice, that ain't going to change the probabilities much. It just makes them the "ultimate" in their chosen field, with the rep of being the definitive authority on the topic.

Anyone else notice that trolls and orcs have to spend more pushing up their stats to get their racial maximums? They start stronger, but take longer to improve.
Fortune
QUOTE (Eagle)
I would argue about allowing raising stats and skills beyond normal cap ratings. Normal method to get to skill 7, then treble the costs to keep on going. It'll quickly become a karma sink. Double or treble the cost for an attribute for beyond the racial max.

What does the character get for all that karma, well not very much, we're looking at 1 extra dice when they already have 13+ dice, that ain't going to change the probabilities much. It just makes them the "ultimate" in their chosen field, with the rep of being the definitive authority on the topic.

I could almost be swayed to agree with dumping the cap on Skills, but I would definitely keep Attributes capped.

QUOTE
Anyone else notice that trolls and orcs have to spend more pushing up their stats to get their racial maximums? They start stronger, but take longer to improve.


Yeah, but they also don't pay a Point cost for their negative stats at chargen, other than as a maximum limit.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
If hard caps are such a problem with systems such as this...how have all the other systems been able to survive that use a similar system?

The only system that uses this sort of hard-caps that comes immediately to mind is NWoD; by some amazing coincidence, much of that system is pretty close to what happens in SR4. At any event, once you've maxed out your skills and attributes (5 for mundane humans) the only way you can get better is to add qualities or supernatural powers. Depending on your supernatural selection (Mage, Werewolf, or Vampire) you get new limits and purchase costs on certain traits.

There's actualy a few systems out there. But yes the new WoD is one of them, and probably the most recognizable one.

I'll go with Robert on this one though...mostly different clientel.

QUOTE
Anyone else notice that trolls and orcs have to spend more pushing up their stats to get their racial maximums? They start stronger, but take longer to improve.


Well if you look at things they start just as far from their racial max as humans. If you look at things you'll also see that if you start a character with just the baseline stats for his race that a troll will reach 6 in their big attributes much faster than a human. Also if you give the troll as much karma as the human to get to level 6 in say str, the troll will be 3 karma away from getting 8. 8 sir. Thats super human levels of strength.

Lets look at the buildpoint costs. To get a human to even 6 strength it costs 75 BP. Whereas it costs a troll 10. You spend 75 to max one stat at 6 and with a troll you can spend 5 points more and have two stats at 9. I think really in the end it all ballances out.
Azralon
I skimmed the thread and didn't notice anything about this yet, so I apologize if it's already been mentioned. I honestly didn't look that hard. smile.gif

Public Awareness is a new interesting limitation, in that the RAW says that if you have a 3+ PA then Johnsons will hesistate to hire you. You're too high-profile at that point.

Basically that means that eventually -- even if you keep your nose clean and don't earn a single point of Notoriety -- you're going to have to alter your running style after 300 karma (at best). You're no longer a faceless deniable/expendable asset that can get jobs done under the radar; you're now an official presence on the street. Johnsons, I imagine, will assume that if something happens to you (good or bad) SOMEONE will notice.

To me, that's sort of like turning 20 in D&D 3.5: You've been around the block enough at this point to where you're no longer waiting for jobs to come to you; you're epic enough to create work for yourself. Sure, no Johnsons are hiring you anymore, but now you're good enough to just cut out the middleman.

Feel like hijacking an Ares weapon shipment? Go for it. Presumably you've got the skills and connections to not only pull it off, but successfully fence the goods (except what you'd want to keep for yourself). Heck, at this point you're probably subcontracting lesser tasks to newbie runners.

Alternately, you might have to break down and hitch your wagon to an organization of some kind. Pledge yourself to your local oyabun if you need to; that might be the only way you can get steady work from now on.

Anyway, my point is that the game now has a nifty way to force you to "grow up" once your character has had enough impact upon the world. That's something to take into consideration when thinking long term.

Not that too many 'Runners get to ever see the "long term," but hey. wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Those rules simply don't work that way, considering an normal reward of 4,5 karma every run.

But even when using them, you can always burn 2 points of SC to reduce your N by 1. (Whether you could do so without even haven an N above 0 is an interesting debate).

So, those rules require a clever character to fuck up every sixth job, then playing his reputation as an excuse and better.

Actually, this comes close to how it works not to become too important:
Don't do too well, just have a positive average, make people mostly satisfied but not happy.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Those rules simply don't work that way, considering an normal reward of 4,5 karma every run.

But even when using them, you can always burn 2 points of SC to reduce your N by 1. (Whether you could do so without even haven an N above 0 is an interesting debate).

So, those rules require a clever character to fuck up every sixth job, then playing his reputation as an excuse and better.

Actually, this comes close to how it works not to become too important:
Don't do too well, just have a positive average, make people mostly satisfied but not happy.

Well at 300 karma you've earend 30 points of street cred. And since we want our PA to be down lower than 3 we're going to need a total of no more than 8. Which means the runner would have had to commit 11 seperate and wholy distinct acts worthy of noteriety atleast. Not a easy thing to do considering you should never be given a noteriety point for the same thing more than once unless you do it in a new interesting and completely different way.

Its harder to stay dead even than you might think. Especialy when you can get extra street cred just for having a unbelievable escape or being on a epic run.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
Not a easy thing to do considering you should never be given a noteriety point for the same thing more than once unless you do it in a new interesting and completely different way.

Never said it's easy - but it's fun. biggrin.gif
blakkie
QUOTE
Whether you could do so without even haven an N above 0 is an interesting debate.


I don't see it stated anywhere that you cannot have a negative Noteriety. It isn't particularly helpful doing an Intimidation check, but it still helps you (to a lesser degree than the Street Cred spent) when earning someone's trust...assuming that you handle all the signs and subtract the negative Noteriety (giving you a higher number of bonus dice than Street Cred alone).

This also helps your Public Awareness stay low. With negative Noteriety you can even carry a Street Cred into the double digits and theoretically remain a Nobody.

Allowing a negative Notoriety also gives meaning to this otherwise near pointless line at the top left of page 258 (there doesn't seem to be any canon way to have a negative Street Cred).

QUOTE
Awareness can never go below 0a nobody is still a nobody,
in or out of the shadows.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (blakkie)
I don't see it stated anywhere that you cannot have a negative Noteriety.

rotfl.gif
Xenith
Errr... I think negative notoriety is either PA or SC blakkie. rotate.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Not exactly... thats what makes this so interesting.

Of course, it's always nice to see that one tradition in SR never dies:
Any rules concerning reputation end up being an abomination. grinbig.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Xenith @ Sep 27 2005, 04:34 PM)
Errr... I think negative notoriety is either PA or SC blakkie.  rotate.gif

Absolutely not. Also note that the text explicitly states that you can not drop Street Cred below 0 with mods, and that result from the calculation of Public Awareness never drops below 0. But there is no such stipulation given for not dropping Notoriety below 0. Not when it says you can lower it with Street Cred, nor when calculating the starting Notoriety based on Qualitiies.
blakkie
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Not exactly... thats what makes this so interesting.

Of course, it's always nice to see that one tradition in SR never dies:
Any rules concerning reputation end up being an abomination. grinbig.gif

No, what makes it so interesting is that the system actually begins to make longterm sense once you see that the Notoriety range extends into the negative.
fistandantilus4.0
what, you f up so much that it takes a lot for anyone to take you seriously?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (blakkie)
No, what makes it so interesting is that the system actually begins to make longterm sense once you see that the Notoriety range extends into the negative.

That's a bit of a stretch, considering that it turns long term runners into ultimate boyscouts. wink.gif

Of course, that makes them the walking equivalent of Aztechnology - they can get away with genocide. grinbig.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (blakkie)
No, what makes it so interesting is that the system actually begins to make longterm sense once you see that the Notoriety range extends into the negative.

That's a bit of a stretch, considering that it turns long term runners into ultimate boyscouts. wink.gif

Of course, that makes them the walking equivalent of Aztechnology - they can get away with genocide. grinbig.gif

Not ultimate boyscouts, because boyscouts stick out. smile.gif More like the janitor at the plant that has been there 40 years but nobody knows his name, nobody ever thinks that it is odd that they don't know his name, nobody knows how long he has worked there, and nobody cares.

The ultimate unused, unnoticed furniture.
blakkie
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
what, you f up so much that it takes a lot for anyone to take you seriously?

No, you act so "professionally" that you are a ghost. Your shadow exploits are a whisper of a rumour. Yup, it does makes it harder to intimidate. But it also makes it easier to get someone to trust you. That's how the math works out.
snowRaven
You know, for once I think I'm in total agreement with blakkie here...

I haven't fully reviewed the mechanics of this, but it seems to me that the rep system only makes sense when allowing for a negative Notoriety.
blakkie
QUOTE (snowRaven)
You know, for once I think I'm in total agreement with blakkie here...

Well mark on the wall. wink.gif

The book probabaly should have made it clearer though, as it is a mental barrier that many aren't going to break through....until perhaps they make a character with the only Notoriety modifying Quality as Blandness or some such.

The hints of it being able to go negative aren't particularly obvious by just reading the rules, and there are no examples of negative notoriety given.
Azralon
If the rules explicitly declared the existence of negative Notoriety, I'd be more comfortable with what you're saying. For that matter, I easily see the uses of a negative Public Awareness but they specifically said that doesn't exist.

-----

Were I to design the system, I'd have "Street Cred" as a linear scale that extends into the positive and negative. If you're in the negatives, you're notorious and people trust you less. If you're in the positives, they trust you more. SC would fluctuate up and down based upon your personal actions and the actions of your crew. If you're constantly screwing up, your SC plummets. If you keep your nose clean and are reliable, it goes up.

Positive SC would assist with Etiquette. Negative SC would assist with Intimidation. Professionals and nice guys get to be all diplomatic; thugs and lowlife-types would rely on threats.

Then I'd have "Public Awareness" also on a positive & negative scale. It'd increase whenever you did something overt or otherwise significant; it'd decrease at a steady rate based on your downtime. So if you're out saving (or destroying) the world on a weekly basis, your PA will skyrocket.... but if you lay low long enough, people will start to forget about you or chalk up your exploits to rumors and street lore.

PA would represent the number of bonus dice someone could use to find out about you. If you're Mr. Popular with a 10 PA, then even the least-connected street trash has a chance to recognize you. If you're Mr. Shady with a -10 PA, then only the most well-informed people even have a chance to have heard your name.

I wouldn't need a third stat, as the published Notoriety would be already folded into my version of Street Cred.

-----

But hey, I paid for the RAW so I wouldn't have to spend the time developing and playtesting my own rules.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Sep 28 2005, 08:35 AM)
You know, for once I think I'm in total agreement with blakkie here...

Well mark on the wall. wink.gif

The book probabaly should have made it clearer though, as it is a mental barrier that many aren't going to break through....until perhaps they make a character with the only Notoriety modifying Quality as Blandness or some such.

The hints of it being able to go negative aren't particularly obvious by just reading the rules, and there are no examples of negative notoriety given.

You know after looking back I think blakkie is right here.

Course with anyone who knows your rep you're going to get a big pile o dice to add...afterall street cred - - noteriety (double negatives cancel out to make notieriety positive and adding both). So this is a interesting way of keeping your face out of the public eye, as long as you don't do things that wind up on the news. If you do, then your PA will still go up (depending on the GM ofcourse).
snowRaven
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 28 2005, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Sep 28 2005, 08:35 AM)
You know, for once I think I'm in total agreement with blakkie here...

Well mark on the wall. wink.gif

The book probabaly should have made it clearer though, as it is a mental barrier that many aren't going to break through....until perhaps they make a character with the only Notoriety modifying Quality as Blandness or some such.

The hints of it being able to go negative aren't particularly obvious by just reading the rules, and there are no examples of negative notoriety given.

You know after looking back I think blakkie is right here.

Course with anyone who knows your rep you're going to get a big pile o dice to add...afterall street cred - - noteriety (double negatives cancel out to make notieriety positive and adding both). So this is a interesting way of keeping your face out of the public eye, as long as you don't do things that wind up on the news. If you do, then your PA will still go up (depending on the GM ofcourse).

Yeah, and that would mark the True Professional - unknown, unseen, but almost worshipped by those 'in the know'.
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