Linked in from another poll about starting character power levels.

Keep in mind when answering that some people prefer to minmax characters while some people prefer a more balanced approach. Obviously the minmaxers are more likely to hit their head on the metaphorical advancement ceiling, so I suspect this poll will be skewed accordingly.

It is a bit ambivalent. Which is, i think, a good thing. Players who want to start as pros aren't disappointed. Players who want to start more on street level aren't disappointed. Since there is a discussion which statement is true, i think they got it right :D.

Personally, I agree: The system as presented lets you play however you want to play. That is, after all, the whole point.

I think the problem comes in when people get it in their heads that their particular playstyle is the "best" way, and therefore the only legitimate way. Anyone else who declares otherwise is accused of being shortsighted, because "Blah blah blah opinion blah preferences blah blah you're on crack but I'm not blah!"

But hey, it'll be interesting to see what the voting reveals in a few days.

no it doesn't, and no it isn't. there are no rules for playing a great dragon PC, or a leviathan PC. the point of a chargen system is to create characters who are balanced for the game world they're created for, and who are fun to play. my argument is that the PCs created by SR4 are unbalanced for the world they're created for.

Dragons & leviathans are balanced for the game world? C'mon, examples like that aren't useful to illustrate your point. I've seen you do better.

that is my point--dragons and leviathans aren't balanced to be characters in the game. that's why the SR4 chargen rules don't allow you to play them. my argument is that the SR4 chargen rules should also not allow you to play someone with world-class skill.

You mean they're too weak or something? I guess you have a point... but unlike DND, SR isn't about engaging you enemies in open combat. In DnD, your enemies laid traps and set about stacking the odds; in Shadowrun, you do this instead. I don't think the comparison is valid.

And if you ever want to take on a dragon, you could always get a tank or something.

As recently mentioned, that's a reflection of your personal preference and therefore cannot be argued to a logical conclusion. It's your opinion, and I'm okay with that up to the point where someone goes on a crusade for/against it.

Some people want to play world-class action heroes straight from the get-go. Just because you don't doesn't make the other people somehow "wrong." I hope you can understand that.

If you can, and my worries are for naught, then cool.

{Dons flame retardant armor}
I'm fine with the existing skill/attribute caps. Not exactly thrilled but okay. If I run a real campaign I'll end up lifting the skill cap.

I prefer the older method of graduated stat cost with the racial Limit and the racial Max. It meant the 1-dimensional players could happily grind away hundreds of karma trying to get their stat to the max level without much bang for their buck. But they would be quiet.

I think part of the issue may be time-sensitive. Over a longer period of time, those skillcaps are going to mean more than they do, say, for a troupe who plays once a week for a few months. I'm starting a new troupe (first game's tonight) which will play once a week until, y'know, we stop. If the game goes longer than, say, six months, I may consider slowly uncapping skills, then attributes. Maybe, one more point every few months, or until they're powerful enough, or something like that. This way, it encourages a variety of skills and abilities, but will allow me to keep the players from getting overwhelmingly powerful, especially in a short period of time. No one goes from gutterpunk errand boy with a gun to a respected and well-known professional street samurai in six months, game time.

Just remember to uncap skills for other NPCs, too. And uncap them higher than the PCs.

the reason it's my personal preference is that SR4 is supposed to be more 'street level'. bringing things back down to the gritty gutters. i fail to see how having world-class skills at chargen fits with that.

It doesn't. But then, if a GM is allowing it despite the obvious spirit of the new edition, then that reflects a certain type of group that wants to play a certain type of game. It's very easy for a GM to make that happen, and I see no problem with it. Though it's not my particular cup of tea. I like seeing PC parts scattered hither and yon.

"More street level" does not equate to "is street level."

Per Adam's conversion guide, SR3 characters are worth roughly 450 BP. Since SR4 characters are recommended to start with 400 BP, then MFB's statement holds true: Standard SR4 characters are indeed intended to be more street than SR3. They're just not actually approaching street until you build them at around 300 BPs.

Of course, even then, they might not be considered "street" since that label is pretty darn subjective.

(Oh, and your post was better phrased than I could have managed, Geekkake.)

if the GM has to houserule everything in order to make sure the game has the 'intended' feel, why have rules at all?

SR3 chars are more street, in my opinion, because they are much further from the upper limits in terms of skill and other factors.

It's not a house rule, as the RAW explicitly tells you what to do depending on the flavor you want. Note my book quote.

I'll let you alone, though, MFB. I'm not meaning to rag on you.

heh, see, that's another peeve of mine about SR4: the fact that the GM has to adjudicate so much. i really dislike game systems which require lots of maintenance to work. sure, it's not technically houseruling, since the book says "do whatever you want"... but it's a rule that's not specifically in the book, that only applies at your gaming table. it's really the same thing.

i don't mind being ragged on, honestly. i wouldn't be posting here if i did.

Heh, well said.

I honestly can't get my panties in a bunch about whether things are street or characters are world class, or any of that. The fact is that whatever the power level is, the player characters are the protagonists of the story and appropriate opposition will be scaled. How important the story is to the unfolding of the rest of the world is largely a matter of taste and actually somewhat outside the scope of the game system to define.

Ultimately powerful dudes can slug it out in mysterious islands that noone has ever heard of or given a damn about (like in Harlequin), and bumbling hippies can stumble through bar brawls that end up determining presidential elections. However hard core the players are relative to what could be out there, the opposition can be set to weaker, stronger, or even odd and the results of the players actions could determine the fate of the world or be lost in the torrent.

---

But I do object to the fact that a Hacker Adept can hit his practical maximum Hacking on 67 Karma and a Technomancer can get to the same place on... 391 Karma. I think that's an advancement flaw. In any game that a Technomancer comes into his own, the Hacker Adept will have long ago taken up some other task and reached his maximum in that. And then taken up a third thing and maximized that.

Something's out of scale. I think it's a matter of opinion if Technomancy is simply way too crazy expensive or the caps are too easy to reach. But something is out of scale.

-Frank

This particular rule, I don't have a problem with. It gives a default number of build points, describes the range of campaigns that it is meant for, then gives you examples of other types of campaigns, with numbers. So it's not just saying "The GM should make up what he wants" - it's more concrete than that, yet still flexible. And the SR3 build point system was made the same way - a variable number of points to let GMs set their own power level for char-gen.

But again, the problem with SR4 char-gen is that it is too easy to max out a character's specialty at char-gen, leaving nothing to do but generalize more after that. That's a design flaw.

True. If your group does not like it, it becomes the GMs responsibility to mantain game balance.

I like SR4 a lot better than SR3, but chargen is not balanced. I had to keep an eye on different players and not everybody is 100% happy.

Who had a flat Karma house-rule for chargen?

Cheers,

Max

My problem is partly MFB's-- the bar is set way too low. You should not be able to match the best of the best, right off the starting line. Even if you like a higher-powered game, the fact is that the GM cannot create anyone who's better than you as a challenge. And facing enemies who are tougher than you is part of the fun of the game.

The next problem I have is the abuseability of the system. It's got more holes in it than GURPS supers or Champions, and I once created a 100-point Champions character with 300 points worth of super powers. The skill and attribute caps would be papateable if they prevented abuses-- but they don't.

If you got a problem with the skill caps... just remove them, or put them higher. *shrug*

Bye
Thanee

Yeah, i don't see the problem too and did so in my games. Not that a char survived long enough to ever reach a skill cap, but at least their had the chance ;)

...

How? It'll cost him 110 Karma to get both his Cracking and Electronics skill groups up to six, and then you throw on the cost of initiation and raising his Magic, and the cost only goes up more.

Also, I'll link to this. It makes sense for shadowrunners to be good at something.

I fail to see the issue when you can change the amount BP's allowed.
At the end of the day, it is up to your group.

Rules aren't rules, they are 'guidelines' ;)


Anyway, just to lighten up te mood, here's this:

<Donut[AFK]> HEY EURAKARTE
<Donut[AFK]> INSULT
<Eurakarte> RETORT
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-RETORT
<Eurakarte> QUESTIONING OF SEXUAL PREFERENCE
<Donut[AFK]> SUGGESTION TO SHUT THE FUCK UP
<Eurakarte> NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
<Donut[AFK]> RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> ADDON RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> COUNTER-RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-COUNTER RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON
<Miles_Prower> RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES
<Eurakarte> WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
<Miles_Prower> ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS


regards

Bladepoet