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Which Firearm Group is the Most Versatile
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klinktastic
post Oct 30 2010, 02:57 AM
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So I'm proposing a hypothesis, that longarms are the most efficient skill point use if you are forced to select one firearm skill. Most people argue that pistols is the most well rounded, but I'm not sure why. Longarms give you access to shotguns, sporting rifles, and sniper rifles. Immediately, you'll notice that these weapons give you some great variety at both short, medium and long ranges.

Now, the one draw back that people will bring up is that well you can't just go around carrying a shotgun or rifle everywhere. Pistols excel because you can bring them anywhere (typically) and are thus more useful.

My counter to that is the T-250 Defiance, snub-nosed version. It's reduced size, with a concealed holster and chameleon coating makes it as effective to hide as a pistol, and it packs just as much punch, or greater against non-armored targets.

These are my main reasons to reject the logic that pistols should be the default firearm of choice. I really think the key being that the use of sporting rifles and keeping what are probably not high quality combat characters out of the thick of combat is very benefical as well. The range and flexibility of longarms makes the skill the most versatile firearm skill.
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ProfGast
post Oct 30 2010, 03:00 AM
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I'll throw in a vote for Automatics. Assuming you have sufficient RC, you can bring Machine Pistols, Submachine Guns OR Assault rifles aaaanywhere you want. All you're lacking is heavy armor piercing which you can more than make up for simply by using more bullets.
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Glyph
post Oct 30 2010, 03:09 AM
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It depends on the type of campaign. For more covert campaigns, pistols might be the primary ranged skill of choice, because it offers the widest variety of concealable weapons, from holdouts to tasers.

Otherwise, sure, long arms is versatile. You could say the same thing about automatics, though, with machine pistols taking over the pistols role. Keep in mind that the sawed-off shotgun and a machine pistol both have +2 concealability, which is worse than that of a heavy pistol.
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Karoline
post Oct 30 2010, 03:17 AM
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I've generally heard people say that automatics is the best, but I've always also been a fan of longarms. You get both the ultimate long range and high single shot damage of the sniper rifle, and the close combat power of the shotgun (And there is nothing in the rules that says sniper rifles can't be used in close combat). There are sawed off shotguns with better concealability without a major hit to range. And there are automatic shotguns, and nothing says you can't make a sniper rifle full auto with mods, though there are likely a ton of other things you'd likely want to put on it (Breakdown for sneaking into buildings for example).

Automatics are good because they are the easiest to get high damage on thanks to full auto being standard. Pistols are generally my favorite for non-combat types because of their extreme concealability, and with things like SnS out there, their low damage isn't such a big issue.

P.S. You should have put up a poll.
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klinktastic
post Oct 30 2010, 03:22 AM
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Ask, and ye shall receive. Complete with poll.
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ProfGast
post Oct 30 2010, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 29 2010, 05:17 PM) *
(And there is nothing in the rules that says sniper rifles can't be used in close combat).

Actually.
QUOTE (Sniper Rifles @ SR4A pg 319)
While sturdier than earlier models, sniper rifles in 2072 are still not designed for close-up combat. At the end of every turn in which the rifle is used in a running firefight (as opposed to a sniping situation), roll an Edge Test. For every Edge Test failed, the weapon incurs a -1 dice pool modifier until it is recalibrated with an Armorer + Logic (8, 1 minute) Extended Test. This modifier is doubled if the weapon is used in combat as a melee weapon or to defend from a melee attack.


While it's not actually forbidden it does cause problems after the fact. Better than nothing though.
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toturi
post Oct 30 2010, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 30 2010, 10:57 AM) *
My counter to that is the T-250 Defiance, snub-nosed version. It's reduced size, with a concealed holster and chameleon coating makes it as effective to hide as a pistol, and it packs just as much punch, or greater against non-armored targets.

I do not agree with this assessment. Concealed holster and chameleon coating are applicable to pistols (of all classes from holdouts to heavy) as well. Therefore we should only compare the base concealability. The short barreled T-250 Defiance is the most concealable of the shotguns. With a Concealability modifier of +2, it is still +2 more than a heavy pistol. Its damage (short barrel) is only as much as a heavy pistol with less ammo than most heavy pistols.

IMO, I would rate the firearms skills accordingly (Graded 1-5, with 5 being the best): Pistols 5, Automatics 4, Longarms 5.
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Karoline
post Oct 30 2010, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 29 2010, 10:24 PM) *
Actually.


While it's not actually forbidden it does cause problems after the fact. Better than nothing though.

Ah, that used to only apply to one particular rifle, didn't realize they'd changed it to work on all sniper rifles. Well, all the more reason to use a shotgun up close then.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 30 2010, 04:10 AM
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Definitely Automatics. More models across all categories (power, range, concealability, burst/auto), bigger clips, better RC, etc. And a couple come with grenade launchers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Obviously not as extreme in specific areas as sniper rifles or pistols, but I'd certainly say the *most* (not 'perfectly') flexible and/or well-rounded. The existence of one shotgun that can kinda be a heavy pistol, and a couple of automatic options, doesn't really stack up.
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klinktastic
post Oct 30 2010, 04:10 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 29 2010, 10:36 PM) *
I do not agree with this assessment. Concealed holster and chameleon coating are applicable to pistols (of all classes from holdouts to heavy) as well. Therefore we should only compare the base concealability. The short barreled T-250 Defiance is the most concealable of the shotguns. With a Concealability modifier of +2, it is still +2 more than a heavy pistol. Its damage (short barrel) is only as much as a heavy pistol with less ammo than most heavy pistols.

IMO, I would rate the firearms skills accordingly (Graded 1-5, with 5 being the best): Pistols 5, Automatics 4, Longarms 5.


That is obvious....I was pointing out that you can still have a concealable weapon from the Longarm category. The T-250 gives you concealability. Mossberg or other shotguns are great in close quarters. Snipers are the ultimate ranged weapon. Sporting rifles are underrated in my opinion. Most people get put off by the low ammo per clip, but a 0-100 short range is pretty nice. Not great for a 3+ IP street sam, but good for a 1 IP face character who has no business point blank in a fire fight.
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Marcus
post Oct 30 2010, 04:18 AM
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Automatics- Machine Pistols, SMGs and Assault Rifles. If you cant make one of those fit your needs your in the wrong fight.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Oct 30 2010, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 29 2010, 10:09 PM) *
It depends on the type of campaign. For more covert campaigns, pistols might be the primary ranged skill of choice, because it offers the widest variety of concealable weapons, from holdouts to tasers.

Otherwise, sure, long arms is versatile. You could say the same thing about automatics, though, with machine pistols taking over the pistols role. Keep in mind that the sawed-off shotgun and a machine pistol both have +2 concealability, which is worse than that of a heavy pistol.



That reminds me of something I like less about 4e, though I think it is more rules sound. The homogenization of weapons. I liked having some machine pistols that were highly concealable, while others had more ammo etc. It had issues where some weapons were the perfect weapon of that category, but I liked the wider range of difference sin weapons in a category. Still 4e is more rules sound in this regard, people are more free to use a wider variety of weapons instead of always going with the ingram smartgun because it was the best SMG in the game etc.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 30 2010, 05:33 AM
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Actually, you can 'saw off' a Machine Pistol to bring it down to 1, right? It'll be short-range, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I agree that SR4 could use a little more variation in the weapons (there are many models, but they're not always very *different*), but that's really a separate issue.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 30 2010, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 30 2010, 06:10 AM) *
Snipers are the ultimate ranged weapon.
Yes, they get maximum range, but when do you actually need more than 550m range? Additionally both weapon types can be equipped with scopes, or the characters have one in their eyes anyway, so range penlties rarely are an issue.

As for the damage and magazine capacity, at least if you compare their default firing modes, the Barrett isn't better than an Ares Alpha:
Barrett:
14 shots 9P AP -4 which could easily be converted to 10P AP-1. An FA Barret would be deadly, but then we're in the category of how machine guns should work.

Ares Alpha:
42 6P AP -1 shots, or 12 short bursts at 8P AP -1 or 7 long bursts at 11P AP -1. Additional RC will be needed though. Don't forget the possibility for wide bursts and suppressive fire.


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Thanee
post Oct 30 2010, 07:24 AM
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Firearms Group! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Bye
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Summerstorm
post Oct 30 2010, 07:47 AM
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Depends... if one allows for microgrenades (and/or SnS) in shotguns (and shotguns only), they clearly win the day. Otherwise you have only standart shotguns and long-range rifles in that class.

Pistols have the stealth-factor as well as some high damage entries and the always-good tasers.

Automatics... may be the best overall... but also the most boring.

And HEAVY weapons... Well, you get EITHER big explosions or a rain of lead... that is pretty versatile *g*, oh and the assault cannons double as pretty good sniper rifles too.

Hm, i can't decide. I think the REALLY most versatile is a combined heavy assault gun with underbarrel-whatever-you-need.

You know what? I choose heavy weapons. the only thing it does not have is stealth. but you have access to: Best single damage, best area effects, best AV, best range, best DV overall (automatic), highest supply of bullets. Hell even the pistol-shaped MGL-6 grenade pistol IS a heavy weapon (if i got it right).

And whatever you need more can be mounted underbarrel in some cases.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 30 2010, 07:56 AM
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If concealment is not an issue, heavy weapons are the best. As for sniping Assault Cannons, I'd prefer MMGs or HMGs. While they don't have such a high base damage, they are more versatile and at least with BF you can still call shots. Sniper King still is the gauss rifle.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 30 2010, 01:33 PM
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Summerstorm, also worst cost, worst stealth (concealability and silencing; no, you can't discount either, hehe), worst legality, worst usability…

Don't even mention Tasers as a point for Pistols, because Automatics has that all tied up with Stick-n-Shock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yes, there are a couple Pistols with BF out of the box, but there are a ton of Machine Pistols and other Automatics with FA out of the box.
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Summerstorm
post Oct 30 2010, 02:12 PM
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Yes, like i said: In everything EXCEPT stealth, heavy weapons just get the job done.

Legality is not an issue (Well, not REALLY, anyway). No matter if you are caught with a HMG or a Ares Alpha or a Hämmerli, you are going down (if you already shot someone). Yes, i know the heavies are mostly F, and most standard weapons are R.

And with the price: Well, in street-level campaigns, surely a valid point. But in most games the characters pimp their weapons into ten-thousand nuyen territory anyway, so the double price for the standard weapons don't have that much weight.

But it all comes down to WHAT you are doing. Heavy weapons are most of the time just inappropiate, as are nearly ALL rifles and similar big guns. Even IF you somehow are supposed to have one... it just draws too much attention. If you want to discreetly shoot somebody: Pistols... if you want to mess someone's shit up: Heavy weapons.

Longarms and automatics are just in the between *g*.

Just as you either want to punch somebody or carve your way through some mooks: Unarmed (or claws/knifes) or Claymore. The other stuff is just between those. Hehehe...

P. S. : Ah yes, and with the S-n-S, i really don't like how they are handled anyway. Thinking about limiting their power on low-caliber weapons, or outright only allow them for grenade launchers and shotguns. Just "feels" better. Or maybe making burst fire a non-issue by fixing their code no matter how many bullets per IP. But back to the weapons: Whatever automatics can do: Heavy weapons START at that point.
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klinktastic
post Oct 30 2010, 02:33 PM
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And that's why I think longarms are better. Snipers and sporting rifles can be discreet weapons, due to long range and high DV. Unfortunately, you'll need either 2 shooters or multiple IPs to take a target out in one turn, assuming they are wearing any sort of armor.

Burst firing SnS can be done in shotguns, so I don't really see how automatics have an edge there.

The only thing I like about auto's is high ammo per clip count and underslung grenade launchers.

Question though, the underbarrel grenade launchers, they use automatics skill to shoot or heavy weapons?
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Saint Hallow
post Oct 30 2010, 03:25 PM
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Can we get a breakdown on what "efficient" means on this poll/debate? Damage? Cost? Stealth? Or an Overall breakdown average?
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Karoline
post Oct 30 2010, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 30 2010, 10:33 AM) *
And that's why I think longarms are better. Snipers and sporting rifles can be discreet weapons, due to long range and high DV. Unfortunately, you'll need either 2 shooters or multiple IPs to take a target out in one turn, assuming they are wearing any sort of armor.

Why? You get two shots per IP.
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EKBT81
post Oct 30 2010, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 30 2010, 04:33 PM) *
Question though, the underbarrel grenade launchers, they use automatics skill to shoot or heavy weapons?


In SR4: Heavy weapons only, since SR4 did away with the possibility of defaulting to other skills. SR3 had a special rule that you could default to the skill of the weapon on which the launcher is mounted when using an underbarrel grenade launcher.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 30 2010, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 30 2010, 08:33 AM) *
Question though, the underbarrel grenade launchers, they use automatics skill to shoot or heavy weapons?


Under Barreled Granade launchers use the Heavy Weapons Skill to fire, not Automatics...

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd by EKBT81...
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 30 2010, 03:48 PM
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But, Summerstorm, that's exactly why Automatics are clearly more 'well-rounded' and/or 'flexible'. The question was not 'which category is more damaging?'. Automatics run the gamut from smallish to biggish, from suppressed to high-RC, from SA to FA, from 4P/-0 to 15P/-1, from 350¥ to 4000¥, from 4R to 20F… They can also have drum magazines, GV, foregrips, and HVAR (if you really want it).

I mean, I do understand the Heavy Weapons argument: 'Versatile? Well, I can kill anything, from children to vehicles to spirits!' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) In seriousness, Heavy does include bullets, grenades, rockets, missiles, mortars, and cannons. I just think that's still not as 'usefully versatile' as Automatics: the most options for the most people in the most situations.
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