So I'm proposing a hypothesis, that longarms are the most efficient skill point use if you are forced to select one firearm skill. Most people argue that pistols is the most well rounded, but I'm not sure why. Longarms give you access to shotguns, sporting rifles, and sniper rifles. Immediately, you'll notice that these weapons give you some great variety at both short, medium and long ranges.

Now, the one draw back that people will bring up is that well you can't just go around carrying a shotgun or rifle everywhere. Pistols excel because you can bring them anywhere (typically) and are thus more useful.

My counter to that is the T-250 Defiance, snub-nosed version. It's reduced size, with a concealed holster and chameleon coating makes it as effective to hide as a pistol, and it packs just as much punch, or greater against non-armored targets.

These are my main reasons to reject the logic that pistols should be the default firearm of choice. I really think the key being that the use of sporting rifles and keeping what are probably not high quality combat characters out of the thick of combat is very benefical as well. The range and flexibility of longarms makes the skill the most versatile firearm skill.

I'll throw in a vote for Automatics. Assuming you have sufficient RC, you can bring Machine Pistols, Submachine Guns OR Assault rifles aaaanywhere you want. All you're lacking is heavy armor piercing which you can more than make up for simply by using more bullets.

It depends on the type of campaign. For more covert campaigns, pistols might be the primary ranged skill of choice, because it offers the widest variety of concealable weapons, from holdouts to tasers.

Otherwise, sure, long arms is versatile. You could say the same thing about automatics, though, with machine pistols taking over the pistols role. Keep in mind that the sawed-off shotgun and a machine pistol both have +2 concealability, which is worse than that of a heavy pistol.

I've generally heard people say that automatics is the best, but I've always also been a fan of longarms. You get both the ultimate long range and high single shot damage of the sniper rifle, and the close combat power of the shotgun (And there is nothing in the rules that says sniper rifles can't be used in close combat). There are sawed off shotguns with better concealability without a major hit to range. And there are automatic shotguns, and nothing says you can't make a sniper rifle full auto with mods, though there are likely a ton of other things you'd likely want to put on it (Breakdown for sneaking into buildings for example).

Automatics are good because they are the easiest to get high damage on thanks to full auto being standard. Pistols are generally my favorite for non-combat types because of their extreme concealability, and with things like SnS out there, their low damage isn't such a big issue.

P.S. You should have put up a poll.

Ask, and ye shall receive. Complete with poll.

Actually.


While it's not actually forbidden it does cause problems after the fact. Better than nothing though.

I do not agree with this assessment. Concealed holster and chameleon coating are applicable to pistols (of all classes from holdouts to heavy) as well. Therefore we should only compare the base concealability. The short barreled T-250 Defiance is the most concealable of the shotguns. With a Concealability modifier of +2, it is still +2 more than a heavy pistol. Its damage (short barrel) is only as much as a heavy pistol with less ammo than most heavy pistols.

IMO, I would rate the firearms skills accordingly (Graded 1-5, with 5 being the best): Pistols 5, Automatics 4, Longarms 5.

Ah, that used to only apply to one particular rifle, didn't realize they'd changed it to work on all sniper rifles. Well, all the more reason to use a shotgun up close then.

Definitely Automatics. More models across all categories (power, range, concealability, burst/auto), bigger clips, better RC, etc. And a couple come with grenade launchers.

Obviously not as extreme in specific areas as sniper rifles or pistols, but I'd certainly say the *most* (not 'perfectly') flexible and/or well-rounded. The existence of one shotgun that can kinda be a heavy pistol, and a couple of automatic options, doesn't really stack up.

That is obvious....I was pointing out that you can still have a concealable weapon from the Longarm category. The T-250 gives you concealability. Mossberg or other shotguns are great in close quarters. Snipers are the ultimate ranged weapon. Sporting rifles are underrated in my opinion. Most people get put off by the low ammo per clip, but a 0-100 short range is pretty nice. Not great for a 3+ IP street sam, but good for a 1 IP face character who has no business point blank in a fire fight.

Automatics- Machine Pistols, SMGs and Assault Rifles. If you cant make one of those fit your needs your in the wrong fight.

That reminds me of something I like less about 4e, though I think it is more rules sound. The homogenization of weapons. I liked having some machine pistols that were highly concealable, while others had more ammo etc. It had issues where some weapons were the perfect weapon of that category, but I liked the wider range of difference sin weapons in a category. Still 4e is more rules sound in this regard, people are more free to use a wider variety of weapons instead of always going with the ingram smartgun because it was the best SMG in the game etc.

Actually, you can 'saw off' a Machine Pistol to bring it down to 1, right? It'll be short-range, though.

I agree that SR4 could use a little more variation in the weapons (there are many models, but they're not always very *different*), but that's really a separate issue.

Yes, they get maximum range, but when do you actually need more than 550m range? Additionally both weapon types can be equipped with scopes, or the characters have one in their eyes anyway, so range penlties rarely are an issue.

As for the damage and magazine capacity, at least if you compare their default firing modes, the Barrett isn't better than an Ares Alpha:
Barrett:
14 shots 9P AP -4 which could easily be converted to 10P AP-1. An FA Barret would be deadly, but then we're in the category of how machine guns should work.

Ares Alpha:
42 6P AP -1 shots, or 12 short bursts at 8P AP -1 or 7 long bursts at 11P AP -1. Additional RC will be needed though. Don't forget the possibility for wide bursts and suppressive fire.

Firearms Group!

Bye
Thanee

Depends... if one allows for microgrenades (and/or SnS) in shotguns (and shotguns only), they clearly win the day. Otherwise you have only standart shotguns and long-range rifles in that class.

Pistols have the stealth-factor as well as some high damage entries and the always-good tasers.

Automatics... may be the best overall... but also the most boring.

And HEAVY weapons... Well, you get EITHER big explosions or a rain of lead... that is pretty versatile *g*, oh and the assault cannons double as pretty good sniper rifles too.

Hm, i can't decide. I think the REALLY most versatile is a combined heavy assault gun with underbarrel-whatever-you-need.

You know what? I choose heavy weapons. the only thing it does not have is stealth. but you have access to: Best single damage, best area effects, best AV, best range, best DV overall (automatic), highest supply of bullets. Hell even the pistol-shaped MGL-6 grenade pistol IS a heavy weapon (if i got it right).

And whatever you need more can be mounted underbarrel in some cases.

If concealment is not an issue, heavy weapons are the best. As for sniping Assault Cannons, I'd prefer MMGs or HMGs. While they don't have such a high base damage, they are more versatile and at least with BF you can still call shots. Sniper King still is the gauss rifle.

Summerstorm, also worst cost, worst stealth (concealability and silencing; no, you can't discount either, hehe), worst legality, worst usability…

Don't even mention Tasers as a point for Pistols, because Automatics has that all tied up with Stick-n-Shock. Yes, there are a couple Pistols with BF out of the box, but there are a ton of Machine Pistols and other Automatics with FA out of the box.

Yes, like i said: In everything EXCEPT stealth, heavy weapons just get the job done.

Legality is not an issue (Well, not REALLY, anyway). No matter if you are caught with a HMG or a Ares Alpha or a Hämmerli, you are going down (if you already shot someone). Yes, i know the heavies are mostly F, and most standard weapons are R.

And with the price: Well, in street-level campaigns, surely a valid point. But in most games the characters pimp their weapons into ten-thousand nuyen territory anyway, so the double price for the standard weapons don't have that much weight.

But it all comes down to WHAT you are doing. Heavy weapons are most of the time just inappropiate, as are nearly ALL rifles and similar big guns. Even IF you somehow are supposed to have one... it just draws too much attention. If you want to discreetly shoot somebody: Pistols... if you want to mess someone's shit up: Heavy weapons.

Longarms and automatics are just in the between *g*.

Just as you either want to punch somebody or carve your way through some mooks: Unarmed (or claws/knifes) or Claymore. The other stuff is just between those. Hehehe...

P. S. : Ah yes, and with the S-n-S, i really don't like how they are handled anyway. Thinking about limiting their power on low-caliber weapons, or outright only allow them for grenade launchers and shotguns. Just "feels" better. Or maybe making burst fire a non-issue by fixing their code no matter how many bullets per IP. But back to the weapons: Whatever automatics can do: Heavy weapons START at that point.

And that's why I think longarms are better. Snipers and sporting rifles can be discreet weapons, due to long range and high DV. Unfortunately, you'll need either 2 shooters or multiple IPs to take a target out in one turn, assuming they are wearing any sort of armor.

Burst firing SnS can be done in shotguns, so I don't really see how automatics have an edge there.

The only thing I like about auto's is high ammo per clip count and underslung grenade launchers.

Question though, the underbarrel grenade launchers, they use automatics skill to shoot or heavy weapons?

Can we get a breakdown on what "efficient" means on this poll/debate? Damage? Cost? Stealth? Or an Overall breakdown average?

Why? You get two shots per IP.

In SR4: Heavy weapons only, since SR4 did away with the possibility of defaulting to other skills. SR3 had a special rule that you could default to the skill of the weapon on which the launcher is mounted when using an underbarrel grenade launcher.

Under Barreled Granade launchers use the Heavy Weapons Skill to fire, not Automatics...

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd by EKBT81...

But, Summerstorm, that's exactly why Automatics are clearly more 'well-rounded' and/or 'flexible'. The question was not 'which category is more damaging?'. Automatics run the gamut from smallish to biggish, from suppressed to high-RC, from SA to FA, from 4P/-0 to 15P/-1, from 350¥ to 4000¥, from 4R to 20F… They can also have drum magazines, GV, foregrips, and HVAR (if you really want it).

I mean, I do understand the Heavy Weapons argument: 'Versatile? Well, I can kill anything, from children to vehicles to spirits!' In seriousness, Heavy does include bullets, grenades, rockets, missiles, mortars, and cannons. I just think that's still not as 'usefully versatile' as Automatics: the most options for the most people in the most situations.

The question was which weapon skill is most versatile, and automatics clearly fits that bill. Concealable, close, short, long ranges, semi automatic, burst fire, full auto, it covers the full gamut of what might be needed.

It's pretty obvious: burst *and* FA are available on a huge array of Automatics, from Machine Pistols to Assault Rifles. Better concealability on one end, better range on the other, better RC in all cases, and there are only a handful of BF shotguns to begin with (only 2 FA).

My guess is he is referring to the need to use a simple action in order to use the scope or vision mag.

"Image magnification equipment allows the character to “zoom in” on
the target, reducing the Range category to Short, and thus eliminating
any range modifiers. The character must take a Take Aim action
(p. 148) to “lock onto” the target (the Take Aim does not apply a +1
aiming bonus for this purpose, unless additional Take Aim actions are
made). As long as the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions. Image
magnification can be used in conjunction with a laser sight or smartlinked
weapon (but not both)."

So assuming an ambush and you wait until the person isn't moving you should still get 2 shots the first IP since the first take aim action is happening out of the combat turn. Though I guess Krav Maga to the rescue yet again, I don't even know why they have other martial arts in the book.

Because Krav Maga is not the "Be All , End All" Martial Art...
IS it nice? Yes, But there are many others that I often choose over Krav Maga...

Pistols aren't versatile... they're small, easily portable weapons whose primary advantage over any other category of weapon is small size. In my mind, a pistol is what you use to fight your way to a bigger gun if you're in any kind of serious shit. The reason they're so popular in SR is that there's plenty of places you can't BRING a bigger gun, and daily life walking down the (downtown) street is a place where a concealed piece is fine, a rifle over your shoulder is not.

Longarms is a well-named skill... it's the use of long arms (as opposed to somewhat concealable ones). Whether it's heavy hit at close range or long, you can find a gun in the category that'll do it, but what you don't get is a lot of variety in size, a sawed-off shotgun being about the smallest choice on the list.

Automatics won't give you as much punch at longer ranges as long arms, and doesn't have guns that are as concealable as pistols, but it covers both of those categories passably well and definitely gives longarms a run for it's money for the close-range destruction capabilities. Where I would say it shines is in the part where it can actually overlap multiple categories with one weapon... a machine pistol or SMG can be both reasonably concealable AND ruin someone's day at close range, an assault rifle is brutal at close range and can also serve out to several hundred meters as a passable marksman's rifle; properly stabilized and with drums or dual magazines it can stand in for an LMG as well.

Heavy Weapons is really not something that can compare the same way. It's "versatile" in that you get machineguns, launchers, and assault cannons (AKA seriously scary sniper rifles) in one skill, but asides from a couple of freak weapons like the grenade launcher pistol you don't have anything particularly portable.

So, for versatile, I'm throwing the vote to Automatics, as it's a skill that has variety of weapons suited for pretty much any task right out of the box. Somewhat extensive weapon modification will let Longarms handle those same tasks (sawed off shotguns, autofire-capable rifles, etc), but they tend to be bulkier and have smaller capacities. If that's not an issue (hey, 30+ round drums of 12 gauge aren't small) or you like Longarms in general, there's nothing that says you can't take 'em and make 'em work for the job... I'm just of the opinion that the Automatics skill covers a wider range of more flexible weapons.

Gunnery.





-k

People choose things for a lot of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with effectiveness. Sure Krav Maga isn't the best punching martial art, but punching generally sucks unless you really build towards it. Krav Maga is the best overall martial art since it basically has nothing to do with martial arts. It is the kill people better with guns, art. Which for 95% of the runners is the most important thing you can gain from arsenals martial art rules.

I can Agree with what you said... as I indicated, Krav maga is a good Martial Art, and is really good if you are only looking to improve your Fireamrs potential. But still, there are a lot of things that are much better, especially if you are using the Martial Arts Maneuvers, which do not work particularly well for most firearms related tests...

Lately I have felt it is longarms.

You get more bang per bullet, and can do just about everything that isn't discreet with them.

Which is, nothing.

Just kidding. But that *is* the definition of 'not the most versatile'.

Who cares about IPs when using a sniper rifle... you are far away and things are not hectic usually.

BTW, sniper rifles are anything, but not discreet... try to get those smuggled into a protected area.

Bye
Thanee

Well... Sniper Rifles are indeed discreet, in that you do not have to penetrate the target area if you have LOS to the area from a distance... At that point, it is unlikely you will be detected (If you are a GOOD sniper anyways) before you start shooting things, and even then, it may take a while for them to locate you (and a GOOD Sniper will have moved by that point anyways)...

But Sniper Rifles are definitely not very versatile at all...

Fortunately we are debating firearm skills not specific weapons. If you were to pick a specific, most versatile weapon, Ares Alpha will win handsdown.

One thing I like to do is give a character a pistol skill, then focus on longarms. Longarms can fill the auto fire gap, and the option of shotgun chokes could possibly be useful. In a roleplaying sense, learning longarms is easier to justify than automatic weaponry, and easier to acquire.

I think it all comes down to preference and what you are going for.

For some reason I always consider what is an average weapon of my opposition, in case I need to use their weaponry after I defeat them. That and concealabilty are the only reason I go pistols at all. The pistol is a back up side arm type deal.

For fun, look at the ammo on smgs. (Ak-97 carbine has a 30 rnd capacity) The Remington 990 has a capacity of 8. In order to achieve a dmg value similar to a longarm you need to fire a burst. So that 30 rnd magazine is essentially a 10 rnd when you think of it that way. I'd rather fire one ex-explosive round than 3 per turn any day

That seems silly until you think of your payout for a run. Less overhead is more profit. I hate earning 1,500 dollars to spend 700 on ammo.

I would concur that Longarms has the gun for every occasion, except perhaps going into a smart AA joint. Which is why the backup skill of pistols with a spec is always good.

I think one really nice thing about Longarms is the plausible legality: So, I have a Shotgun in my car, I go hunting. YES, I also need that dual clip semi-auto Mannlicher, do you know what dangerous critters are out there in the forest? At that point, even if I don't have a license to carry the gun openly, a simple social skill check will get me past the rent-a-cop. "I'm sorry, I should have put it back in the box, I know. What's the fine?". This is what I've always done throughout my SR history.

And the increase in firepower, especially in RANGE from a pistol is just huge. There is just no comparison. In SR3 this was arguably more important, but even so: 100m close range is just totally sweet.

The problem is that, again, 'every occasion except stealth' is an insane statement. Those occasions are predominant.

And if the GMs are letting you ignore the equipment rules, that's not really an argument for the *gun*.
--

Squinky, I don't think you're wrong to point out that the bullets are stronger, but I think you're overstating the case. While SMGs and Shotguns have the same ranges, the point of the SMG is that you *can* fire a burst, either Narrow or Wide. That's versatility, not limitation. You can also go to Long or Full bursts, so the SMG has a damage range of 5P/-0 to 14P/-0. The 990 is stuck at 7P/-1.

Now, that SMG is +4 Conceal, while the shotgun isn't even on the Concealability table (maybe +8?). Against something more the same size (AR), the DV lineup is 6P/-1 (i.e., a measly 1 point) to 15P/-1 (again forgetting Wide bursts), versus 7P/-1.

Now, if you're firing a lot of expensive ammo, you're absolutely right that it's a concern. But, if your primary concern is actually being able to kill your enemies before they cause expensive injuries, damage, etc., then you still want the automatic. At most, you're spending an extra 400¥ or so—nothing.

I hear you, but you can also fire many shotguns in burst fire and full auto. And the damage would be pretty nice compared to that smg. Course, you can't hide it well on your person. Pretty much the clincher there

Again, machine pistols are pretty weak, and are overshadowed, in my opinion by the T-250 short barreled version. Anyway, I'm glad that people feel the same way I do. I knew that there was going to be some resistance to the concept. But I think that Brainpiercing brings up a great point. Shotguns and Sporting Rifles are pretty common place. I mean, you can probably get real licenses, not fakes to personally own them. And no one is going to question why you are carrying them in your vehicle. You might have trouble getting them in a building, but that's a different story. The Rugar 100 and Rem 990 are both availability 4R, with a soft meaning even though they are technically restricted, they are so avaliable you could easily con a rent a cop into believing you're no harm. Also, disposable weapons are very nice. You can just use it, drop it, and forget about it. Wouldn't want to do that with your heavily mod'ed automatics weapons.

Autos are pretty good, but they are all basically the same guns in each of the categories Mach Pistols, SMGs, or Assault Rifles. No variety.

What? I mean seriously... do you not notice the voting where there are more votes for Automatics than for all the other weapon classes put together? or are you just happy that there are some other people who think Longarms are the most versatile?

And don't get me wrong, I love Longarms, and I think they're a great set but most versatile? Nah.

There are plenty of disposable weapons in the machine pistol/smg lines. And the AK assault rifle Carbine/Assault rifle are known for their personal resilience even as off-the-shelf unmodded gear.


I don't even know where you're getting that from. Uzi's, Steyrs, the list goes on there are tons of different brands, and tons of different loadouts. Furthermore, the modular weapons are all listed primarily under Automatics. What do you mean 'no variety'?

I will grant you that it's probably easier to talk off a Sporting Rifle or a Shotgun if you're caught with one, but for all the rest of the points it's like you're only accepting evidence that agrees with your point of view and ignoring or pointedly handwaving away all else. Or jumping to conclusions that I simply cannot track where you got them from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb_G2qqg7I





-k

Actually, you can fire like 2 shotguns in BF/FA, not 'many'.

Arsenal Weapon mode rules my friend

@ProfGast - No offense, but your hostility is not appreciated. You add absolutely nothing to the conversation. Thanks for the waste of 15 seconds of my life.

You have to mod them, Squinky. Certainly you *can*, but you also *have to*. In which case, you might be trading 4 of your 6 mod slots, and you're adding a 20F mod to your 'plausibly legal' gun. Even if you start with a BF shotgun (and of course you should!), that's still a precious mod slot, and you have fewer RC options, and you have double recoil penalties.

Shotguns are either extra-strong, unconcealable SMGs, or really short-range ARs. They can definitely have their uses, but I don't see them as winning the 'overall versatility' prize.

klinktastic, the T-250 'pistol' version is 5P, SA, 5(m); that just doesn't beat machine pistols.

I haven't slugged through the two pages of responses, but I voted for Automatics simply because you have a wider array of weapons available (pistol, SMG, assault rifle) than Longarms (rifle, shotgun [fat rifle], or sniper rifle) or pistols (Heavy, Light, Holdout, or taser) and because the obviously much more flexible weapon skill wasn't listed - Gunnery. You take a taser and mount it - gunnery. Take an assault rifle and mount it - gunnery. Take a sniper rifle and mount it - gunnery. A laser gun mounted? Gunnery. A crossbow? Gunnery. A flamethrower? Gunnery again.