Well... per the RAW (Already Quoted)... Glass and Mirrors ARE opaque, and block line of sight on the astral...
So, No Ambiguity on that count anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Actually, mirrors reflect astral sight, how else would Mage Sight Goggles work?

Mage Sight Goggles do not work in Astral Space... they are Physical Augmentation to Normal Sight, and work via a Fiber-OPTIC cable, there are NO Mirrors in a pair of Mage Sight Goggles... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Also, On the Physical, Mirrors alter your Line of Sight, allowing you to do things like look around a corner and cast spells...

But Not indirect spells, they explode when they hit the mirror.

That's the thing, Tymeaus. Glass is supposed to be opaque, but that bit you quoted specifically differentiates between transparent and opaque objects, and says 'hinders visibility'. It's very vague, and annoying.

Fiber optic cable uses the same physics as mirrors do. If you can cast spells through mage sight goggles you can cast spells through mirrors.

That's true. It's also true that Astral Perception doesn't work with either, so you're both right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You are confusing casting a spell using regular sight and casting a spell while shifting your vision to Astral Perception. You can cast a spell without using Astral Perception to see your target... Like casting stun bolt on the streetsam that is about to cut you in half... That is how Mage Sight goggles work. They remain solely in the physical realm and do not cross into Astral.

Mirrors don't reflect astral sight.

They reflect normal sight, and can be used to target spells physically, but not on the astral.



-k

Well Said... SO much better than my lame attempt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

can you cast indirect spells through magegoggles? or would the spell explode in your face?

the description of indirect spells is that it travels down the mystical link formed by your vision and it is not reflected by mirrors/windows but instead would explode on them.

You may Cast ANY SPELLS through Mage Sight Goggles per the rules (It is not ambiguous at all, actually), as long as you are physically poresent and are not in the Astral... Same with a FiberOptic Security Setup (Cannot remember the name of that thing off the top of my head)...

You can cast any spell sure. But indirect spells manifest physically and leave your body and fly to the target. If you are in a closed security office looking at the target through fiber optic cables the fireball wont get very far. Mage sight goggles should work fine but you'd have to put your hand or something around the corner kind of like a smartgun shooting around a corner.

The rules do not agree with you though... they make no difference between it originating at your point (for actual casting with natural senses) or from the end point of the Mage Sight Goggles or Fiber Optic Security System... in the case of the system, it manifests from that end point (much like putting your hand around the corner for Smartlink, using your analogy), not your own eyes (or whatever)

Regardless of which is 'true', it's obviously a point that has to be accepted so that the game world is functional as expected: Indirect spells originate at the 'sight end'.

You *could* dramatically change that element by ruling that no Indirect spells work with Mage Sight, but that's a deliberate change.

Indeed...

The fluff in previous editions describes fireballs erupting from the very walls of a mage-sight-protected facility.

Presumably if you examine the walls in question, you'd see the end terminals of the cables.



-k

Presumably... of course, it is at a -6 or more to the Perception roll...

In previous editions fireballs were effectively direct spells not indirect. Technically they were combat spells and indirect spells were manipulation spells. I don't really understand why they took out the direct style spell with elemental effects but they did.

And since, PG 204 SR4a indirect combat spells says this, "Indirect Combat spells generate a spell construct at the point of origin (the caster) which travels
down the mystic link to the chosen target (see Choose a Target, p. 183)," I think it is a bit odd to claim the end of the fiber optic cable is the origin point of the spell.

Yet that is how the rules are used... Fiber optic cables extend the Point of Origin, as the Fiber Optic cable is part of the caster for all intents and purposes...

and yet they specifically say that mirrors/windows do not reflect the spell, but instead detonate it.

Which makes it even weirder.

I have yet to read where a Fiber optic cable, in game, is a bunch of mirrors... can you point that out to me?

It is effectively 'windows and mirrors', though. The point is pretty obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's a mistake (as always) to attempt to use logic with Shadowrun, especially for magic. Either you allow it to work (as most people expect) or you don't (which will affect everyone who uses Indirect spells; i.e., no one). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Choose, it's all arbitrary.

Seeing as how The book says you can use Mage Sight Goggles and Fiber Optic Security Systems to cast any spell, I think it is pretty cut and dried as far as I am concerned... I do not care what Real Life is in this regard (as you said above), because it so obviously works... Why stress over it at that point?

Where does it claim that? All fiber optics say is it gives line of sight. It does not necessarily give line of effect though. I have line of sight to a person behind a window, I do not have line of effect.

All fiber optic systems in Arsenal Pg 66 say is this, "A character plugged into a mage sight system has line of sight
on whatever area is on the other end of the fiber optic cable she’s
accessing at the moment. Since mage sight fiber optic cables can
extend up to 2,500 meters, a mage sight network can greatly extend
the range of a character’s line of sight. A security magician can
cast spells at intruders and provide spell defense for security forces
within reach of the network without fear of reprisal, because magicians
on the other end of the fiber optic cable cannot see her."

There may be a rule I am missing, but I have not found one that says fiber optic changes the point of orgin on spells.