Not exactly. It's not a matter of skills vs. attributes but rather high ratings vs. low ratings and BP vs. Karma. First off, BP is worth more than Karma, generally speaking. When you're paying for things with BP all incremental improvements are just a flat cost. The cost for bumping a 4 to a 5 costs the same as going from a 1 to a 2. With karma, the cost is the new rating times a multiplier, so things get more expensive the higher you climb. So if you're really looking at getting the most dice for the least points, then ideally any skill or attribute you want at a 4+ is something you'll buy with BP and anything you intend to just keep at a 1-3 should be purchased with Karma. Specializations are also something that ideally you wait until you're in play to purchase since it costs either 2 bp or 2 karma, and as I said earlier, bp is otherwise worth more.

Ultimately though, the point of having dice at all is so you can get through the run with your hide mostly intact. If buying something at a 1 or a 2 with a specialization is going to give you a useful pool* and is likely to really help the team, then you can buy it with a clear conscience. That goes double if you're talking about a skill that cannot be defaulted like Hardware. I've taken Hardware: 1 on a Hermetic Magician before just because I already had a Logic of 7 and nobody else on the 3 man team knew how to slice a maglock. In theory, it would have been cheaper to get it later. In practice, I got us into a warehouse and picked up a "right skills, right time" karma award that helped offset the cost anyway. Being competent has a way of evening things out.


*What constitutes a useful pool tends to vary a lot since the game often works via opposed tests and some skills have a lot more modifiers than others do. Here's how I tend to value pools (note that this is all after modifiers): 5 dice means you should be able to at least help on teamwork tests without glitching. A 7 means you have a decent shot at performing quite a few tasks on your own, and anything above that is pretty good. In general, I don't bother paying for a die unless it helps gets me to around 5 or 7 dice with common modifiers, both good and bad, taken into account.

My only character with wires (from MBW) didn't start with skillsofts, just too expensive.

As to strength, Boost Strength and a katana/monafilament sword will likely give 6S, which while not great, isn't horrid.

If he takes blades at 6, specialises and slaps 2 points of Increase Blades on top, he should be able to do some damage.

Rough attempt at adept hacker:

Human
BOD 4, AGI 4 (6), REA 3 (4), STR 1, CHA 3, INT 3, LOG 4, WIL 5, Edge 5, Magic 5 (4)

Qualities: -35 points of flaws, no positive qualities (not really needed)

Cyber: Math CPU (+2 to E-War), Muscle Toner 2, Sleep Reg (stay up late cracking software), Cybergland (for IP adding combat drugs), PuSHeD (+1 to logic skills - basically computer skill group), Reflex Recorder - Skill Group - Cracking (+1 to hack, cyberwarfare, and e-war).

Magic 4 points: 1.5 points for Improved Reflexes 1 (+1 IP & +1 REA), 1 point for Improved Longarms 2 (+2 to longarms use), .75 points for Improved Hacking 3 (+3 to hacking), and .75 points for Improved Cyberwarfare 3 (+3 to cyberwarfare)

Skills:
Cracking Group 4
Electronics Group 4
Longarms (Snipers) 4/6

Equipment: Tricked out commlink in private mode, then a crappy commlink for public use. All common programs at 6, all hacking programs at 5 (I think availability is limited to 5 out the gate right?)

Hacking: 5 (program rating) + 4 (skill) + 1 (recorder) + 3 (adept power) = 13 dice, 15 in VR
E-War: 5 (program rating) + 4 (skill) + 1 (recorder) + 2 (Math CPU) = 12 dice, 14 in VR
Cyberwar: 5 (program rating) + 4 (skill) + 1 (recorder) + 3 (adept power) = 13 dice, 15 in BR
Longarms (sniper rifle): 6 (agility) + 4 (skill) + 2 (specialization) + 2 (adept power) = 14 dice

Generic Run Concept: Get to sniper spot, pop cram (will last 8 hours), just AR to hack on the fly with 3 IPs and support with sniper fire as needed. If needed, you can go VR hot sim for +2 bonus on matrix skills and another IP if the matrix situation requires. If you can't use snipers for the mission, get some shotguns for close up work, recommend a snub nosed T-250 and a SFAS 22 or Mossberg. This guy won't be very durable, but can provide hacking and shooting.

Or you could forget strength and just roll with a stun baton (6s electric damage regardless of strength). Also it has reach 1 which is nice.

How much Edge does that build have?

Opps sorry about that, it would have 5 edge and 5 magic, reduced to 4 due to 'wares.

Editted the generic character sheet above. Also, you can save some cash by not getting as many programs. I'd also hold off on an agent, which you can build a custom one later, or just go cheap, and get a agent 3 that is limited to scanning and analyzing.

Also, there isn't many BPs left after that. I would skimp on extra gear and stuff, you can hack to steal a ride in game. I'd recommend some extra points into some stealth, influence, and athletics skill groups if possible. But you're going to have some trade offs. Personally, I don't like spending a lot of BPs on cash because cash comes easier than karma in game play. I'd rather have more skills to start.

Did you make an adept hacker with the Adept quality? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I've got the SR4, and I'm not sure what the DM is using, so I'll get back to you on if it's the SR4 or SR4A. Would a Technomancer be less cash intensive than a standard Hacker? Perhaps a Technomancer/SS would be a more mechanically sound way to build my concept?



This sounds pretty good, but a couple of questions and concerns: why spend the BP for Magic 5 when it's just going to drop to 4 due to essence loss? The only other problems I'd have with this build are that my GM doesn't want us to specialize in sniping, and I'm still not sure that an Adept is the way I want to go. Part of that is concept, though it could certainly be adapted to fit magical ability, and the second is my GM isn't sure he wants a lot of magic in our group. But if it's the best way to build him, then I could certainly go that route.

Edit:


Did you mean with or without?

And one more thing concerning going the Adept route: if I have 'wares with a non-round essence cost (i.e. 2.4) would I have a maximum of 4 magic or 3.6? If so how would that work?

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohnny: Nov 7 2010, 08:34 PM

Magic loss rounds down to a whole number. In other words, 2.1 Essence loss still makes you lose three points of Magic. So if you do go that route, you want to get as close to a point of Essence as you can - if you are losing a point of Magic from it, it should be worth it. On the other hand, if you want to buy some more expensive stuff later, 2.1 Essence loss means you can get 0.90 Essence worth of stuff without losing any more Magic.

The adept build needs to have the actual adept quality, as has already been pointed out. Also, skill improvements are limited to skill x 1.5, so those two improved abilities can only be 2, not 3.

Technomancers are not very good if you are doing any kind of hacker/something else builds. They have an entire extra set of skills that they need, as well as complex forms, in addition to requiring good mental stats all around (since they are all used to create the technomancer's virtual persona). What it all adds up to, is that technomancers can usually hack, period, with perhaps the bare minimum of skills needed to get by in other areas.

Techno's run out of BPs to use on stats, since you are limited to 200 points. Also, you need at add another skill group: tasking. Techos use their mental attributes for their matrix stats, so needing to have high physical and high mental stats just doesn't work out well.

If you wanted to go with a cyber sam/hacker, heres a rough concept:

Human
BOD 2 ( 8 )
AGI 1 ( 8 )
REA 4 (5 )
STR 1 (4 )
CHA 3
INT 4
LOG 4
WIL 5
EDGE 5

Qualities: -35 negatives, Born Rich (for 60 bps of cash), Biocompat (cyber), Blackmarket Pipeline

Wares:
Math CPU
Synapse Booster
PuSHeD
Skill Recorder Group (Cracking)
Sleep Regulator
2 Full Arms w/ Custom body 3, custom agi 3, armor 2, body 4, agi 4 (arms have body 10, agility 10, strength 3, and armor 2)
2 Full Arms w/ Custom body 3, custom agi 3, custom str 2, armor 2, body 3, strenght 2, agi 4 (legs have body 9, agi 10, strength 7, and armor 2)

All the limbs have room to add extra goodies in later. Recommending nanohive, grip feet, hydralic jacks (for jumping) or skimmer disks.

Gear: pretty much the same, but less hacking softwares because of the synapse booster is so expensive.

Skill:
Cracking Group 4
Electonrics Group 4
Autos (SMGs) 4/6

Hacking & Cyberwar: 4 (skill) + 5 (software rating) + 1 (skill recorder) = 10 dice, 12 in VR
E-War: 4 (skill) + 5 (software) + 1 (skill recorder) + 2 (Math CPU) = 12 dice, 14 in VR
SMGs: 10 (cyberarms' agility) + 4 (skill) + 2 (specialization) + 2 (smartlink) = 18 dice

Out of the box, this character has 8/8 armor. Ridiculous physical and mental stats. Definitely have some left over points for various other skill groups like Athletics and Stealth. With agility of 8, defaulting on most physical skills isn't horrible. Recommending to get athletics group fairly high, then specialize gymnastics with "dodge". Don't forget you can wear additional body armor and it stacks with your cyberlimp armor.

Resonance is also linked to Essence, so Technomancer/Sam isn't gonna work.

You could specialise in any weapon skill you liked, you wouldn't have to stick with longarms at all. If I put a build together, it'd be Blades(Swords). A firearm skill is probably a better option but your subtopic says swordsman, so...

As to buying the magic, with (upto) 1 point of essence loss, you'd lose 1 point of magic, so it's whatever you buy minus whatever you lose through cyber/bio. As to the rounding question, you lose magic in full points so in your example it'd be max of 3.

From the looks of it, yes he did (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If anyone brought that cybered character to my table, I'd assault cannon with extreme prejudice.

Sorry, I read base skill x 1.5 to be 4 x 1.5 = 6, so 3 for each seems fine to me. If I am reading it incorrectly, then you can drop both those to 2, and take improved physical skill gymnastics (as a replacement for dodge).

Techno's make good hackers and good riggers, not just hackers. They are decent at doing the hacker, rigger, face combo.

Yes sorry, the spread sheet I use don't include adept in the qualities section. But inherently to be an adept, you have to take the quality.

sorry about that

wow triple post.....

Reflex recorders work for physical and combat skills only. Logic-related skills can be boosted by PuSHeD (which the build already has) or by an encephalon. Both of which are pricey, but give a bonus to all Logic-related skills. Cerebral booster isn't as good, since it only raises Logic, which is not used for most Matrix tests (it would help with things such as programming).

/cry - Oh well, throw that one. Saves you some cash for a nano hive I guess (for the cyber sam hacker at least).

Yeah, he's got cyber limbs, which would make it a lot easier. A nanohive is something that either costs a ton of Essence, or a smidge of capacity.

And a called shot to the meat parts is going to have metal limbs flying everywhere .

Fortunately, the OP doesn't want cyberlimbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He said the magic word...optimization

Also, he said he hadn't imagined using cyberlimbs, but I'm sure with the benefits it's something to consider. Its not like the guy is running around naked, if he's wearing body armor over his chest and a helmet, I doubt anyone is going to call shots to the chest. That's pretty unrealistic. Metagaming, someone might do that, but realistically, no is going to do that, so I wouldn't even consider that as a negative.

That's something I've always hated. I understand that it is generally better to get something capacity wise instead of direct essence wise, but the disparity in a nanohive is absolutely absurd.

Eh, well this isn't the place to debate the merits of the nanohive. I like both characters. One is better at hacking. The other is better at street sam. Up to you.

If I'm calling a shot for extra DV, I'm not going to be aiming the limbs.

In this case, the same applies if I'm calling a shot to bypass armor, except it might be the head then.