Yes, it is to limit it, but how much? Like I already said living makes most people 'stressed' This conversation is making me 'stressed' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Yet I'm still perfectly able to focus and concentrate, because I don't nerd rage troll post or whatever. And I'm hoping that I'm still posting fairly coherently (by my standards, I know I'm hard to follow sometimes). And for 25k and .25 essence, I'd hope those 'thousand other situations' include something useful, but for the most part they include knowledge checks which come up sparingly (Oh no, wait, it is important that you remember it, now you're all stressed), medic checks (Oops, those are all stressful situations), hacking (stressful), computer use (rarely requires a check in the first place), data search (extended test with maximum time of 1 minute, big whoop), hardware (Might shave a test off of building some component, but bypassing a maglock will be stressful), software (Once again, might shave one time period off the test for making a program for as often as that happens), and the various mechanic tests (once again, a slight time saver in something where time isn't really important.)

So yeah, it is basically an entirely worthless piece of ware if it never works when the person is under any stress unless you allow ways to mitigate that stress in the form of personal experience (included in the books), composure tests (included in the books) and/or drugs (If not specifically in the books, I can't possibly imagine that 'smoothers' don't exist in SR)

And you're right, the Sammy doesn't have ware that doesn't work while stressed, but the books do talk about penalties for not being composed, so if the GM is going to apply those penalties to the hacker (via bringing up stress for the sake of Neocortical) then the GM needs to bring up those penalties for everyone else as well. The sammy isn't going to be happy when suddenly taking a flat -2 to everything every time combat happens because a person who's entire life revolves around combat is stressed about combat. Just like the hacker isn't going to be happy when suddenly losing a bonus every time hacking happens because a person who's entire life revolves around hacking is stressed about hacking.

True, it does seem to be even more support to what is already fairly plainly RAW.

The auto-injector is for drugs, which you *can* avoid altogether, but they can be nifty. The idea is that an auto-injector can be triggered by pre-set conditions (biomonitor) or electronically (a Free action).

The Martial Arts are in Arsenal.

You're being a little silly, Karoline. Again, the book gives pretty clear examples of what counts as a distraction or stressful situation: firefight, chase, risky hack, etc. The rule is definitely there to limit a pretty huge bonus, and it hardly 'makes it worthless' or unusable.

Most of your examples are spurious: the maglock wouldn't be disallowed unless it was while you were being chased, or possibly if failure meant the security guns would blast you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 'Living' (once again) certainly doesn't count, and no one but you ever suggested it did. Knowledge checks could be disallowed in some situations… like firefights or chases. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Just because you don't care about Build/Repair or Programming, doesn't mean they're not a perfect use of this augmentation. Not everything is designed for runners.

@ Yerameyahu
I think a lot of it boils down to the table you're at. A GM who wouldn't allow dopamine with Neo-Cortical nanites is probably gonna smack whoever brings him a hacker adept like some of the ones seen here. If he'd allow it, you're probably at the same table as the street sam troll taking anti-tank fire and the mega mage so you'll fit right in. However, I can't see a GM who would say "Yeah, that makes sense but it's not specified in RAW so I'm not gonna allow it and most hacking situations will be stressful so you might as well not bother." while allowing the rest of the silliness to continue. If he does, you're either in an extremely RAW universe and everyone else will be dead after the first run anyway or he's just screwing with you.

@ WhiskeyJohnny
Neo-Cortical nanites are in the Nanoware section of Augmentation. Drugs should be Augmentation, maybe Arsenal.

For Melee, either specialize heavily or pick up shock gloves/baton and call it a day.

Lets see...

I picked Wired reflexes 2 over MbW 2 because MbW 2 requires the restricted gear quality and an extra 50k nuyen, and the build is already hurting for nuyen. I see no reason that you couldn't upgrade to it in play once you've gathered up the money though.

The auto injector is there mostly because it is cheap. What it does is make it easy to give yourself combat/hacking drugs, or things like hits from a savior medkit to heal yourself. You could easily take it out, but it is something that I often like to have as an option.

Martial arts and maneuvers are in Arsenal. And if you have unwired, the two main things that will help you right away is the fact that you can get programs for 10% the cost, but they degrade every month (Great for getting high grade programs to start with), and the... ah, what's it called. It basically gives you an extra IP when you're in VR. Synapse acceleration module or something like that. It is a modification for your commlink and is fairly cheap. May want to get hardening or something like that from arsenal, and certainly look over the weapon mods section for customizing your weapon of choice. Unwired also has tons of other crazy hacking rules, but I'd suggest not worrying about them too much right away.

Oh, and finally for your other question: Adepts will always have more room to grow. Magic characters as a whole always have more room to grow, but the mundane character will also have alot of room to grow. Upgrading stuff from second hand to higher grades to get more stuff, tons of skills to improve on, and in the case of the build I posted, specializations in particular. It really won't be a problem unless you're expecting to earn more than a few hundred karma. I mean, specing and getting cracking group up to 6 is already a good 65+ karma worth of improvement.

You're right, PoliteMan: I can't see a GM who'd say that either. It's a ridiculous statement that you crafted there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, I can easily see the GM who'd say, "some hacking situations, especially the risky kind that runners often get into, could be stressful; look here, where the book specifically says so". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As I did say before, a house rule for drug use could be a good idea. 'House rule' is not a dirty word. I'm not convinced that dopadrine is necessarily the drug that would do what you're suggesting, but it might be, or another drug (Guts, perhaps, although 'no fear' doesn't equal 'no stress/distraction' either).

Generally, when you see people talk about being stressed, they're not talking the low level stuff that happens constantly on a minute by minute basis.

They're talking significant out of the ordinary amounts. Like bullets-whizzing-by amounts.

I generally don't apply the condition unless significant negative effects for failing are present.



-k

Like, I dunno, a firefight, chase, or risky hack? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, except that the book specifically says 'ultra secure system' and nowhere in any of the books is 'ultra secure system' defined in any way, shape, or form. To some people, a computer without a password is ultra secure. To some people nothing below military grade security is more than trifling.

And I'll cherry pick messing with a maglock. If you aren't pressed for time (and could thus take forever messing with the lock) or the lock isn't alarmed (and could thus take forever messing with the lock), your DP isn't really all that important. You'll get through it eventually, and in that case, the extra 3 dice don't matter. Same for the programming. You'll get the program made eventually anyway, it isn't like those extra 3 dice will make any difference in the long run.


Agreed, a house rule to allow drugs to calm/relax a person would be great. It doesn't necessarily need to be any of the drugs listed. Since it is already technically a house rule, may as well make up some cheap smoother drug. Heck, maybe just grab some marijuana brownies before each run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Maybe it's just me, but when people talk to me about being stressed, bullets generally don't enter the conversation. Exams and homework do, but never bullets that I can recall.

edit:
Which would kind of fall under my 'you only need them when you don't get them' argument. If there is no significant negative effect for failing, then there is barely any reason to be rolling the dice, and there is even less reason to need those extra dice.

Um, okay. If you think that 3 dice is nothing, then why are you fighting so hard for them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'll gladly take those 3 dice on programming, build/repair, any number of routine hacks (once again, no one's saying that *all* hacking is banned), etc., thanks! 'Eventually' isn't as nice as you imply.

Still, I'm a little surprised that you can't use a little imagination on 'ultra-secure'. Yes, it's GM discretion. … so? Many things are GM discretion. It's hardly as vague as you suggest; hyperbole is one thing, but you're really chucking out the straw men tonight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, it is inherent in the nature of this augmentation that it *doesn't* work in some situations when you'd *really* want it to. That is not a crime against your character. That's how the augmentation works. Next you'll be mad that Heal spells don't work before you're wounded, or that you can't spend money you don't have? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It'd really be handy if wound penalties were actually bonuses, because that's when you most want to avoid further damage, right?

Fair enough


I guess what I'd take out of this is that you need to have a quick chat with your GM about Neocortical nanites before you buy them. There's only some very vague RAW (if there was something more specific I'm sure someone would have mentioned it by now) so you and him need to both agree on what constitutes a stressful or distracting situation and whether and to what extent that can be controlled through drugs. I just don't see enough in the RAW to assume one way or the other.

Definitely. All 'creative' plans should be run by the GM first, anytime, foreveramen.

It is nothing when the results of your roll doesn't matter. When the results of your roll does matter, 3 dice is very important. When programming, the results of your roll don't really matter, unless you're in a situation when you are pressed for time and thus stressed.

I can use imagination on ultra secure, but it is exceedingly vague, and it will vary greatly from person to person. I view 6 as the highest program rating a person can have without stealing a program from the military or something, which would be the focus of a run. And I also view an ultra secure node to be something with strait 7s or more for stats and running programs. That or strait 6s and dozens of IC with black hammers while running hot VR and somehow not slowing down the node.

Yes, I understand it is the nature that it doesn't work when you'd really want it to, but my point is that if you simply use 'stressful situation' without any kind of real definition, then it doesn't work any time when it actually matters, which is a big difference.

It's like if there was a piece of cyberware that let you punch for 20P, but it only works as long as you don't punch anything with more than 1 box of health/structure.

No, it's like if there was a piece of nanoware that gave you +3 to Logic-linked skills, but only outside of situations like firefights, chases, and risky hacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Again, there *is* a solid, if not exhaustive, list of examples. Right there in the book.

On a side note, I can't understand why you're so obsessed with the "exceedingly vague" example of 'ultra-secure'. If anything, it's vague on the high end, as you say. … That means your precious 3 dice are almost always *safe*, Karoline. So, why are you mad? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The results of your rolls always matter, and 'pressed for time' isn't the given criterion of 'stressful situation'. And I don't think anyone said it really was. It can certainly be a factor, along with many others. And again, I'll gladly take those 3 dice for programming, and the many other uses they're available for. Some of those uses are not shadowrunner uses, it's true. That's okay: not everything in the book is tailor-made for shadowrunners.

Yeah, but we are talking about Shadowrun here, not HighSchoolRun or OfficeRun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

This is a world where bullet resistant clothing is commonplace and they elected a Dragon as President.




-k

You can't run in the high school. Hall monitor!

Ok, so I've finally come to a decision - I'm going to roll a mundane character, and an Ork. I could use some help understanding how cyberlimb stats work, as I think I might like to have both lower legs cybered. How did that monster cyberlimb build get all that armor and huge stats and armor?

I've been looking over Karoline and Glyph's builds, and I think I'd like to go with something along those lines (though, Glyph, I think your build has more resources than a new character is allowed).

I've got a couple of questions on Biocompatibility, namely should I take it and if so, for cyber- or bioware? I guess what I'm really asking is should I go for more bioware or cyberware, as I think that would answer the previous question. Second, Biocompatibility reduces the cost by 10%, so does that mean -.1 or *.1?

Cost is original cost*0.90 (or 1-modifiers, if you will)

And even then, you just spent a ton of bp on rolling agility+skill to hurt people, something guns do just fine for cheaper. And in terms of versatility, even gun skills aren't so hot and people usually pick just one to concentrate on if they can at all help it. As Karoline said, it's not even just about needing strength to jack up your damage code. It's also about the sheer amount of dice you need, since people always* get to add skill when defending and burning a complex action allows people to add skill twice. This is offset somewhat by the fact that melee isn't routinely taking range modifiers, but this is rather cold comfort given that you can't punch people in the face from 30 meters. It's honestly a skill for bullies; it does best when you're attacking someone who can't handle themselves in a fist fight because they have practically no Dodge or Close Combat or who at least doesn't have the passes to freely burn them on defensive measures.

Here's my own philosophy on melee: They're best used as a bag of defensive tricks, not primary offense. Close Combat is sub-optimal as a form of offense in Shadowrun. But it still exists and pointing out that the ganger who just stabbed you could have done more damage by shooting you twice with a Predator won't help you soak the damage. It's better not to get hit at all. So if you have points to spare, replacing Dodge with a nice combo like Gymnastics and Unarmed Combat/Clubs plus utility/defense Martial Arts bonuses and maneuvers like Throw, Ground Fighting, Watchful Guard, Disarm or Evasion can be a nice way of adding some useful hand-to-hand flavor to a character without having to also break the bank on Strength.


*Well, not if they're completely surprised or don't have the appropriate weapon for their skills. It would have been more accurate for me to say that they can add skill without the expenditure of actions.

Exactly, which is why you'd want to use stun baton or shock gloves. Then you need agility, no strength.

Alright, I'll pick up some shock gloves then. I'll post a prospective build in a bit (when I've finished it) - if you all could help me refine it I'd really appreciate it.

Sounds good!

I don't really consider that to be a terribly important consideration. Damage value means very little to me compared to the ability to sport a quality defense pool. Unless I'm going for the damaging Disarms on defense trick, the only thing I care about is if the weapon gives Reach or not. Luckily, clubs generally have Reach, whether it's a taser or a simple mace. Beyond that it's simply a matter of convenience, with my most commonly used options being bare hands or firearms via Improvised Weapon.

He has the Born Rich quality (from Runner's Companion), which lets you spend up to 60 points on resources. You could ditch the encephalon and the cerebral boosters (to pick up later) if you want to drop him back to 250,000 Nuyen, saving 20 points.

Define Risky Yerameyahu...

Problem is that "Risky" is subjective to the person doing the Hack... What is Risky for a 400 BP character is a stroll in the Park for the Post Created, 300 Karma Character, and what is Risky for him is of no consequence to Fastjack... And that is the problem...

No, that's really not a problem at all.