Detection avoidance has nothing to do with it, really. If you were, then it would depend on how good you are.

I think that this is one of those "Agree to Disagree" moments there Toturi... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I have to agree with the others... Running around in circles, nude and painted Orange is not the act of an infiltrating individual... to me, that would immediately draw attention and would require no roll whatsoever... I do not care if the character is saying that he is being stealthy... his actions do not match his intent, and therefore he would get no roll to infiltrate in that situation, and the observer would perceive him automatically with no roll whatsoever....

His actions are outside of the norm... Now, if there were a Hundred individuals doing the same thing, and he was doing it to blend in, that would be a different matter entirely.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Again, perhaps apart from running in circles, I do not see how my example of someone using infiltration is mechanically different from your example and I am certain that such a character should get a roll to infiltrate in my example. Certainly it is the prisoner's intention to escape and avoid detection.

But in your example, your character is not running out while the light is upon him, and is not intentionally drawing attention to himself (running around in circles and waving his arms), which would be highly counterproductive to his intent of infiltrating (or exfiltrating in this case)... one is a case of intent matching actions, and the other is a case where they are diametrically opposed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) The mechanical difference lies with the intent of the character taking the action. When intent matches action, the mechanics will work as they are supposed to. When the Intent does not match the action, well, he should expect to get caught, because the mechanics will not support the actions taken...

I believe we have had this conversation before, and nothing was really resolved then either... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Wait... so all the guards in the Metal Gear Solid games are perpetually tripping on whatever that drug is that forces users to perceive astrally? Now the box trick makes sense!

I can add in other descriptions like he has attention grabbing streamers involuntarily attached to him, that the ground where he must get through is well lighted and the light will be upon him once he runs out. The only difference is the infered intention of the character. You think that the character in my example is trying to infiltrate while in yours he is not. But that may not be true, the intention of the character in your example could be to infiltrate despite making those actions.

But, the penalties could easily reduce his DP to 0, or you could simply rule it impossible. Sometimes intent doesn't matter.

Which is why we never solve anything with this line of reasoning. The logical assumptions would be to either reduce dice pools or render the action completely impossible based upon the actions taken; while Toturi seems to think that the action should be allowed and a roll granted, regardless of circumstance.

I heavily disagree with his stance, which is why nothing gets solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

That's what GMs are for.




-k

That would probably be true for smaller dice pools. But the problem lies in those times where the character's large dice pool enables him to produce results that is extreme and he voluntarily takes penalties or gives modifiers in an opposed test that would render a normal person unable to successfully execute the action.

But that should not excuse actions that do not match intent, no matter how large the dice pool is. That way lies madness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

toturi, you're just not making the penalties big enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Use this formula: penalty = -1*[(player DP)+1].

Shadowrun 4th Edition (20th anniversary), page 124:

INFILTRATION (AGILITY)
“Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors.”

The description clearly states, “sneak around undetected”, and thus implies that there must be an available path to bypass detection, avoid being observed, or otherwise minimize perception.
If there is no reasonable chance of bypassing an active monitoring system with infiltration skill alone, then another tactic or skill is called for… such as disguise (fooling the observer), misdirection/distraction/diversion (disrupting the monitoring system or observer), technological countermeasures (hacking, jamming, etc.), or simply magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I tend to feel that people are looking for an ultimate answer to a gray area here, this is indeed the space that GM's and Players are supposed to fill with their imagination.

As a GM you might not be able to see any viable way of the player 'infiltrating', in that case, don't give the player a roll, if the player has an idea, and it's not too far fetched, then probably give em a roll.

Whenever there's a disagreement the GM has the final word for the game and the player has the final word as to whether he plays.

We're all reasonable people here, right?

When ever this subject comes up, I feel like watching The Hunted again. Some great infiltration action in that movie. Some movies featuring characters one might call ninjas also could be used for inspiration. Heck, one might even enjoy a bit of the Ocean's Eleven series.

Another thing that comes to mind is that most players and probably GMs as well don't have the first clue how to actually effectively infiltrate areas IRL and thus have very little in the way of ideas how characters can utilize this skill, thus the reason I mention the above entertainment pieces so that there might be the inkling of a clue. It probably leads to a lot of situations like that supposedly impassible hallway vigilantly observed by the all seeing digital eye.

But consider this, infiltration isn't merely sneaking, silent foot steps, it is looking like one belongs. No, not what you are wearing, your body language, posture and position. Walking through a crowded street and approaching a target with thousands of eyes on your movements without drawing attention to yourself is infiltration. Remember everything we perceive is illusion, a image constructed by our minds, it can be tricked to see one thing and not another - magicians do this as a matter of fact. Not only that, is a very exceptional building that I have ever seen during construction that is impervious to infiltration - just because you have this hallway that is impossible to not be noticed doesn't mean the infiltrator even takes it, s/he may keep their body language to the accepted norm, observe it and move on, then more than likely take such approaches as moving through false ceilings, walls and floors placed there for maintenance and utility or take the classic air vent which that building needs for people to work there, after all if your workers are breathing stale air they best bring a canary for that particular mouldy mine shaft...

Infiltration is merely the abstraction of methods of gaining access physically unnoticed that is not apparent to players and GMs who are used to entering by the assigned door for a building, such assumptions are presumptuous to place upon the characters who have an entirely different mindset ... it should come as little surprise I try to give a Infiltration specialist understanding of and access to building blue prints the construction methods used to, especially of utilities and maintenance. If your target has only the one entrance, it is unlikely that it is a place of human activity but a vault, in which case get a vault cracker specialist.

Indeed, it could imply that it doesn't matter under how heavy the surveillance the area is or what actions you choose to take while around the area you can always find a way through it undetected.

With a large enough dice pool, you have a reasonable chance of bypassing the active monitoring system with infiltration skill alone.


I cannot find this formula in any of the SR books.

So?

So then that modifier is just a house rule.

Oh, look – you made GM fiat into a formula. You are so clever and funny.

This may be another aspect of me being used to other systems, but I tend to dislike that much abstraction. It's getting a little too close to "ok, roll to see how well you complete the run, you got 4 successes? ok, you earn 30k NY"

I guess if you don't find sneaking around and infiltrating cool then sure, handwave it away with ultra abstract infiltration rules "you just get past it, don't ask how" but I'd prefer to have the players describe cool stuff.

Duh. Of course it's GM fiat and a 'house rule'. What did you two think I was talking about all this time?

Then I think you inherently run into the problem of character skill/knowledge versus the player's skill/knowledge set. I mean, I think its fun to describe (as GM or player) the actions after the roll, not before the roll, before the roll I see only the intent of the player to see if their character can reach a goal with the obstacles outlined by the GM.

The whole what the player knows/does/is versus what the character knows/does/is happens to be an issue I am sensitive to, since if as a player my in game social interactions are determined chiefly before the roll based on what I say as a player trying to flesh out my character, they seem to inherently stick their foot in their mouth just as I do in real life all too often as I try to parse things out and have my syntax be socially acceptable, so I hope you can understand why I like the roll of the dice to have enough say that I can then describe my character having critical failure, failure, success, or critical success.

To turn your example on its head "ok, roll to see how well you complete the run, you got 4 successes? ok, you earn 30k NY", I think that would actually be fun if between the two sentences we got to make up a story about what happened between those two events, otherwise you can break down every run into that and that amount of silliness really comes across as a absurd assertion to make, the extreme and reductionist level of abstraction that runs counter to having fun in the game for the sake of making your argument, a straw man you know you can knock down if you will.

It really comes down to don't think a lot of people know/do/are infiltration specialists methods all that well, any more than I would be a competent influential socialite and con man who can convince men/women to spend a night of passion with me.

That's useful... if you want the play Shadowrun Speed Chess.

I'm gonna jump on this train and point out - along with several others - that just because you have a skill doesn't mean it's universally applicable. You can roll Infiltration in many situations where "I'm sorry, it's not possible" is a valid result. For instance, if you are in prison - let's say this cell: http://www.zawaj.com/askbilqis/wp-content/...prison-cell.jpg - and two guards decide to search your cell while a third blocks the exit from the cell - I mean physically occupies the available space of the doorway... Well, then there's no feasible way absent invisbility and probably *intangibility* as well for you to avoid detection.

The game rules don't exist in a vacuum. Common sense has to be applied. If a bunch of Lone Star cops are trying to arrest and/or kill your PC and you roll Negotiation to have them let you go, you better be able to provide a compelling reason for them to do so, above and beyond the die roll: they have to have some reason to be *open* to negotiation at all. Like bribery, or a convincing "You have the wrong guy, it was the one-armed man!" kind of speech. But the dice aren't *always* enough.

That said, this is shadowrun. If players aren't *trying* to hide in tiny spaces while men search for them, or fast talk police long enough to hide, then I'd be disappointed.

Edit: Also, fast talking police like that wouldn't even really be Negotiation, it'd be Con.

I'd say that Infiltration is a bit more than general sneakiness. It's also the knowledge where, how and when to move. So an Infiltration specialist can try to predict where the best spot for spotting intruders, or the optimal patrol path is, and avoid that area. Or, if you say that's a bit too much, use a Knowledge: Security Measures, or Corporate Security, to get the same effect (and a hefty bonus to your Infiltration tests).