Infiltration past a known entity is documented in the books, but how do you deal with infiltration past a hidden camera/unknown sensor/spirit (if you didn't have astral perception)?

Similarly how do you deal with partial information: like you know a guard is on duty but you don't know where he is or you know there's a camera in this general area but it's not clear where exactly it is, which seems useful for infiltration.

That sounds like a situation where the GM would make a few secret rolls to see if the Character get spotted.

As a GM, I would not require a player to make infiltration checks if they new where the guard was and if they could therefore completely avoid the guard.

If they didn't know where the guard was, then I'd know where the guard was, and then it's a case of making the infiltration checks on their behalf (if they are taking a lot of caution to sneak around) or, if they weren't trying, I'd just have the guard/camera automatically detect them.

*shrug* Sounds like normal infiltration to me. You move in a way that minimizes exposure to potential observers, not necessarily known ones. It's a very abstract skill.

oh I guess I didn't understand infiltration at all

a long time ago there was a thread on a mundane infiltration specialist getting upset that spirits could just watch him do his thing

and it would make sense to me that if you could see the spirits you'd have an advantage in infiltrating (or at least not a disadvantage) which would imply something about similar scenarios.

So what is the difference between an infiltrator that can see in the astral and an infiltrator that cannot? Are they both equally effective against astral opponents?

I didn't realize the spirit was the crucial point. Stealth against astral is a tricky subject, and we've had a couple threads about it before. The short answer is that it's pretty hard, especially if you can't see the astral, but there are definitely things you can try (like hiding in crowds, behind solid objects, etc.). However, if *you* can see the spirit, it can almost certainly see you.

I agree that infiltration when you know where the guards/sensors are is different (easier), but I've never heard a specific way GMs handle that. I just change the threshold, or maybe the runner avoids having Perception rolled against him entirely. Still, it's usually Agility + Infiltration to successfully move in a way that avoids those sensors or patrols. Or the cinematic laser-grid in the vault. Just kidding, those are stupid.

I just assume that every surface of every wall is coated in motion sensors.

Agreed: for what sensors cost, there's no real reason for any installation to skimp. That's why you have hackers.

I'm not sure why, but to me infiltration is probably the most misunderstood skill.

I mean let's say you are in a hallway 2m wide, 3m tall, and 30m long with a camera mounted above a door that is the entrance to a room that you are trying to enter.

How in the world can you sneak past a camera in such a limited scenario? It doesn't seem to matter if you have 100 infiltration dice or 1... it doesn't seem possible.

Some DSers might respond by saying you have to hack it (but maybe it's outside of your range), or invisibility spell is the key (let's say mage is down), or that you have to enter through another entrance cause this is too hard, but this just seems ridiculous. Maybe a successful infiltration test implies you spiderman it on the ceiling.

I think I understand astral infiltration now, but infiltration effectiveness seems largely dependent on stuff that has nothing to do with an infiltration skill.

Furthermore people seem to be of the impression that if you know where a camera is, then you can avoid it so you don't have to roll anything. Suddenly the best infiltrators are the perceptive types...

Additionally if you don't know where a camera is then likely there are many paths that you can travel from point A to point B, but you'd have to make some kind of intuition roll to determine what is more ideal/optimal. Consider the simple example of the same room 2m x 3m x 30m that has a thin sheet that separates the room into two 1m x 3m x 30m sections. You can choose either the left or right room and there is a hidden camera located in the right room. Do you automatically let the runner infiltrate if they choose the left room and then automatically fail them if they choose the right room? Well since this is a simple example so for a generic example extrapolate this to a case where the infiltration paths are hard to enumerate.

What do you do?

There are other ways to beat cameras. Sure, you can hack the camera, but why do that when you can just set up a jammer? You can rely on invisibility, or you can stick to the shadows/pillars. If it's a well lit hallway, and the camera has good range, the jammer may still work, and that is what the climb skill and gecko-items/wares/powers are for. Or wear a chameleon suit. The trick to dealing with cameras and other sensors is to be creative.

Also, a reason why corps would skimp on sensors, no one can watch them all. Agents may not understand what the feeds mean, and so won't call security. And metahumans can't watch all the cameras all the time. Or listen to all the mics. They can review the feeds later, but what if you wear a mask that hides all but the most prominant features? if you are a smallish person, wear some of that bulky gear, under clothing. Make yourself look different.

How do the jamming rules work? Does the camera realize it's being jammed? Or does the guard watching the camera realize it's being jammed?

Ok well in my example there were no shadows and no pillars. It literally was a box with a camera watching everything but the small area next to it. Whether you wear a chameleon suit or not it's still an infiltration test. Can someone help me imagine how the god of infiltration with 200 infiltration dice could make it into that door without hacking/invisibility etc?

The god of infiltration steps into the room but is so stealthy and agile that he makes himself identical to the wall somehow... lulz?

You do know what the chameleon suit does, right?

Infiltrarion is supposed to be used when THERE IS a way to be sneaky. Like, there is a hall with a rotating camera, or with blindspots. You roll AGI+Infiltration to get the best of these gaps. If your only way is through a narrou corridor, well, lit with no cover, your best roll is an Edge roll to check if there was someone looking at the camera at the moment.

Also, against astral surveilance. Use a cardboard box, make a whole, put some kind of one-way screen and hide inside it. No astral being will be able to see you.

Yes. But -4 to visual perception is not equivalent to "cannot be seen".



I had that sweet tech figured out. Thanks though. I really appreciate your first sentence, basically it's been the most helpful.

Your assuming that the guard monitoring the camera feed even has more then 4 dice for perception.
Also you do understand that i was responding to you thinking of "the guy walking in and turning himself identical to the wall" as thats exactly what the chameleon tech does.

I can certainly break down the rules of infiltration rolls, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Like if you have a person with perception 6 intuition 6 a bunch of visual enhancements (+3) actively looking for the man in a yellow hat (+3) in grey room (+2) it seems like... how could you not find such a man? But then there would be that one adept with 20 agility and 9 infiltration that could numerically beat this score. Now agility 20 and infiltration 9 don't mean much to me, but I suppose that dude is so freaking slippery that he is undetectable. Perhaps my example doesn't really indicate my issue with it.

Whatever let's just roll some dice.

Well the system kinda assumes that your actually infiltrating when using the skill.
Running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange doesn't exactly count as infiltrating, so how big an infiltrating pool you have doesn't really matter if your not actually trying to infiltrate.

It's true: you don't roll Perception when something is obvious.

False. You do not roll Perception when something is immediately noticeable.

Something "obvious" has a Threshold of 1. (p136 SR4A)

No. It does not matter how your character is infiltrating, it only matters that you have said your character is trying to do so. Thus it doesn't matter if you are running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange as long as you are using the Infiltration skill. You might get a lot of negative modifiers but if your Infiltration pool is large enough, you might still succeed despite your running in circles in an empty white room naked having painted your whole body orange.

Except that you're not using infiltrating skill when doing that.
Using the skill requiers you to actually be infiltrating.

Well, that's *obviously* what I meant, toturi.

Except that you are, despite doing that. Using the skill does require you to be infiltrating, but it does not say how. Usage of the skill even when clad in trappings not associated with the skill is still using the skill.

Consider that a prisoner trying to escape from prison. He is unfortunately covered in bright orange paint, has to get past a clear unobstructed area that has been painted white, has an implanted commlink that is emitting a siren and is running to reach his destination. I do not see why he isn't using infiltration or how this is functionally dissimiliar to the above example.


It was not immediately noticeable.

Are you sure? I wasn't trying to avoid detection, after all.

Maybe he rolled a critical glitch.

Detection avoidance has nothing to do with it, really. If you were, then it would depend on how good you are.

I think that this is one of those "Agree to Disagree" moments there Toturi...

I have to agree with the others... Running around in circles, nude and painted Orange is not the act of an infiltrating individual... to me, that would immediately draw attention and would require no roll whatsoever... I do not care if the character is saying that he is being stealthy... his actions do not match his intent, and therefore he would get no roll to infiltrate in that situation, and the observer would perceive him automatically with no roll whatsoever....

His actions are outside of the norm... Now, if there were a Hundred individuals doing the same thing, and he was doing it to blend in, that would be a different matter entirely.

Anyways...

Again, perhaps apart from running in circles, I do not see how my example of someone using infiltration is mechanically different from your example and I am certain that such a character should get a roll to infiltrate in my example. Certainly it is the prisoner's intention to escape and avoid detection.

But in your example, your character is not running out while the light is upon him, and is not intentionally drawing attention to himself (running around in circles and waving his arms), which would be highly counterproductive to his intent of infiltrating (or exfiltrating in this case)... one is a case of intent matching actions, and the other is a case where they are diametrically opposed. The mechanical difference lies with the intent of the character taking the action. When intent matches action, the mechanics will work as they are supposed to. When the Intent does not match the action, well, he should expect to get caught, because the mechanics will not support the actions taken...

I believe we have had this conversation before, and nothing was really resolved then either...

Wait... so all the guards in the Metal Gear Solid games are perpetually tripping on whatever that drug is that forces users to perceive astrally? Now the box trick makes sense!

I can add in other descriptions like he has attention grabbing streamers involuntarily attached to him, that the ground where he must get through is well lighted and the light will be upon him once he runs out. The only difference is the infered intention of the character. You think that the character in my example is trying to infiltrate while in yours he is not. But that may not be true, the intention of the character in your example could be to infiltrate despite making those actions.

But, the penalties could easily reduce his DP to 0, or you could simply rule it impossible. Sometimes intent doesn't matter.

Which is why we never solve anything with this line of reasoning. The logical assumptions would be to either reduce dice pools or render the action completely impossible based upon the actions taken; while Toturi seems to think that the action should be allowed and a roll granted, regardless of circumstance.

I heavily disagree with his stance, which is why nothing gets solved.

That's what GMs are for.




-k

That would probably be true for smaller dice pools. But the problem lies in those times where the character's large dice pool enables him to produce results that is extreme and he voluntarily takes penalties or gives modifiers in an opposed test that would render a normal person unable to successfully execute the action.

But that should not excuse actions that do not match intent, no matter how large the dice pool is. That way lies madness...

toturi, you're just not making the penalties big enough. Use this formula: penalty = -1*[(player DP)+1].

Shadowrun 4th Edition (20th anniversary), page 124:

INFILTRATION (AGILITY)
“Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors.”

The description clearly states, “sneak around undetected”, and thus implies that there must be an available path to bypass detection, avoid being observed, or otherwise minimize perception.
If there is no reasonable chance of bypassing an active monitoring system with infiltration skill alone, then another tactic or skill is called for… such as disguise (fooling the observer), misdirection/distraction/diversion (disrupting the monitoring system or observer), technological countermeasures (hacking, jamming, etc.), or simply magic

Yeah, I tend to feel that people are looking for an ultimate answer to a gray area here, this is indeed the space that GM's and Players are supposed to fill with their imagination.

As a GM you might not be able to see any viable way of the player 'infiltrating', in that case, don't give the player a roll, if the player has an idea, and it's not too far fetched, then probably give em a roll.

Whenever there's a disagreement the GM has the final word for the game and the player has the final word as to whether he plays.

We're all reasonable people here, right?

When ever this subject comes up, I feel like watching The Hunted again. Some great infiltration action in that movie. Some movies featuring characters one might call ninjas also could be used for inspiration. Heck, one might even enjoy a bit of the Ocean's Eleven series.

Another thing that comes to mind is that most players and probably GMs as well don't have the first clue how to actually effectively infiltrate areas IRL and thus have very little in the way of ideas how characters can utilize this skill, thus the reason I mention the above entertainment pieces so that there might be the inkling of a clue. It probably leads to a lot of situations like that supposedly impassible hallway vigilantly observed by the all seeing digital eye.

But consider this, infiltration isn't merely sneaking, silent foot steps, it is looking like one belongs. No, not what you are wearing, your body language, posture and position. Walking through a crowded street and approaching a target with thousands of eyes on your movements without drawing attention to yourself is infiltration. Remember everything we perceive is illusion, a image constructed by our minds, it can be tricked to see one thing and not another - magicians do this as a matter of fact. Not only that, is a very exceptional building that I have ever seen during construction that is impervious to infiltration - just because you have this hallway that is impossible to not be noticed doesn't mean the infiltrator even takes it, s/he may keep their body language to the accepted norm, observe it and move on, then more than likely take such approaches as moving through false ceilings, walls and floors placed there for maintenance and utility or take the classic air vent which that building needs for people to work there, after all if your workers are breathing stale air they best bring a canary for that particular mouldy mine shaft...

Infiltration is merely the abstraction of methods of gaining access physically unnoticed that is not apparent to players and GMs who are used to entering by the assigned door for a building, such assumptions are presumptuous to place upon the characters who have an entirely different mindset ... it should come as little surprise I try to give a Infiltration specialist understanding of and access to building blue prints the construction methods used to, especially of utilities and maintenance. If your target has only the one entrance, it is unlikely that it is a place of human activity but a vault, in which case get a vault cracker specialist.

Indeed, it could imply that it doesn't matter under how heavy the surveillance the area is or what actions you choose to take while around the area you can always find a way through it undetected.

With a large enough dice pool, you have a reasonable chance of bypassing the active monitoring system with infiltration skill alone.


I cannot find this formula in any of the SR books.

So?

So then that modifier is just a house rule.

Oh, look – you made GM fiat into a formula. You are so clever and funny.

This may be another aspect of me being used to other systems, but I tend to dislike that much abstraction. It's getting a little too close to "ok, roll to see how well you complete the run, you got 4 successes? ok, you earn 30k NY"

I guess if you don't find sneaking around and infiltrating cool then sure, handwave it away with ultra abstract infiltration rules "you just get past it, don't ask how" but I'd prefer to have the players describe cool stuff.

Duh. Of course it's GM fiat and a 'house rule'. What did you two think I was talking about all this time?

Then I think you inherently run into the problem of character skill/knowledge versus the player's skill/knowledge set. I mean, I think its fun to describe (as GM or player) the actions after the roll, not before the roll, before the roll I see only the intent of the player to see if their character can reach a goal with the obstacles outlined by the GM.

The whole what the player knows/does/is versus what the character knows/does/is happens to be an issue I am sensitive to, since if as a player my in game social interactions are determined chiefly before the roll based on what I say as a player trying to flesh out my character, they seem to inherently stick their foot in their mouth just as I do in real life all too often as I try to parse things out and have my syntax be socially acceptable, so I hope you can understand why I like the roll of the dice to have enough say that I can then describe my character having critical failure, failure, success, or critical success.

To turn your example on its head "ok, roll to see how well you complete the run, you got 4 successes? ok, you earn 30k NY", I think that would actually be fun if between the two sentences we got to make up a story about what happened between those two events, otherwise you can break down every run into that and that amount of silliness really comes across as a absurd assertion to make, the extreme and reductionist level of abstraction that runs counter to having fun in the game for the sake of making your argument, a straw man you know you can knock down if you will.

It really comes down to don't think a lot of people know/do/are infiltration specialists methods all that well, any more than I would be a competent influential socialite and con man who can convince men/women to spend a night of passion with me.

That's useful... if you want the play Shadowrun Speed Chess.

I'm gonna jump on this train and point out - along with several others - that just because you have a skill doesn't mean it's universally applicable. You can roll Infiltration in many situations where "I'm sorry, it's not possible" is a valid result. For instance, if you are in prison - let's say this cell: http://www.zawaj.com/askbilqis/wp-content/...prison-cell.jpg - and two guards decide to search your cell while a third blocks the exit from the cell - I mean physically occupies the available space of the doorway... Well, then there's no feasible way absent invisbility and probably *intangibility* as well for you to avoid detection.

The game rules don't exist in a vacuum. Common sense has to be applied. If a bunch of Lone Star cops are trying to arrest and/or kill your PC and you roll Negotiation to have them let you go, you better be able to provide a compelling reason for them to do so, above and beyond the die roll: they have to have some reason to be *open* to negotiation at all. Like bribery, or a convincing "You have the wrong guy, it was the one-armed man!" kind of speech. But the dice aren't *always* enough.

That said, this is shadowrun. If players aren't *trying* to hide in tiny spaces while men search for them, or fast talk police long enough to hide, then I'd be disappointed.

Edit: Also, fast talking police like that wouldn't even really be Negotiation, it'd be Con.

I'd say that Infiltration is a bit more than general sneakiness. It's also the knowledge where, how and when to move. So an Infiltration specialist can try to predict where the best spot for spotting intruders, or the optimal patrol path is, and avoid that area. Or, if you say that's a bit too much, use a Knowledge: Security Measures, or Corporate Security, to get the same effect (and a hefty bonus to your Infiltration tests).