The following is a continuation of a previous thread where I posted an early character design up for discussion (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33803&st=0&start=0). It was instructive enough that I managed to start over and make a synthesis of what had been said, what to let go of, what to retain, and my own appreciation of it (of course). Earlier readers will still recognize it.

I managed to come up with a sort of 'quadruple threat' optimization perspective for the character, in order to get out of the 'too narrow focus' danger zone. The goal is to take advantage of something the character does well (shooting needs AGI) and fit another useful skill along with it (for ex. Stealth) that might synergise well (because it, too, needs AGI).

The four threats (loose categories that interconnect, more of less) are :

• Stealth (not being seen, heard, smelled, sneaking past guards and detecting enemies)
• Social (social fluency, subtlety, getting past social blockades, being an armed threat but a fine dinner guest)
• Athletic (movement speed, endurance, get where I need, etc.)
• Street sammy (shoot and kill things, not dying, eating and spitting bullets)

Also, a char sheet is quite long to rewrite and to read, so I'll post only what's useful and ask your output on ideas and tricks that could crank as much goodness in the least amount of BP. (Obviously the number of BPs this takes has not been calculated yet, and what is below --especially skills-- might be a bit over budget. I'll adjust later on.)

Ogre (human looking enough, not too tall, good scores, and stomach is even going to be useful for:)
Ghoul

(200pts spent, base scores without any gear)

BOD 12
AGI 6
REA 7
STR 6
CHA 2 (reason is that I'm pretty much capped : 1-3, aug.: 5)
INT 4
LOG 3
WIL 5

Qualities :
Positive

Blandness
First impression
Human looking
SURGE III

Metagenetic improvement (AGI)
Nasty Vibe
Celerity

(don't know about other ones like Common sense or Martial arts (Krav Maga or Iaijutsu))

Negative

35 points of maybe In Debt or Day Job (Sleep regulator makes up for it)

Skills :

Combat : Automatics 5, Unarmed 1
Physical active :

Perception 4 (with attention coprocessor and sensor 'ware)
Stealth group 4 (enhanced reflexes and reflex recorder on)
Athletics group 4 (synthacardium, enhanced articulation and reflex recorder on)
Outdoors group 1

Social :

Influence group 4 (enhanced pheromone receptors 3, and... tailored pheromones?)
Intimidate 4

Technical :

Pilot ground craft 1
Electronics group 1

Others :

Severe biosculpting (doesn't look like an Infected ghoul anymore)
Clean metabolism (no foul body odor)
Hair growth (ghouls lack body hair, here's some implanted ones)

Cybereyes (obviously... ghouls are blind)
Wired reflexes

(Everything electro skinlinked for 50 yen/piece)

His weapon would be a well concealed (good palming skill score) submachine gun (with sound suppressor), covered in ruthenium polymer, with barrel reduction (AR, p.150) and a concealed holster (preferably on a Synergist Business line 'lined vest').

Basic hidden armor would be FFBA with gel, plus SecureTech PPP. His outer armor would be covered in ruthenium polymer with thermal dampening.

--

Obviously this character is more detailed on paper (computer layout is killing me), but the essential ingredients are there.

I'm thinking this could pass for human on eye-sight, for most olfactory detectors, but not through magical detection (i.e. ghouls that are not adepts are a bit stuck with their aura, even if they lose Dual Natured after their essence drops due to cyberware). Blandness, first impression and human looking, plus biosculpting and good disguise (nanopaste disguise programmed by other character) all adds up. Social skills (influence group) should be fair, as CHA is a wee bit better and more skill points are invested along with first impression (this is good for etiquette, especially), plus intimidation enhanced by nasty vibe.

My hypothesis is that this character being NOT a gigantic troll/fomori ghoul, but a simple human-looking ogre ghoul that doesn't look/sound/smell like one, is all good sign. He might be less of a fire magnet too, even if magicians will see something is amiss.

What advice would I need to run this character and make the best out of given 400 BP ? (Browsing previous thread is advised.)

Thanks in advance !

I dunno if I'd call any Ogre Ghoul with 2 Cha a 'social threat', but kudos for trying to avoid being a social liability! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Feeling like I could finally tackle the 'ghoul controversy' made me a bit too proud. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Can it be further helped ?

I would go ahead and add the tailored pheramones. It's pretty much a no-brainer for anyone who wants to be social-y. If you can afford the 45k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , it would make your influence DPs more respectable.



~R~

Just take note that by turning to ghoul from ogre you loose the ogre stomach ability of your original metatype and are stuck to a diet of raw meat (about 3 kg a day, with about 1 kg being of human/metahuman origin).

Where in the book does it say he loses all his racial abilities for being a ghoul?

He doesn't, but ghouls have to eat metahuman flesh. They can't munch on berries and stems the way ogres can.

It expressely says that a ghoul only tolerate raw meat and reject everything else, exactly like most brands of vampire are strict hematovore and will reject anything else.

So? Ogre stomach doesn't make him immune to that. All it allows is this

In game terms, Lifestyle costs are reduced by 20 percent and
the character receives a +2 dice pool modifier on Tests to resist
ingested toxins (see Toxic Substances, p. 245, SR4).

There is no reason, fluff or mechanics wise, to take that away. He still has all the disadvantages Ghouls have he just needs to eat less and has a better chance of not throwing up if he eats the wrong thing.

Ghouls can only eat metahuman flesh. There aren't exceptions this. The decrease in an orge's lifestyle cost is that he can eat grass and twigs and what-not. Once ghoulified, he can't do that any more. It's gotta be flesh for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I'll give you the toxins, but if you gave a ghoul the Digestive Expansion bioware, I don't think that would effect his lifestyle choice either. He's still gotta eat that flesh.

Yum yum yum!

Serious? I think removing that with a cheap Clean Metabolism mod is quiet a stretch. Maybe, I would alow it with some more advanced/expensive version, but your GM might see it different...

Also, I think the Human Looking is not available to Metavariants (like Oger) by RAW (I agree that this only makes sense for the more exotic looking ones - for Ghouls though, I think it should not be available - unless you just want to look like a human ghoul instead of an ork ghoul). The bodysculpting might take care of both Oger & Ghoul look in one package, so I would just drop the Metahuman looking and negotiate the essence and cost for the sculpting with your GM.

For the Oger Tummy - I would rule, that you gain the resistance to toxins and can eat all the stuff (maybe a bit more restricted then a normal oger), but you cant replace the nutrients you get from raw flesh, so there would be no lifestyle cost reduction in my game (or a reduced one at most).

More accurately, they can only eat meat, and need a significative portion (5% of body weight a week) being of metahuman origin.

I've done a list of Cyberware and Bioware, I would like advice as to what should be added or cut from it :

*CYBERWARE*

attention co-processor 3
wired reflexes 2 (alpha)

balance augmenter (standalone implant)
cyberears [4] 1 (alpha)
spatial recognizer [2]
audio enhancement 2 [2]


cybereyes+protective covers [12] 3 (alpha)
smartlink [3]
Vision enh. 2 [2]
Lowlight [2]
Thermographic [2]
Flare compensation [1]
Vision magnification [2]

skinlink x5

*BIOWARE* (all second hand, save for sleep regulator and muscle toner which are basics)

enhanced articulations
reflex rec. Group x2 (Groups are : Athletics and Stealth)
reflex rec. Skill x1 (Skill is : Automatics)
tailored pheromones 3
enh. pheromone recep. 3
synthacardium 3
muscle toner 2
platelet factories
sleep regulator

On a very complicated spreadsheet this comes to 4.99 Essence (lots of the above are alphaware or second hand basic 'ware) and 251450 nuyen. (Obviously, this is a bit much)

Thanks for your contribution !

Note that Cyberware costs twice as much for Ghouls.

No it doesn't. They do start out with the loss of one Essence point, and also have double the Interval for the Availability Test when trying to find a medical provider willing to work on them.

On the question of ogre stomach, I would probably treat it the same as digestive expansion bioware - it doesn't alleviate the ghoul's dietary requirement, but it does let them ingest things that would normally nauseate them without penalty. So his ghoul would be a carnivore, eating raw meat by choice, but if he was stuck eating in a fancy restaurant with the Johnson, he could handle a plate of well-done veal, linguine, and veggies without throwing up afterwards.

Jesus, is there anywhere in the Sixth World that sells that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Mr. Johnson must be doing well.

Sure there is; So long as you don't ask what's in it, where it came from, how it was prepared, who acquired it or how it was paid for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)





~R~

One thing just occurred to me about this character. For the most part, he seems geared towards blending in. However, nasty vibe really goes against that. I mean, it essentially gives you a freakin' aura of pure evil! It would make you stand out a lot, and be remembered, just like glamour would.

Runner's Companion says that a ghoul can get a deltaware digestive expansion that will allow them to eat things that would normally nauseate them without penalty, but it doesn't alleviate their dietary requirement.
So I guess treat the ogre stomach like that. He could eat Mr. Johnson's "veal"(here kitty, kitty) without throwing up, but he still needs to consume metahuman flesh to stay alive. 5% of his body weight. An ogre's average weight is 101kg, so he's gonna need over 5kg or 11 pounds of flesh a week.

And I thought Shylock was bad!

I thought we established that only Regeneration critters need deltaware? I'm fine with it either way; as far as I'm concerned, being Ghouled rewrites a significant portion of your DNA. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's in the diety requirements description.

Interesting. Hardly the first time the books contradicted themselves, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wouldn't that be a bit much ? I mean Glamour mentions 'distinctive style', and other metagenetics mention 'freak', but Nasty Vibe, despite the description, only mentions the Intimidation bonus. That would be inferring a lot of fluff from rules. Distinctive style, especially when you tried so much to hide all distinctions, seems like a big flaw (I did take blandness and first impression after all).

Obviously I'd prefer -- like you say -- to avoid being remembered, but at the same time, intimidating people seems like a fine niche, and pretty doable : wielding weapons and threatening a target gives bonuses, just as inflicting pain does, both being more coherent with a martial character than an elf face threatening to kill someone.

--

If Nasty Vibe and First Impression can be added (I don't see why not, you can impress someone with fear, just like you might admire the Godfather the first time you meet him, and this might impact your vulnerability to his fear-inducing words, for ex.), this makes for a pretty high dice pool, given fairly low charisma :

Enhanced receptors 2 + Tailored Pheromones 3 + CHA 2 + Nasty Vibe 3 + First Impression 2 + Intimidation 5, and lets try to fit a Vocal Range Enhancer 1 in there for kicks = 18 dice (20 if I threaten, and 22 if I cause pain to the target while armed), can be more if physically imposing is involved (+1 to +3), and if the group outnumbers the intimidated it's +2. On a lonely unarmed person, most non-threatening passersby, this can get up to 25-27 dice (extreme case).

Few characters will have both such high intimidation and high willpower, and those who do are probably worth killing. Highest pre-made NPC threat had total of seven dice to resist, and the Barghest also has seven, and it's the highest any critter has in SR4A (I'm not implying higher is impossible, just giving figures, prime runners might have better stats, especially BBEG-type ones).

So this seems like a pretty good strategy to use... strategically (i.e. not *all* the time).

If the GM is sane (no evidence he is, yet), he'd cap your social DP at (Attrib+Skill)*2, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Sadly, the book only suggests this *above* 20, sigh.)

Well, as a thought experiment in an ideal context, that makes for a lot of dice; but things like nuken, BP, costs for skill points, etc. all have to be balanced with diversity in mind, so the end number, in a real game context, ought to be smaller. I.e. I still want infiltration AND high Athletics AND blending in AND tanking AND shooting, and not just intimidating, so a balance between conflicting priorities will have to be struck given there is a cost. (Remove costs and everyone mundane (it's different for magic and technomancy) can be everything mundane : hacker+rigger+street sammy+face, etc.)

Costs are my main preoccupation ATM, and your input allows my newbie imagination to attribute values to different categories and thus predict the probability of such and such a challenge involving such and such a tool/capacity.

And, of course, in the end, an aesthetic judgment will be made to see whether I retained or lost the 'fluff'/storytelling/imagined concept that I had in mind when I started stating the character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)