So, you mean the Sprite uses its Stealth program on the TM's icon like one might do to hide a file?
I suppose that would work within a node, but not for hacking into a node. So, once inside, the TM could compile a sprite to hold his Stealth up while he gets to some other business. Honestly though, it would have to be a high-level Sprite to match the TMs unthreaded Stealth, and pulling up a R7-12 Sprite mid-hack is dicey.

As to 5 IPs, the TM would need to Submerge twice and concentrate on that facet alone. For the hacker, it's a starting investment.

Not necessarily. TM's can benefit from a simsense booster cyberware just like hackers, and start with 4. Its not a bad option if you want a point of ware(plenty of goodies. eyes, control rigs, pushed), or so you can get other echoes instead.

A druggie-TM still can also get extra matrix passes from, say, jazz. +1 pass is +1 pass, whether its on the matrix or not.
I'm kind of amused at the idea of a stoner-geek that happens to be a TM, and hacks better while high.

Well, there's always Overdrive and Trance for +1 and +2 to logic-linked skills. Plenty of reason for a TM to dose those.

Don't recall those. Did I miss some awesome drugs in Arsenal?

Yep. Awakened drugs!

Threading is not a complex action?
I may just thread something and then use it, without any problems? In the same Pass?

Yep, pretty much.

You better get you GM high before succesting this to him.
No sane GM would allow you to get a fifth matrix pass, that normally requires very specialised hardware, from a simple combat drug.

Actually, No... Physical Pasases ONLY AFFECT THE PHYSICAL WORLD... You could use them in AR, to be sure, but you cannot use them in VR. The worlds are seperate...

Where does it specifically say that this is Physical only?

Seriously? Why can't we ever get past this kind of thing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Before you go, 'mwa ha, it says *cold sim*!"…

That seems pretty clear to me.

curses! Y!

You Ninja

First off, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I like the idea of character's designing their own hardware and software. I am of the opinion, though, that you are making it trivial. Software programming has pretty decent threshold ratings for writing new code (and intervals). Why wouldn't they be similar for hardware? Those thresholds you mentioned are for knowledge like "Who made the first commlink?", not "What are the precise schematics for a Singularity Commlink?" I'd be all for a character using their knowledge skills (with an appropriately high threshold of, say, Rating^2 or something) with an appropriately long interval (weeks to months) to design one themselves...but not for them to just know it by plugging in a knowsoft.

And Fastjack's the end-all-be-all of hackers. Of course he can do it. I don't expect even he, however, can create a miltech commlink out of toaster parts. (MacGuyver-Jack, maybe...but FastJack?)



Of course there are unique parts that only appear in high end commlinks. That's why they're high end. I'll give you that if you take apart a rating 3 device, you could easily make a rating 3 commlink. But you're saying that you can take the chips from your smartlink, combine it with the device control from your microwave oven, and viola, you've got a rating 8 commlink? Seriously?

damn foiled before i could even finish the hijinx

oh, no, you're still capped at 4 passes, as thats the limit unless you have a very specific piece of ruling that overrides it (simsense accelerator, advanced overclocking).

What it IS useful for is getting more Physical initiative passes, especially if you plan on going Macro/Multiprocessing/Mesh reality. Jazz and cram will put you up to 4 VR and 3 Physical passes, with two complex actions per pass with that setup. Thats not shabby at ALL.
This distinction is important because Mesh Reality limits how you spend your actions, depening on how fast you are in either world.

Silly people. No, i wasn't suggesting you can go over 4 passes.

Okay, let me clarify. I can see where my original post might have made it seem trivial and that's not exactly what I mean. For you average script kiddie who ditches Logic programming will be nearly impossible and his hardware designing skills will be limited to very simple devices. The kind of dedicated hacker I'm referring to here has Encephelon, Neural Nanites, and PuSHeD and probably a decent Logic and Cerebral Enhancements (because once you have the hacking cyberware, why wouldn't you decide to just own every Logic skill?). Now I'm also pretty sure in Arsenal there are rules for a guy finding design specs on the Matrix (a Data Search as I recall). But yeah, Hackers with the proper cyberware should be able to absolutely dominate any Logic related test. For Hardware (AFB) the interval time is 1 day, the primary limitation is the threshold, which a cybered up Hacker can easily beat. I don't think the Knowledge check is as important as you think, you're looking at a character with silly dice who can find plans on the Matrix and has a copy of what he wants to build.


Okay, let me clarify again. I certainly don't think you could build a rating 8 commlink. However, I certainly think someone with a decent hardware skill could take the computer parts from the toaster, the TV, the microwave, and the cleaning drone, jury rig them to the home's central terminal, and get a rating 4-5 commlink (on the hardware side). Yes, it's probably going to look hideous and parts might occasionally catch on fire but it'll work. That's what I mean. And sure, you wouldn't carry it around with you but why wouldn't you just slave it and leave it under the floorboards anyway. And up until War!, Rating 5 was pretty darn good. 'Course you could have linked all those devices together and gotten comparable processing power. Why when you physically combine them wouldn't the Response and Signal increase?

I guess my main point is this. The primary limitation to building something is the threshold and the interval. With hardware, the interval is a day and the threshold isn't significant because hackers will, almost accidentally, dominate any Logic-linked skill test. So while, for various reasons, there may be other roadblocks, the primary limitation to building your own hardware simply isn't significant.

Now some of this is beside the point. On Saint Sithney's original point, these are some specific improvements to the commlink from Unwired and the thresholds and costs are clear and thresholds easily reachable by a hacker.

I *think* we actually agree on a few things, but we're talking about different things at different times. If they want to build an existing item (which I believe originally was a simsense booster or accelerator), they'd have to find the schematics for the device. I'd imagine the schematics would be difficult to find, as the IP is more valuable than the actual item, but I was arguing that the Availability to find one through normal legwork channels would be the same, at least, as the original item. Using data search, as you said, could also apply. I'm also AFB atm, so I don't know what the threshold for that would be (I do know that AR plans give a +4 to the threshold). You're right: for a good hacker, that should be easily obtainable. The GM could also just make it a mini-run/hack for them to obtain the schematics, if it's something particular they want.

If the player wanted to design their own hardware, for whatever reason, then I'd say the knowledge skills would come into play. And for that I'd say the test should be more like the Programming rules; i.e. long intervals and moderately high thresholds based on the rating of the hardware. In most cases, it'd be easier to just obtain the schematics (i.e. for most normal hardware), but for miltech, it might actually be easier (or perhaps more satisfying) to design your own. That's mostly up to the GM.



As all the main book commlinks have no Availability that I can see, I don't see any reason to think that the parts for them would not be readily available (as the commlinks themselves are readily available). The only limitation would be the schematics, or design, which we talked about above.

Originally I think this was about the Simsense booster/accelerator add-ons: one costs 65,000, and IIRC is 8R availability, while the latter is 15,000 and 14 Availability. I was arguing that these two pieces would need to have some sort of special hardware not found in common electronics (hence their price tags, and Availabilities) like a special chipset or whatnot, that would require an Availability test. 50% of 65,000 would be a LOT of toasters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Note that the Availability isn't all that daunting, even for a part-time face with 10 dice.

It's when you start talking about the even higher end electronics (rating 6+ commlinks) that it becomes important to enforce this, else any hacker with a decent logic-attribute and B/R skills will just build themselves a rating 10 commlink after his first run (or two, perhaps).

------
The real issue is controlling the influx of high-rating gear, really. And there's two places to do that: the building of it, or the design/schematics of it. If the GM doesn't mind players having high-rating hardware early on, then by all means, make it easy.

The 'design and build novahot gear' also remains problematic from a 'realism' standpoint, because you have to assume that these massively-powerful organizations have scads of identically-talented and identically-augmented (or better, in each case). Yes, FastJack is legend, but earlier I saw the argument that 'any hacker (with brain mods, etc.)' could do these things; that simply breaks the realism.

The problem is that what Fluff wise a 5, 6 or heaven forbid 7 skill represent in power-increase, is not represented with the flat dice pool increase.


a 4 logic, 4 skill guys has 8 dice. He's a freaking pro. Yet, with the right implants he can double his dicepool.
The +4 bonus from his skill is fairly meaningless compared to the other 12 dice hes' getting.

Additionally, having a 5 skill is fluff wise meaningful, but it's 1/3 of a hit increase, at best.

I don't disagree with anything you just said. I think that means we agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Having said that, I don't think the building part is a significant barrier. The designing may be, depending on you GM.

Edit for Y:
I think it's much better for hackers to go after pre-designed schematics. They've got to be out there on the Matrix and Data Search should take care of it. I think for designing something from scratch, GMs either need to ban it entirely on the basis of realism or find some way around the massive Logic dice pool a hacker should be throwing around. Because if you set any kind of reasonable threshold (not based on realism but compared to other thresholds) the hacker will chew it up with 20-ish dice.

Welcome to the future – a place where you rarely need worry about your stupidity or incompetence because we have technology to make up for it. This situation has been developing since the industrial revolution (or, arguably, even further back).


Actually, that's the very least positive assessment of a one-die increase. Other beneficial aspects include:

– If Edge is involved then that extra die is worth 2/5 of a hit through exploding potential or 2/3 of a hit through re-rolling and exploding potential.

– Glitch and critical glitch probabilities are reduced.

– The increase in probability of success is higher for the range of less-certain tests than those that are very easy or very difficult. For example, if a DP of 8 were increased to 9 then the probability of meeting a threshold of 1 increases by 1%, for a threshold of 3 or 4 it increases by 9% and for a threshold of 6 it increases by 2%*. So that 1/3 increase is concentrated on those tests you can feasibly accomplish (but easily might not) at the expense of those tests where success is almost certain or almost impossible. This (IMO at least) is in practice very preferrable to an even increase across the range of potential thresholds, not least because very easy tasks are often not even rolled-for and very difficult tasks are often not attempted at all.

Furthermore, a bonus increase in skill has advantages over bonus increases elsewhere. Gear can be lost/stolen/broken, tech can be hacked and magic can be undone (e.g. counterspelling, background count) but skills are nigh-untouchable.

You did mention the fluff aspect, but I suspect many GMs don't really use it. A high skill rating can and should have implications beyond dice rolls. E.g. you're driving a VIP on an uneventful journey – no tests are required but if you have a high skill rating the GM may determine that the VIP had a much more comfortable ride because of it and thus becomes impressed, friendlier, more generous with their tip, etc.

* Edge and glitches excluded from calculations for simplicity.

And don't forget the effect it has on Extended tests: it's a whole extra round of tests (since each test results in a cumulative -1 DP in SR4A).

Very interesting stuff on the statistics, by the by.

Thanks, and good spot on the extended test aspect. A one-die increase will grant a total dice bonus equal to the new DP, so for extended tests (of the diminishing variety) each die increase is more beneficial than the last. Assuming you need it, that is.

Could a TM use a registered sprite's Stability power while programming malware? Seems like a great way to abuse the hurry up rules for extended tests.

Yes. Check the stability power's targets. You can use it on people's icons, as well as nodes.