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#51
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302 ![]() |
Yes the techno can do all that, and if he wants to outperform an optimized hacker he'll need to. However, technos don't really need it, just CFs and Sprites will make them quite powerful. A hacker with just programs, 1-2 commlinks, and a few agents is going to be overshadowed by a Techno with just Sprites and CFs. I'm not saying Technos don't or can't become incredibly complex. What I am saying is that there's a point where the hacker needs to break out the complicated tricky stuff to keep pace while the Techno can generally get by with just CFs, Sprites, and Submersion. You can have a very powerful techno who is still relatively simple to play, as long as your familiar with the CF and Sprite rules. Hackers can't, they need to dive into the complex end to keep pace. And if you're willing to do the paperwork in the first place, nothing stops a technomancer from breaking out all the same tricks a hacker can do as well. Sure, he may be poorer to start, but jobs bring cash money, and Technomancers can build/buy/program just like a hacker can. The advantage Hackers have is in cyberware, any of their other tricks a Technomancer can do as well, they just don't have the funds necessarily to do so at chargen. |
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#52
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 4-November 09 Member No.: 17,844 ![]() |
so with the databomb example (op 6 r12 if you CAN do that) thats pretty much telling both sides to fuck off or is there a better way to remove that bomb?
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#53
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
sure. but does a matrix focused character NEED this?! As aforementioned, it's a question of flavour I don't like the rules behind it, but I like the idea of it, to be honest. I never really wanted to different flavors of matrix characters, much less two different flavors that are relegated to the same effects if not quite the same methods. I don't mind seeing TM OR Hackers get some frills that go beyond "Got the pay data, let's go." |
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#54
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
TMs can have a r9 compiled sprite sidekick. And MiniMe can give most hackers a run for their money with a DP of 18, program rating 9, and powers. Also edge. Sprites have edge, much like spirits. They also don't have to waste actions on "dogbrain tests" like agents/pilots do when their programming doesn't know what to do. TM's can use Linking to get a permanent sprite buddy for -cheap-, compared to the benefits you stand to reap. If you can register that r9 sprite, you can keep him around for a year doing whatever. You can use this to, say, have Stability run on your bionode and icon constantly. Never, hardly ever glitch on the matrix again,(with proper threading, your dice pools should be high enough that its very, very improbably that you will critically glitch). You can then use this to turn around, and Rush Job ALL of your matrix extended tests - this includes hacking, probing, decrypting.... all sorts of stuff you can now do in half the time. Breaking encryption in under 1 turn is something a TM can do that a hacker can't easily match. This is useful for, say, hijacking a drones in-flight quickly. |
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#55
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
It's a good point but I'm not sure how applicable this is. Sure there are some files the hacker will want to try disarming himself but for a lot of this stuff you can just send an Agent. PS. How the devil did you acquire an R12 Data Bomb? I was talking about a starting TM with Res 6 threading up a Data Bomb CF to R12 with the Pavlov option. Don't forget that TMs can thread program options, so enjoy your Black Hammer with Psychotropic effects. Anyway, he puts that Bomb on a Node's ports and that Node is inaccessible forever. You send an Agent to try and disarm it, then the Agent fails, 99% of the time, and the bomb remains forever since Pavlov brings it back again and again. As for programs, there is no stated limit to what a program's rating can be, only what you can buy. Besides, a complex form is a mathematical construct, not a pile of fairy turds. If it is possible to have a CF that functions at a R99, then it is possible to have a program functioning at a R99 if you've got a system to support it. Sure you can say, "But SS! Resonance is a pile of fairy turds!" To which I can only say "NO U!" Maybe it's evolutionary code sped into existence though quantum computing. I don't know. But until someone tells me that the Matrix is now magicland, then there is nothing stopping math from being math, and until I read programs can not be more advanced than rating ____, then there is no hard cap. The coding rules say, clearly, that the program being created must be able to potentially run on the system being used to code it. Therefore, you can, with a R6 system program a R12 program with R6 optimization, because that program will run on that system. If you say that options are separate from programs, then there's nothing stopping you from programming the Optimization option first. With a R10 system, you could code a R20 program with 10 levels of Optimization. That is the new maximum for potential program ratings. Meanwhile, CFs can be raised indefinitely with karma. |
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#56
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
More than anything else, I think that just demonstrates how stupid the Pavlov option is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Actually… you do code options separately, and I can't imagine how you'd code the Optimization *first*… before the program exists. I guess you *could* argue that the book doesn't specifically say you can't program options for programs that don't yet exist, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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#57
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Actually… you do code options separately, and I can't imagine how you'd code the Optimization *first*… before the program exists. I guess you *could* argue that the book doesn't specifically say you can't program options for programs that don't yet exist, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It also doesn't say that a given option needs to be specific for a given program, so you could just purchase Opt 3 and Ergonomic options once and put them on all your programs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) But, re-reading the options entry, they are actually hard capped at 6, so the maximum a program could be run at is R16. |
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#58
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Right, so I see you agree that only silliness lies in the idea of 'independent Program Options'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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#59
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 4-August 10 Member No.: 18,889 ![]() |
And if you're willing to do the paperwork in the first place, nothing stops a technomancer from breaking out all the same tricks a hacker can do as well. Sure, he may be poorer to start, but jobs bring cash money, and Technomancers can build/buy/program just like a hacker can. The advantage Hackers have is in cyberware, any of their other tricks a Technomancer can do as well, they just don't have the funds necessarily to do so at chargen. Ok, I'm not sure what your point is. Here's my argument, as simple as I can make it: #1 Not everyone likes to play with malware, node slaving, tricky stuff, etc. It's a lot of bookkeeping, a lot of time, and it can really slow the game down. #2 If you don't like that stuff, there's a good reason to play a Techno, they don't need that stuff most of the time. #3 Yes, this Techno isn't "optimal", he's just likely to be more fun to play. Also, lets be clear on something. In terms of advancing during gameplay, a Techno automatically drops all their Karma into Submersion. To duplicate the hacker side, the Techno will have to spend a good portion of their cash and "work time". If we're trying to theoretically optimize I see some point but I'm struggling to think of any Matrix side challenge which would warrant spending basically all you resources at chargen and then the ones acquired during gameplay. Edit for SS and Y: The theoretical max for a program is 16 and that's only if you accept that you can have an Optimization option affect your coding. That's a stretch and purely in GM territory. |
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#60
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
… What else is the Technomancer doing with his cash? He's using his Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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#61
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 4-August 10 Member No.: 18,889 ![]() |
… What else is the Technomancer doing with his cash? He's using his Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Might try to get his hand on some Milspec armor, get some contacts, buy a vehicle, anything to take away from the fact that the Techno, by literally putting everything into the Matrix, is gonna be pretty horrible outside of it. |
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#62
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Well, sure, but I thought the exercise was a dedicated hacking character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point was that he does have the option of sinking cash into hacking, in addition to karma.
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#63
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 4-November 09 Member No.: 17,844 ![]() |
does anyone have the link to those cheat sheets on actions that were being tossed around the forums a bit ago? I need to go through and redo mine but it would be great if i could work off the others.
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#64
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
I was talking about a starting TM with Res 6 threading up a Data Bomb CF to R12 with the Pavlov option. Don't forget that TMs can thread program options, so enjoy your Black Hammer with Psychotropic effects. Anyway, he puts that Bomb on a Node's ports and that Node is inaccessible forever. You send an Agent to try and disarm it, then the Agent fails, 99% of the time, and the bomb remains forever since Pavlov brings it back again and again. Not necessarily true... Reboot the system, and the Pavlov goes away... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) |
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#65
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Well, sure, but I thought the exercise was a dedicated hacking character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point was that he does have the option of sinking cash into hacking, in addition to karma. But a Dedicated Hacking Character probably has all the cool gear and support skills that the Technomancer does not... at least that is the case at our table... Technomancer is a good Hacker, but nothing else, the Hacker is also a pretty decent Face, a Comparable Street Samurai, and a whiz bang Rigger to boot... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) |
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#66
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
While that's possible, Tymeaus, it doesn't make any sense. My point was specifically that the Technomancer can spend his money on the same things as the hacker, while his karma boosts his Resonance stuff. Both characters are dedicated hacking characters here.
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#67
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 25-August 10 Member No.: 18,969 ![]() |
So you are telling me that your Hacker characters have never hacked a system that had a Data Bomb on the access port? Wow, happens to us all the time... The only time I hack a node which I have not sufficiently analyzed, is when it is life or death. If your friends are dying, then it is worth dying yourself to hack an unanalyzed node. Otherwise I run repeated analyzes with both myself and a sprite until I am satisfied there is no Data Bomb on a node. Why you may ask? Because you are going to DIE if you hit a rating 6 Data Bomb. Not even rating 12. Rating 6 is on average 21 DV, which will skoosh you. It only makes sense to measure 3600 (one hour) times, and cut once when you will die if you cut wrong. The better question is, how many times do you survive hacking a system with a Data Bomb on its access port? A rating 12 Data Bomb does 12d6 damage, on average 42DV. Yeah I expect people to look before you leap with that kind of damage. |
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#68
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
While that's possible, Tymeaus, it doesn't make any sense. My point was specifically that the Technomancer can spend his money on the same things as the hacker, while his karma boosts his Resonance stuff. Both characters are dedicated hacking characters here. Absolutely no doubt about that... Sorry if I misunderstood. The fact is, though, that a Dedicated Hacker is much more diverse than a dedicated Technomancer... And while the Technomancer can spend his money to cover those things that his Technomantic abilities do not, it does not let him branch out like the Hacker can... Anyways... We seem to be on the same page for the most part... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) |
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#69
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
The only time I hack a node which I have not sufficiently analyzed, is when it is life or death. If your friends are dying, then it is worth dying yourself to hack an unanalyzed node. Otherwise I run repeated analyzes with both myself and a sprite until I am satisfied there is no Data Bomb on a node. Why you may ask? Because you are going to DIE if you hit a rating 6 Data Bomb. Not even rating 12. Rating 6 is on average 21 DV, which will skoosh you. It only makes sense to measure 3600 (one hour) times, and cut once when you will die if you cut wrong. The better question is, how many times do you survive hacking a system with a Data Bomb on its access port? A rating 12 Data Bomb does 12d6 damage, on average 42DV. Yeah I expect people to look before you leap with that kind of damage. No arguments here... I have never seen the need for a Databomb greater than rating 7... Anything more is just WAY overkill (and sometimes Ratings that are less still kill)... But it is very entertaining to me because many players do not bother with the analysis of a node portal (or data file) prior to hacking/accessing... they just assume that everything is okay. It has killed more than one character... Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#70
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 25-August 10 Member No.: 18,969 ![]() |
No arguments here... It sounds like we agree then, that Data Bomb is not a balancing factor between TM and Hackers. Stupid TMs may get killed by Data Bomb, but a hacker also can get crashed by a Data Bomb (or killed if they are hot simming). TMs are actually better at dealing with the problem, as sprites can disarm better than agents can. |
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#71
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302 ![]() |
Absolutely no doubt about that... Sorry if I misunderstood. The fact is, though, that a Dedicated Hacker is much more diverse than a dedicated Technomancer... And while the Technomancer can spend his money to cover those things that his Technomantic abilities do not, it does not let him branch out like the Hacker can... Anyways... We seem to be on the same page for the most part... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Two submersion grades to get Biowires, and IIRC the name Overclock (no, that's not right, but the one that boosts the 'mancer's offline speed) and you have a Technomancer who can process skillsofts and gets multiple IPs. Threading brings him the ability to get software to augment his already good charisma, and boom, Face time. Rigging is not at all hard to parallel into, either, and sprites can, as mentions, make excellent drivers. Especially on Saturdays. Not every technomancer would do these things, true, but not every hacker is going to diversify into Face either. The possibility for diversity still exists in the technomancer, though. |
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#72
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 ![]() |
… What else is the Technomancer doing with his cash? He's using his Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Synthahol and JoyToys! Jeeze, this is Shadowrun after all! |
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#73
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 ![]() |
Why is the Techno paying for Synthahol? He can just have a Liquor delivery truck deliver a case to the wrong address. He's a techno, it's not like hacking some Alcohol Importer's delivery system is hard.
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#74
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
Two submersion grades to get Biowires, and IIRC the name Overclock (no, that's not right, but the one that boosts the 'mancer's offline speed) and you have a Technomancer who can process skillsofts and gets multiple IPs. Threading brings him the ability to get software to augment his already good charisma, and boom, Face time. Rigging is not at all hard to parallel into, either, and sprites can, as mentions, make excellent drivers. Especially on Saturdays. Not every technomancer would do these things, true, but not every hacker is going to diversify into Face either. The possibility for diversity still exists in the technomancer, though. Yeah and going for high charisma dryad technoshaman makes you a "good enough for most situations" face straight out of chargen. |
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#75
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302 ![]() |
Dryad? That's a wee bit intensive on the BP, neh? I'd stick to human. The idea is to flesh things out as time goes, to diversify, as presumably the group has a primary Face. I'm happy never being a pornomancer, but being able to talk my way into a building's utility room.
Thought of another benefit of being a techomancer... you can do all of your tricks skyclad. And further, without cyberwear (the equalizer in the hack in the buff race being an implant commlink) you can walk into a secure building, hand over your commlink, and still be good to go. |
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