Ok I've seen this topic bounced around lately but why exactly, given everything a hacker can start with, pirate, build etc play a techno except as a rigger or stealth specialist? I was thinking of making a drone god out of the techno as it seems to be scary good at this as well as a sprite summoner (relying on 6 fault sprites and 6 agents with various nasty programs to take up the enemy response). However it seems that the hackers can do alot (not quite as high DP ofc) that technos can do without getting raped on bp and resources. What am I missing that allows the technos to function as The One in their natural element? What are the situations where a techno really rapes a hacker?

One obvious situation is if you take a hackers gear away. Can't really do that to a techno.

Threading is one. Submersion is the other big one.

Also, TMs can access Resonance Realms. This doesn't usually have a big impact on games, but a GM might do so. Theoretically, you could potentially access any info that ever existed on a device connected to The Net.

I support your point. TMs win at high Stealth, where Hackers are limited to 6, and some fun echoes. But nobody really needs resonance trodes, do you?
you can search the forum for hundreds of TM vs Hacker and Adept vs. Sam diskussions.

I will say something obvious:

Flavor.

Enough threads exist to support the viability of maxed out hackers that can kick a technomancer's ass in cybercombat, they have more dice for everything and ca do all of it while chewing gum (at no less than 5 IPs!).

However, given my experience, the flavor you get form one or the other is completely different. Technomancers relate differently to the matrix than hackers, their backgrounds are less /technical/, typically, and in the long run will change more. Like some already said submersion and echoes will mechanically differentiate the character advancement over simply accruing bigger bonuses from better cyberware, bioware, nanites or what-have-you. Now, I am not saying that its better to submerge, but it does make a bigger impact in the RP aspect than simply buying some better 'ware. This, I mean, in most games.

So, if you simply want a mechanical answer, go to the threads, made by people who know the system much better than I do and can put up more optimized characters.

If you want an honest answer: Technomancers can hack, so you will not feel like you are unable to do /anything/ for the team. They can do the job good enough and do it with a particular taste. If you like said taste go for it. Now, out of the box, hackers can probably throw more dice and have more programs at a higher rating, if that's more your game... you know the answer.

TMs have a great deal of absolute effects that only other TMs (and sprites) can deal with. An example of this is that they are unhackable by mundane hackers, or any of the absolute effect sprite powers. The crack sprite is much more effective than a hacker or TM if you don't care about it being caught.

Well, one game where the team was in a deep jungle area with no Matrix access, the Technomancer was begging to use my Hacker's satellite uplink, even for like five minutes, like an addict begging for a hit from a dealer.

Oh, wait, this is a thread about why you SHOULD play a TM.

Hmm.

Lemme think about that.




-k

Why wouldn't/couldn't the TM have a satellite uplink?

It's mostly flavor, in my opinion, and as others have said. TM's tend to be more specialized towards the Matrix, while Hackers can often diversify more easily into real-space facets. One is a cash sink, the other's a karma sink. One deals in tech, the other deals in art. Left brain, right brain, etc., etc. One is spontaneous (threading, sprites), the other is more logical and planned.

I think TM's have the greater long term potential, over hackers, as technically there's nothing special about a hacker's abilities that would prevent a TM from being able to do them.

Here's a reason: ROLE PLAYING!

TMs are the new "EVULZ" of the Sixth World, and if not actively hunted, are certainly feared by the general populous.

Oh, right, sorry, "Role Playing" is a four-letter word here, isn't it?

Just skinlink the damn Satlink and everything is dandy.

Touch someone, take him with you in VR, thread your Black Hammer with a Psychotrope option.
You can do more than with mind manipulation spells and it can last much longer.

Hell just taking someone under is usually good enough to kill them in combet. (Granted, you'll be out cold to sooo)

sure. but does a matrix focused character NEED this?! As aforementioned, it's a question of flavour

It's probably the most effective way to take out a cybered-up Fomorri with astral hazing and mil-spec armor.*

Just sayin.


*Not including things that PCs could theoretically acquire but would end up with the GM laughing in their face.

Dunno why he didn't have one. Maybe he was of the "I don't need silly Matrix gear! I R Matrix God!" mentality.

I think the number one advantage of a TM is flexibility. They can spin up matrix tools they need on the fly like nobody else. If a Hacker is caught without a program he needs for a task, he's just mostly screwed.



-k

So you're saying TM's suck.. because TM players are raving idiots?
That's not really a good answer

When a cop pops a hacker and says "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The hacker is screwed and is likely AT LEAST out a good 40-50k. Double screwed if he has nasty black programs on there.

When a cop pops a TM and says, "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The TM hands the cop his el-cheapo commlink and is likely not screwed. That link should have nothing interesting on it and be easily thrown away.

I have to second the Resonance Realms comment. I know a lot of GMs ignore the Astral/Resonance quests but if you have a willing GM both vastly increase the power of their respective class by a thousand-fold.

yeah i like the whole flavor of being a techno just wanted some hard evidence that i wont get thrashed by a hacker. Another thing, can a techno even be attacked by a hacker since (if you use that optional rule in unwired) the techno cant be hacked or really even detected by another non-resonance being?

pg 137-138 unwired

Your bionode can't be hacked, but you can be attacked when you're in the matrix, hacking something

ah ok i was wondering about that. What about detection though? Just using that analyze rule how often will a hacker break through that technos crazy stealth?

show me a hacker, that doesn't hand the officer HIS el-cheapo commlink.

Quoted for Truth...
Flavor actually menas a lot, at least to me anyways...

Well, Analyze vs. Stealth is a contested roll... and I have seen a Technomancer with a Stealth of 13 detected by a Rating 8 system before, so it is not always a sure thing...

That depends.

A hacker is going to be running Computer+analyze:
Best Case Scenario:
Computer(6) + Specialty (2) + Analyze(6) + Custom Interface (1) + Optimized (Analyze) (1) + Analytical Mind (2) + Hot Sim (2) = 20

Threading: 12d6=4hits. Roll Willpower+Resonance:12d6=4 hits = 0 damage taken.
vs
Hacking(6) + Stealth(6) + Threading (4) = 16

So in an opposed test, an optimized Hacker has the advantage.
Where the TM has the advantage is firewall+analyze (10) test. 12 Dice, takes 3 rounds to pop, vs a hacker gets caught in 2 max, and CAN be caught in 1 relatively often.

yeah but if the hacker is running with 5 ips and mute then its moot isnt it? or is that only in instances where there isnt a shit ton of IC plus the node scanning for intrusions?

if you're hacking on the fly (which is the only time where the 5 IP come into play) the System gets to roll an extended test of firewall+analysis(Stealth Rating) /every/ time the Hacker rolls his hacking+exploit.

So it's a race:
Hacking+exploit(Firewall+account modifier,complex action) vs Firewall+Analysis(stealth)
Account Modifier is: Security Account(+3), Admin Account(+6)
Do you get your successes before they do.

Hacking(6)+Exploit(6)+VR(2)+specialty(2)+EncephalonII(2)+PuSheD(1)+Analytical Mind(2) 21 DP
You're getting on average 6 hits a roll, if you're a stud. The System is getting 4.

"'Bubba the Love Troll Does Cell Block B', ew!!!" *Keeps watching anyhow*

Hackers will also have Secondary CommLinks for just such an occasion. That said, the Hacker in my group got nailed, got scanned for Cybernetics, found his implanted CommLink, and they vacuumed it via his Datajack.

I then put him on a vague time limit until his self-performed "I encrypt EVERYTHING" was broken, after he was busted out of the Prison Bus when his SIN was borked.

I've still never seen an explanation of how Resonance Trodes actually works, and where you 'drag the victim into VR' *to*.

I always assumed it was the nearest node you could freely access.

So, it's like Ghostbusters? That's one possibility, but the total lack of guidance is the problem. Would that mean you'd carry disposable/gimped/trapped 'storage' commlinks?

Another possible option is the bionode, which creates a host of contradictions about who can be in a bionode, etc.

Two people have said it, but I shall re-iterate and expand upon the subject a touch.

There is a mechanical reason why I made my merc comms specialist a technomancer (there are plenty of roleplaying reasons): a technomancer's living node is unhackable by anyone but another technomancer or a sprite (oft overlooked, but yes, free sprites do have the ressonance signature needed, AIs I'm not sure about). This leaves an increadibly small pool of people able to get at what is inside of the head of the technomancer. Now what was not mentioned is that anything slaved to the technomancer's living node is also afforded the same protection. So your droneomancer's drone network, my comms guys entire teams' commlinks/tacnet, all are only to be touched by another technomancer or ressonance capable entity. That is one hell of an advantage over a hacker, who, despite all the encryption in the world, all the IC, all the defenses, is still vulnerable to any determined person/entity with the ability to touch the Matrix.

Another reason to pick a TM: Morning Sickness all over Forum Boards is HILARIOUS!

Note that Digital Heroin's comments only apply to wireless hacking. In addition, the subscription counts *do* eventually add up.

It's true that this is a categorical advantage in the theoretical sense, but I'm not sure it makes much difference in practice. Particularly in play, where the GM sends threats that match you.

A TM can have program ratings that are much better than what a hacker can hope to get.

They can hack stronger nodes without being detected due to Stealth 10+. It is very good that hackers can now compete on that front - on the high end, and in situations where "even higher" is not useful.

TMs can take out all matrix opponents except for an E-hive in a single blow. Offensive Programs have the rating figure into DV and dp.

On the defense, a Shield CF is incredibly useful, and there is no Shield Program (as far as I know).

TMs can have a r9 compiled sprite sidekick. And MiniMe can give most hackers a run for their money with a DP of 18, program rating 9, and powers.

More helps. At some point the hacker is optimal, while the TM can still advance. What will be beneficial in actual play depends on the length of your campaign and the karma and cash incomes. It also depends on the expectations regarding secondary skills.


Leaving the requested focus, there is a strong case for augmented TMs if you use karmagen. Start with resonance 4, get a stable of r4 registered sprites, Cerebral Booster 3 and a Trauma Dampener.

The strong point of a Hacker is being cheap. Get a solid link and a bunch of skills, opt out on the expensive ware. And if you go the expensive route, don´t miss out on the must-have augmentations. If others invest into technomancy, you can have Restricted Gear a few times. Suprathyroid Gland, Muscle Toner 4...

Not much difference in practice? I think someone's going to notice if someone walks up and shoves a cable into their commlink, and the same applies for a drone as well. At least, if they're not asleep at the wheel they should notice. As far as subscriptions go, sprites are wonderful at taking over if things get into a real big crunch.

I didn't mean that those paragraphs were connected. My point is that, yes, a Technomancer's node is categorically unhackable for mundanes, while *any* other hacker's nodes are theoretically hackable. However, *in practice*, unhackable 'enough' is enough.

If you want to devote your sprites to that task, sure.

Fun, for the most part. The problem is that the effectiveness of a hacker is inversely proportional to how simple the hacker is play and the Matrix rules are already the most complex in the game.

An optimized hacker who is able to take on a optimized submerged techno is going to have at least a half dozen nodes (although I'd really recommend a dozen) with complex security arrangements, node architecture, at least several agents running various tasks, a massive botnet, and a stable of various malware. And that just isn't fun for most people; you've moved from being a lone hacker into the manager of your own network. Even if you're having fun with that, the other players at the table probably won't like watching it.

Take something fairly simple like lifestyle. With Unwired you can spoof your lifestyle, or more importantly, have an agent spoof your lifestyle for you. Pretty simple. Now add in Runner's companion and there's some very interesting lifestyle options you can have. And why not, since you're not going to pay for them and things like Feng-shui provide obvious direct advantages. You get a second and third lifestyle, say a workshop area and a safehouse. Obvious advantages and no cost. You can even pay for your teammates houses if you want. At some point though, all of that will add up and you'll need another agent also spoofing lifestyle. It's not a huge problem, you have plenty of downtime and you can always pull your agents off spoofing to help you, or order them to stop spoofing and defend the node if XYZ happens. At this point you've stopped playing Shadowrun and started managing your imaginary agent network. There are clear and significant advantages to this way of playing but don't ever try to do this at the gaming table. You can do this after the game with your GM over e-mail and that can be fun but I'd guess the number of people who want to do that are vanishingly small.

As a theoretical exercise, this stuff is very interesting. As a practical exercise, I would recommend you take all of those discussions with a mountain of salt. If the GM is good, the defenses on the job will always be challenging but beatable whether you're a script kiddie or an Uber-Techno with a Nexi full of worms and trojans.

Surely almost all of that applies to Technomancers, plus they're worrying about sprites (a minor, yet addition housekeeping concern). Any hacking character can be very complex. You can also do either very simply, though I'd say that the 'drop-in hacker' is more simple than a 'simple' Technomancer, in addition to being a much smaller investment. In exchange, the Technomancer (as we all already know) has that high long-term potential + unique tricks.

Yes the techno can do all that, and if he wants to outperform an optimized hacker he'll need to. However, technos don't really need it, just CFs and Sprites will make them quite powerful. A hacker with just programs, 1-2 commlinks, and a few agents is going to be overshadowed by a Techno with just Sprites and CFs.

I'm not saying Technos don't or can't become incredibly complex. What I am saying is that there's a point where the hacker needs to break out the complicated tricky stuff to keep pace while the Techno can generally get by with just CFs, Sprites, and Submersion. You can have a very powerful techno who is still relatively simple to play, as long as your familiar with the CF and Sprite rules. Hackers can't, they need to dive into the complex end to keep pace.

Honestly, I'm not sure at what point that's true. There *could* well an area when the hacker needs to be more complex than the Technomancer, but if they both end up in the same boat… *shrug*.

When I look around at an optimization thread, I see technos talking about the power of CFs and Sprites while hackers start to talk about malware and multiple commlinks.

The simple problem, in my mind, is that a decent hacker with all the ware has very few places to expand after chargen except in terms of malware, program options, multiple commlinks, and other trickery. Technos have plenty of room to expand their powers. Therefore, hackers will almost always be the first to experiment with, say, trojans. Come across a R8 node you have to hack. A powerful techno can give it a shot counting on their stealth but the Hacker needs something else. Maybe a Trojan, maybe the mute option, but the hacker needs more than his dicepool. The techno won't need to worry about that unless the game gets really crazy.

In a normal game this will rarely come up but around R6-R7 nodes a hacker will start having problems unless he finds a technical edge. Technos can keep going until, well, quite honestly I've never seen a techno try to hack something like an R8-R9 node but I'd imagine that's the point where they'd start to breakdown.

Stealth for getting in is pretty much Moot. It's the opposed tests where problems come up.

On that note, any common program is easy enough to code that a Hacker should be able to put together about one R12 program per downtime. Command, Analyze, Encrypt, Scan, Whatever. All cake. As the hacker hits delta-cash, he can buy that R10 chip and start moving into a set of R20 programs to keep up with the Res 8 TM. It's a rough scene, but it's still possible with a hyper-focused Hacker.

So, Hackers can compete to an extent, but lemme real quick tell you where that competition just dies. Data Bomb.

The Data Bomb is an opposed test with Hacking + Disarm on one side and Data Bomb x2 on the other end.
You drop a R12 Data Bomb, and that's 24 dice. Even if you code a massive R12 Disarm program, which isn't a real priority, and have a cyber-adept with 9 Hacking + Encephalon and PuSHeD, you're looking at a best case of 50% chance of getting blown the hell up. It's like an Edge sponge.

I'm not sure about this. The problem is that the system you're programming on has to be capable of running the program, which means for a R10 program you need a nexus with System 10. That's tough (probably, haven't read War!). There might be a way around it with the Optimization option but that's tricky. And of course, Hacking programs take longer to code but aren't really any more difficult.


It's a good point but I'm not sure how applicable this is. Sure there are some files the hacker will want to try disarming himself but for a lot of this stuff you can just send an Agent.
PS. How the devil did you acquire an R12 Data Bomb?

There's no such think as a rating 12 program, rating 10 is the max.

I think he was referencing a Rating 12 Data Bomb complex form (likely threaded/sprite fueled up to that level).

And an Optimization 6 R12 Program, would let you run on a System 6 system.

No one opens their own databombs. That is what sprites and agents are for. If you analyze the file/node you get to know if there is a databomb, and you never open something you haven't analyzed. What's important is there is nothing that a hacker can do that a TM can't do, and do TM tricks on top of that. being a TM basically just takes karma, so you can invest your money in drones, malware, comlinks, agents, skillwires etc.

So you are telling me that your Hacker characters have never hacked a system that had a Data Bomb on the access port? Wow, happens to us all the time...

An Agent cannot hack an entry for you unless he is carrying a Trojan for that specific purpose (and he still has to make the hack to successfully place the Trojan), and honestly, the character I play is a MUCH better hacker than the Agents he has (which are Rating 6, with Rating 6 Programs). Max dice an agent throws is 12, and I edge him out with my 15 Dice (17 if I am in Hot VR)... Just sayin'

And if the character is better than the Agent, then I would bet the character does the disarming, because there is nothing more annoying than having the pay data go up in de-resolution after the agent screws up the disarming of the databomb.

Anyways...

A databomb has a much bigger chance of killing a technomancer however; Persona damage won't kill a hacker, just really piss him off. And biofeedback data bombs can't hurt agents, and I believe you can put only one data bomb on an object, so, choices - but every choice screws the technomancer.