And if you're willing to do the paperwork in the first place, nothing stops a technomancer from breaking out all the same tricks a hacker can do as well. Sure, he may be poorer to start, but jobs bring cash money, and Technomancers can build/buy/program just like a hacker can. The advantage Hackers have is in cyberware, any of their other tricks a Technomancer can do as well, they just don't have the funds necessarily to do so at chargen.

so with the databomb example (op 6 r12 if you CAN do that) thats pretty much telling both sides to fuck off or is there a better way to remove that bomb?

I don't like the rules behind it, but I like the idea of it, to be honest. I never really wanted to different flavors of matrix characters, much less two different flavors that are relegated to the same effects if not quite the same methods. I don't mind seeing TM OR Hackers get some frills that go beyond "Got the pay data, let's go."

Also edge. Sprites have edge, much like spirits. They also don't have to waste actions on "dogbrain tests" like agents/pilots do when their programming doesn't know what to do.

TM's can use Linking to get a permanent sprite buddy for -cheap-, compared to the benefits you stand to reap. If you can register that r9 sprite, you can keep him around for a year doing whatever.

You can use this to, say, have Stability run on your bionode and icon constantly. Never, hardly ever glitch on the matrix again,(with proper threading, your dice pools should be high enough that its very, very improbably that you will critically glitch). You can then use this to turn around, and Rush Job ALL of your matrix extended tests - this includes hacking, probing, decrypting.... all sorts of stuff you can now do in half the time.
Breaking encryption in under 1 turn is something a TM can do that a hacker can't easily match.
This is useful for, say, hijacking a drones in-flight quickly.

I was talking about a starting TM with Res 6 threading up a Data Bomb CF to R12 with the Pavlov option. Don't forget that TMs can thread program options, so enjoy your Black Hammer with Psychotropic effects.

Anyway, he puts that Bomb on a Node's ports and that Node is inaccessible forever. You send an Agent to try and disarm it, then the Agent fails, 99% of the time, and the bomb remains forever since Pavlov brings it back again and again.



As for programs, there is no stated limit to what a program's rating can be, only what you can buy. Besides, a complex form is a mathematical construct, not a pile of fairy turds. If it is possible to have a CF that functions at a R99, then it is possible to have a program functioning at a R99 if you've got a system to support it. Sure you can say, "But SS! Resonance is a pile of fairy turds!" To which I can only say "NO U!" Maybe it's evolutionary code sped into existence though quantum computing. I don't know. But until someone tells me that the Matrix is now magicland, then there is nothing stopping math from being math, and until I read programs can not be more advanced than rating ____, then there is no hard cap.

The coding rules say, clearly, that the program being created must be able to potentially run on the system being used to code it. Therefore, you can, with a R6 system program a R12 program with R6 optimization, because that program will run on that system. If you say that options are separate from programs, then there's nothing stopping you from programming the Optimization option first. With a R10 system, you could code a R20 program with 10 levels of Optimization. That is the new maximum for potential program ratings. Meanwhile, CFs can be raised indefinitely with karma.

More than anything else, I think that just demonstrates how stupid the Pavlov option is.

Actually… you do code options separately, and I can't imagine how you'd code the Optimization *first*… before the program exists. I guess you *could* argue that the book doesn't specifically say you can't program options for programs that don't yet exist, though.

It also doesn't say that a given option needs to be specific for a given program, so you could just purchase Opt 3 and Ergonomic options once and put them on all your programs.

But, re-reading the options entry, they are actually hard capped at 6, so the maximum a program could be run at is R16.

Right, so I see you agree that only silliness lies in the idea of 'independent Program Options'.

Ok, I'm not sure what your point is. Here's my argument, as simple as I can make it:
#1 Not everyone likes to play with malware, node slaving, tricky stuff, etc. It's a lot of bookkeeping, a lot of time, and it can really slow the game down.
#2 If you don't like that stuff, there's a good reason to play a Techno, they don't need that stuff most of the time.
#3 Yes, this Techno isn't "optimal", he's just likely to be more fun to play.

Also, lets be clear on something. In terms of advancing during gameplay, a Techno automatically drops all their Karma into Submersion. To duplicate the hacker side, the Techno will have to spend a good portion of their cash and "work time". If we're trying to theoretically optimize I see some point but I'm struggling to think of any Matrix side challenge which would warrant spending basically all you resources at chargen and then the ones acquired during gameplay.

Edit for SS and Y:
The theoretical max for a program is 16 and that's only if you accept that you can have an Optimization option affect your coding. That's a stretch and purely in GM territory.

… What else is the Technomancer doing with his cash? He's using his Karma.

Might try to get his hand on some Milspec armor, get some contacts, buy a vehicle, anything to take away from the fact that the Techno, by literally putting everything into the Matrix, is gonna be pretty horrible outside of it.

Well, sure, but I thought the exercise was a dedicated hacking character. My point was that he does have the option of sinking cash into hacking, in addition to karma.

does anyone have the link to those cheat sheets on actions that were being tossed around the forums a bit ago? I need to go through and redo mine but it would be great if i could work off the others.

Not necessarily true... Reboot the system, and the Pavlov goes away...

But a Dedicated Hacking Character probably has all the cool gear and support skills that the Technomancer does not... at least that is the case at our table... Technomancer is a good Hacker, but nothing else, the Hacker is also a pretty decent Face, a Comparable Street Samurai, and a whiz bang Rigger to boot...

While that's possible, Tymeaus, it doesn't make any sense. My point was specifically that the Technomancer can spend his money on the same things as the hacker, while his karma boosts his Resonance stuff. Both characters are dedicated hacking characters here.

The only time I hack a node which I have not sufficiently analyzed, is when it is life or death. If your friends are dying, then it is worth dying yourself to hack an unanalyzed node. Otherwise I run repeated analyzes with both myself and a sprite until I am satisfied there is no Data Bomb on a node. Why you may ask?

Because you are going to DIE if you hit a rating 6 Data Bomb. Not even rating 12. Rating 6 is on average 21 DV, which will skoosh you. It only makes sense to measure 3600 (one hour) times, and cut once when you will die if you cut wrong. The better question is, how many times do you survive hacking a system with a Data Bomb on its access port?

A rating 12 Data Bomb does 12d6 damage, on average 42DV. Yeah I expect people to look before you leap with that kind of damage.

Absolutely no doubt about that... Sorry if I misunderstood. The fact is, though, that a Dedicated Hacker is much more diverse than a dedicated Technomancer... And while the Technomancer can spend his money to cover those things that his Technomantic abilities do not, it does not let him branch out like the Hacker can...

Anyways... We seem to be on the same page for the most part...

No arguments here... I have never seen the need for a Databomb greater than rating 7... Anything more is just WAY overkill (and sometimes Ratings that are less still kill)... But it is very entertaining to me because many players do not bother with the analysis of a node portal (or data file) prior to hacking/accessing... they just assume that everything is okay. It has killed more than one character...

Anyways...

It sounds like we agree then, that Data Bomb is not a balancing factor between TM and Hackers. Stupid TMs may get killed by Data Bomb, but a hacker also can get crashed by a Data Bomb (or killed if they are hot simming). TMs are actually better at dealing with the problem, as sprites can disarm better than agents can.

Two submersion grades to get Biowires, and IIRC the name Overclock (no, that's not right, but the one that boosts the 'mancer's offline speed) and you have a Technomancer who can process skillsofts and gets multiple IPs. Threading brings him the ability to get software to augment his already good charisma, and boom, Face time. Rigging is not at all hard to parallel into, either, and sprites can, as mentions, make excellent drivers. Especially on Saturdays. Not every technomancer would do these things, true, but not every hacker is going to diversify into Face either. The possibility for diversity still exists in the technomancer, though.

Synthahol and JoyToys! Jeeze, this is Shadowrun after all!

Why is the Techno paying for Synthahol? He can just have a Liquor delivery truck deliver a case to the wrong address. He's a techno, it's not like hacking some Alcohol Importer's delivery system is hard.

Yeah and going for high charisma dryad technoshaman makes you a "good enough for most situations" face straight out of chargen.

Dryad? That's a wee bit intensive on the BP, neh? I'd stick to human. The idea is to flesh things out as time goes, to diversify, as presumably the group has a primary Face. I'm happy never being a pornomancer, but being able to talk my way into a building's utility room.


Thought of another benefit of being a techomancer... you can do all of your tricks skyclad. And further, without cyberwear (the equalizer in the hack in the buff race being an implant commlink) you can walk into a secure building, hand over your commlink, and still be good to go.

No arguments, but the Technomancer needs to spend a godd deal of Karma (AND a not so insignificant bit of cash, depending) for all that, while the Hacker spends Money almost exclusively... That does make a huge difference in the end. My point is that the hacker will "top out" his capabilities earlier and will be able to broaden his abilities that much earlier, while a Technomancer will always be improving his hacking abilities to stay on par with the Hacker. Yes, they CAN (Theoretically) get to crazy levels of Threading and Compiling/Registering, but in play, it is less of an issue than the theorty craft behind it is.

It is the classic connundrum... Money vs. Karma...

I'm in agreement that the Technomancer is going to need a lot more karma than any hacker will ever need, but I don't see it as a problem. Even while he is hungry for karma, a technomancer can be spending money to equalize as well, buying programs to cover what he is not inherantly good at, setting up botnets, all those devious little hacker tricks my own brain remembers not so well. I enjoy both Hackers and Technomancers, but it's not about who hacks better to me, it's about the little tricks, the e-sensing, the sprites, the widgets. Those are what make a technomancer stand above and beyond.

Indeed... they have completely different flavors, and I enjoy both equally...

Can't say, i only use karmagen for making characters
But ofcource your right, dryad technoshaman(or normal shaman) isn't the most optimal shoice if the team has a dedicated face, but IMO pure face isn't really necessary part of a team(as you say, pornomancer isn't really needed)
And high charisma face has a great synergy with shamans(of both types)

I'm going to argue that sprites are the only thing otaku have going for them over normal deckers. Sure, otaku have Threading, but you can only Thread one CF at a time, effectively. You can get a huge stealth rating, but only at the expense of all your other programs. Summoning sprites, OTOH, gives you the edge in spades. And I mean that literally: Sprites have Edge, which Agents and Botnets do not. You can also pull the same summoning cheese for spirits that you can on sprites.

That's where you are getting into a gaming situation Cain. Does the GM allow you to roll your own Hacking + Stealth? If yes then you know when it is happening and only thread when called upon to roll. Else, everything only needs to be threaded as you use it since threading is a non-action per RAW. So you don't actually have it "at the expense" of everything else.

Also 2 submersions let you ignore your first sustained threading if you are overly concerned about it.

I notice that you also ignored the Resonance Realms in your list of TM super tricks. Note that a Resonance Quest can allow you to force a bond (or fodder to negotiate one) with a Free Sprite which can grant huge power. Widgets are also something I'd place in the realm of "Awesome trick a TM can pull if they desire."

And all of that requires massive amounts of karma, during which time the decker will have also improved his skills. The decker's core abilities will go up, while the otaku will have a neat bag of tricks. Don't forget that the otaku has to raise his Resonance, as well as his CF's, to keep up. That also requires karma.

Yeah, I try not to worry too much about the progression aspect since the costs are weighted such that it's typically only a major concern if you have a team that's really trying to go the distance or if you're hitting play with non-standard starting conditions, something I generally don't do in my games.

Because I want to play someone that actually has skill, and not some Skript Kiddie.

Hackers do not have to be Script Kiddies, though...
Especially if you use the Optional RUle for Dice Pools (Skill + Logic, Hits Capped by Programs)...

Then, if the Option is specific to the program, what is to stop it from being developed alongside as originally suggested.

Potentially run is all it needs to fit the language.

The rules stop it. I didn't write them.

Program options can be cracked and degrade in the same manner as normal programs, and copied to new programs just fine.

See Unwired 118, Coding Program Options, second paragraph: "if a character wishes to upgrade software he already has with new program options..."

That evidence doesn't match your claim.

How, exactly, does it not?

It quite clearly says that you can acquire source code from cracking. Since copy protection is now an option, then you can pirate program options.

I think this is where it breaks down. If you're doing Options there's two ways to get a Program optimized. First, you can buy the program with the option, which we don't want to do because of cost, or we can install the option later. The problem with using the program option to program is that the program you're designing cannot run on the comm/nexi until the option is installed, which means at some point there will be a program you can't run on the node it was programmed on, which would violate the "potentially" part of programming it. Otherwise, you could program anything because potentially you could always buy the option later, even if you don't have it now. Without the option you have no way to run it and there's no way to get the option onto the program being coded before it is finished, because you have to do it as a mod.

For example, say you had a System 4 Commlink and an Optimization 6 option for the Stealth program. If you coded a R10 Stealth program it could potentially run on the link However, once you finish coding it, it will not be able to run until you install the option, which means you've essentially coded a program that cannot run on the comm/nexi that you coded it on. If there was some way to get the option as part of the code you're creating then it works perfectly. Unfortunately I don't see any way to do that.

I'd actually really like it if this worked but it's a GM call because I don't think the RAW case is strong enough.

All the rules say is that you can start with the source code of a program and add options. You can get the source code of the program by cracking an existing program-with-options. If anything, Copy Protection is destroyed by this, although it hardly matters.

The question of Options degrading is an interesting one, but not one covered in the RAW AFAIK. Right now, I think everyone gets a free pass on their Options when it comes to program degradation; if not, it would only make programming yourself even less feasible for non-munchkins.

You can't crack Options, in the sense that you can then reuse them on anything. I think there's a RAW case that cracking a program-with-options gives source code that retains any options. A consequence of this could be that you have to manually remove the options you don't want (similar to removing bugs? *shrug*).

Again, I'm not arguing that it's good RAW, but there's nothing that supports Options as little standalone quasi-programs to be copied, mixed, and matched.

And then you have the source code, and can patch it onto existing programs.(because you have the source code) Besides, all signs point to options as their own sort of mini-programs - they degrade on their own, for example.

That doesn't make sense. Source code doesn't do that.

Why do you think Options degrade? I must have missed that. :/

Oh, man... I'm totally flashing back to Programming Class now!

CHARLIE IN THE CODE TREES, MAN! CHARLIE IN THE TREES!!! THE LINE PRINTER! TAKE OUT THE LINE PRINTER BEFORE IT GETS US ALL!

When you crack their copy protection, sure.

All the signs to me point to the fact that an option is the equivalent of a rating point. Is there anything I have missed that says this isn't the case?

So by the normal interpretation a program of rating 3 with 2 options would become a program of rating 2 with 2 options after a suitable amount of time. Is this the case?

Options don't have Copy Protection, Saint Sithney. Or was that a joke.

Yes, Seth, AFAIK the program degrades while the options just sit there, part of the program. If they both degraded, that'd be harsh *and* complex.

And people wonder why everyone ignores or misuses the Matrix..

It's not too bad if everyone isn't constantly trying for loopholes and abuses.