Why pick technos over uber hacker? Options

[onlyghostdancesw...]

Ok I've seen this topic bounced around lately but why exactly, given everything a hacker can start with, pirate, build etc play a techno except as a rigger or stealth specialist? I was thinking of making a drone god out of the techno as it seems to be scary good at this as well as a sprite summoner (relying on 6 fault sprites and 6 agents with various nasty programs to take up the enemy response). However it seems that the hackers can do alot (not quite as high DP ofc) that technos can do without getting raped on bp and resources. What am I missing that allows the technos to function as The One in their natural element? What are the situations where a techno really rapes a hacker?

[deek]

One obvious situation is if you take a hackers gear away. Can't really do that to a techno.

[Faraday]

Threading is one. Submersion is the other big one.

Also, TMs can access Resonance Realms. This doesn't usually have a big impact on games, but a GM might do so. Theoretically, you could potentially access any info that ever existed on a device connected to The Net.

[Makki]

I support your point. TMs win at high Stealth, where Hackers are limited to 6, and some fun echoes. But nobody really needs resonance trodes, do you?
you can search the forum for hundreds of TM vs Hacker and Adept vs. Sam diskussions.

[Inncubi]

I will say something obvious:

Flavor.

Enough threads exist to support the viability of maxed out hackers that can kick a technomancer's ass in cybercombat, they have more dice for everything and ca do all of it while chewing gum (at no less than 5 IPs!).

However, given my experience, the flavor you get form one or the other is completely different. Technomancers relate differently to the matrix than hackers, their backgrounds are less /technical/, typically, and in the long run will change more. Like some already said submersion and echoes will mechanically differentiate the character advancement over simply accruing bigger bonuses from better cyberware, bioware, nanites or what-have-you. Now, I am not saying that its better to submerge, but it does make a bigger impact in the RP aspect than simply buying some better 'ware. This, I mean, in most games.

So, if you simply want a mechanical answer, go to the threads, made by people who know the system much better than I do and can put up more optimized characters.

If you want an honest answer: Technomancers can hack, so you will not feel like you are unable to do /anything/ for the team. They can do the job good enough and do it with a particular taste. If you like said taste go for it. Now, out of the box, hackers can probably throw more dice and have more programs at a higher rating, if that's more your game... you know the answer.

[squee_nabob]

TMs have a great deal of absolute effects that only other TMs (and sprites) can deal with. An example of this is that they are unhackable by mundane hackers, or any of the absolute effect sprite powers. The crack sprite is much more effective than a hacker or TM if you don't care about it being caught.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, one game where the team was in a deep jungle area with no Matrix access, the Technomancer was begging to use my Hacker's satellite uplink, even for like five minutes, like an addict begging for a hit from a dealer.

Oh, wait, this is a thread about why you SHOULD play a TM.

Hmm.

Lemme think about that.




-k

[Eratosthenes]

Well, one game where the team was in a deep jungle area with no Matrix access, the Technomancer was begging to use my Hacker's satellite uplink, even for like five minutes, like an addict begging for a hit from a dealer.

Why wouldn't/couldn't the TM have a satellite uplink?

It's mostly flavor, in my opinion, and as others have said. TM's tend to be more specialized towards the Matrix, while Hackers can often diversify more easily into real-space facets. One is a cash sink, the other's a karma sink. One deals in tech, the other deals in art. Left brain, right brain, etc., etc. One is spontaneous (threading, sprites), the other is more logical and planned.

I think TM's have the greater long term potential, over hackers, as technically there's nothing special about a hacker's abilities that would prevent a TM from being able to do them.

[CanRay]

Here's a reason: ROLE PLAYING!

TMs are the new "EVULZ" of the Sixth World, and if not actively hunted, are certainly feared by the general populous.

Oh, right, sorry, "Role Playing" is a four-letter word here, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[GreyBrother]

Just skinlink the damn Satlink and everything is dandy.

[Blade]

But nobody really needs resonance trodes, do you?

Touch someone, take him with you in VR, thread your Black Hammer with a Psychotrope option.
You can do more than with mind manipulation spells and it can last much longer.

[Faraday]

Touch someone, take him with you in VR, thread your Black Hammer with a Psychotrope option.
You can do more than with mind manipulation spells and it can last much longer.

Hell just taking someone under is usually good enough to kill them in combet. (Granted, you'll be out cold to sooo)

[Makki]

Touch someone, take him with you in VR, thread your Black Hammer with a Psychotrope option.
You can do more than with mind manipulation spells and it can last much longer.

sure. but does a matrix focused character NEED this?! As aforementioned, it's a question of flavour

[Faraday]

sure. but does a matrix focused character NEED this?! As aforementioned, it's a question of flavour

It's probably the most effective way to take out a cybered-up Fomorri with astral hazing and mil-spec armor.*

Just sayin.


*Not including things that PCs could theoretically acquire but would end up with the GM laughing in their face.

[KarmaInferno]

Why wouldn't/couldn't the TM have a satellite uplink?

Dunno why he didn't have one. Maybe he was of the "I don't need silly Matrix gear! I R Matrix God!" mentality.

I think the number one advantage of a TM is flexibility. They can spin up matrix tools they need on the fly like nobody else. If a Hacker is caught without a program he needs for a task, he's just mostly screwed.



-k

[sabs]

So you're saying TM's suck.. because TM players are raving idiots?
That's not really a good answer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faraday]

When a cop pops a hacker and says "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The hacker is screwed and is likely AT LEAST out a good 40-50k. Double screwed if he has nasty black programs on there.

When a cop pops a TM and says, "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The TM hands the cop his el-cheapo commlink and is likely not screwed. That link should have nothing interesting on it and be easily thrown away.

[Cheops]

I have to second the Resonance Realms comment. I know a lot of GMs ignore the Astral/Resonance quests but if you have a willing GM both vastly increase the power of their respective class by a thousand-fold.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

yeah i like the whole flavor of being a techno just wanted some hard evidence that i wont get thrashed by a hacker. Another thing, can a techno even be attacked by a hacker since (if you use that optional rule in unwired) the techno cant be hacked or really even detected by another non-resonance being?

pg 137-138 unwired

[sabs]

Your bionode can't be hacked, but you can be attacked when you're in the matrix, hacking something

[onlyghostdancesw...]

ah ok i was wondering about that. What about detection though? Just using that analyze rule how often will a hacker break through that technos crazy stealth?

[Makki]

When a cop pops a hacker and says "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The hacker is screwed and is likely AT LEAST out a good 40-50k. Double screwed if he has nasty black programs on there.

When a cop pops a TM and says, "I'll need to confiscate your commlink for evidence, sir." The TM hands the cop his el-cheapo commlink and is likely not screwed. That link should have nothing interesting on it and be easily thrown away.

show me a hacker, that doesn't hand the officer HIS el-cheapo commlink.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I will say something obvious:

Flavor.

Enough threads exist to support the viability of maxed out hackers that can kick a technomancer's ass in cybercombat, they have more dice for everything and ca do all of it while chewing gum (at no less than 5 IPs!).

However, given my experience, the flavor you get form one or the other is completely different. Technomancers relate differently to the matrix than hackers, their backgrounds are less /technical/, typically, and in the long run will change more. Like some already said submersion and echoes will mechanically differentiate the character advancement over simply accruing bigger bonuses from better cyberware, bioware, nanites or what-have-you. Now, I am not saying that its better to submerge, but it does make a bigger impact in the RP aspect than simply buying some better 'ware. This, I mean, in most games.

So, if you simply want a mechanical answer, go to the threads, made by people who know the system much better than I do and can put up more optimized characters.

If you want an honest answer: Technomancers can hack, so you will not feel like you are unable to do /anything/ for the team. They can do the job good enough and do it with a particular taste. If you like said taste go for it. Now, out of the box, hackers can probably throw more dice and have more programs at a higher rating, if that's more your game... you know the answer.

Quoted for Truth...
Flavor actually menas a lot, at least to me anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ah ok i was wondering about that. What about detection though? Just using that analyze rule how often will a hacker break through that technos crazy stealth?

Well, Analyze vs. Stealth is a contested roll... and I have seen a Technomancer with a Stealth of 13 detected by a Rating 8 system before, so it is not always a sure thing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[sabs]

That depends.

A hacker is going to be running Computer+analyze:
Best Case Scenario:
Computer(6) + Specialty (2) + Analyze(6) + Custom Interface (1) + Optimized (Analyze) (1) + Analytical Mind (2) + Hot Sim (2) = 20

Threading: 12d6=4hits. Roll Willpower+Resonance:12d6=4 hits = 0 damage taken.
vs
Hacking(6) + Stealth(6) + Threading (4) = 16

So in an opposed test, an optimized Hacker has the advantage.
Where the TM has the advantage is firewall+analyze (10) test. 12 Dice, takes 3 rounds to pop, vs a hacker gets caught in 2 max, and CAN be caught in 1 relatively often.