We're saying the same thing. I was just summing up what constitues a vehicle test by RAW. How much more clear than "Pilot + Maneuver is explicitly used for Vehicle tests made by drones" can I get to acknowledging drones making vehicle tests? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'm sorry if I give cause for confusion though, for all my facility with the English language, it's still not Rating N, and I fear at this hour, I'm suffering some wound penalties due to fatigue damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I was just noting that beside Maneuver there are precious few tests that would benefit from the threshold reduction. Actually none, as all others are opposed, and thus don't have thresholds, or or aren't Vehicle tests at all. You shouldn't magically get a threshold reduction Using EW to scan for hidden nodes, or using Perception/Clearsight, just because you happen to be interfacing through a vehicle.

Also sabs, the +2 bonus is for using hotsim. Drones don't do simsense. Since they make Vehicle tests (and since Arsenal says so) they should indeed get the -1 threshold modifier on them that virtual reality control entitles them to.

I'm well aware of that. Confusion was over wether or not Pilots benefit from the virtual reality rules for Vehicle skills. Obvoiusly they make vehicle tests, but even then, they're not technically using VR(which is by definition only experienced through simsense, which requires DNI), so really shouldn't. Arsenal changed that confusion.
They're still not using VR, but benefit from the rule regardless of that. This doesn't enable them to the +2 hotsim bonus, or any other VR related rule though.

Them being vehicles does not make every test they make a vehicle test though, for any purpose.

Except that you DO roll astral perception to "See" things if they are not obvious. Astral Perception does not equal Assensing. Assensing is used to determine what something resonates as once you can actually perceive them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Exactly - the point is, Perception(the skill) has nothing to do with Perception tests.

Perception =/ Perception, except 1/3 of the time.

Matrix Perception is indeed a sort of misnomer, because you don't use Perception for it at all. It *is* stupid and wrong for Perceptive gave a bonus to Matrix Perception.

<Ignore this, I was mistaken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) > Perception *is* used on physical and astral. Assensing does steal some of Perception's role on the physical, but you still use Perception astrally (in those rare cases that something isn't 'obvious'). </end mistakenness> Dunno why I thought you didn't use Assensing for 'spot' tests, sorry. It still *does* make sense for Perceptive to help astral tests, and not matrix ones.

A Perception test is a test involving Perception =which is just used for physical perception of any kind- and any other test which is specifically name a Perception test. Matrix perception might be called a perception test, since SR4a specifically names the Computer + Analyze roll a Matrix Perception test. Does this mean it is a general Perception test? I'l give you the benefit of the doubt, though the consequences of that decision can be odd, depending on how you explain what your character perceives as a result of this test.

Astral Perception, however, is an ability, and a psychic sense. The associated test is called an Assensing test. (the term "Astral Perception test" is never used in either SR4(a) or Street Magic) The components of which do not include Perception. Since it doesn't include the skill, and "Perception" isn't in the name of the test either, it just isn't a Perception test. So actually Tymeaus, you don't. You don't make an Astral Perception test, and you definitely don't roll astral perception. Neither term is ever used. You make an Assensing test.
Why the two of you are saying Perception skill plays any part on the Astral is beyond me:

Indeed, Astral Perception does not equal Assensing, since the first is an ability, power, quality and sense, while the other is a skill and test. A test that is always rolled when dealing with the sense of astral perception.

Perceptive adds to physical, Matrix and Astral perception tests because it specifically says so. It specifically says so because someone saw the need for it. Now one can only guess, but I'm guessing he saw the need for it, because if it hadn't said so specifically, it wouldn't have applied, at least in the case of Astral Perception.

The phrasing of this quality raises an interesting question though. This is the first occurence of the term "Astral ... Perception test" (that I know of, at least, if anyone can dig up an earlier one, I'd be interested) in any of the books. As it stands, on the strictest reading of RAW, it really shouldn't apply to Assensing tests at all, since these are not "Astral Perception tests", for reasons mentioned above.
Obviously, the intent was to make it apply to Assensing tests.
The question is, should this be interpreted as a misneomer, and "Astral ... Perception test" be replaced by "Assensing"? Or should the associated test with using astral perception henceforth also be known as both an Assensing and an Astral Perception test? This would possibly include the test associated with using Astral Perception in the category of "Perception tests".


Yes, I know I'm being massively anal retentive about this, but seriously, naming should be done consistently, so that references to what applies where can be clear.

Perception = Perception, always. Just "Perception" != "Perception test". Also always.