You see, when you write "say that when he casts spells, he's actually calling on the spirits to aid/harm those affected", I presume that you mean actual summoned spirits as a source of spellcasting.
If it's just for flavor, sure, why not.

That is, in fact, exactly what he said.


Reading comprehension FTW.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I'm thinking of just running it by the numbers, he casts spells and just says they are from spirits fluffwise, like has been presented to me. Still, he will have a large pool of options to choose from for using spirit powers in the conventional means (concealment, accident).

All lot of what I was saying in this thread was that I felt I might have stumbled upon a self imposed restriction we put on our selves, maybe as a leftover from previous editions. The only real evidence that I have seen (besides angry torchbearers) is the endowment power. I'm not sure that really rebukes my thoughts, but its all i get apparently (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks!

If you can find a place in the book where it says a spirit can loan you its own powers, short of Endowment or possession, feel free to quote it. Having just read the bit in SR4A about spirit services, I can tell you that it describes spirits using their powers at the behest of their summoners, but says nothing about the summoners themselves using the spirits' powers. What you describe is flat-out not in the book. That's not a "self-imposed restriction," that's RAW.

Heh, I did. Scroll back and look.

To sum it up again, the description says it allows you continual use of a spirits powers. I can find nothing describing additional restrictions.

What I am saying is "RAW" by its very definition, what you are saying is "RAW" is more likely Rules as intended, but not written.

The bit in bold is flagrantly untrue. The passage that you yourself quoted, from the "Spirit Services" section starting on page 186 of SR4A, says:

There is absolutely nothing apart from Endowment which says a magician can gain the use of spirit powers. Even Channeling is ambiguous, referring to "tap[ping] the ... spirit's powers."

From my point of view you are just posting the same things I posted, and pasting your opinion after it and calling me wrong.

Those snippets, are what I am talking about. If you haven't grasped the point of this discussion by this point, it is pretty pointless.

It says a spirit can use its powers on an individual or group depending on the power. Concealment has disclaimers that say it can be used on multiple people, most others do not. So, unless you use endowment you cant use many of the other traditional powers on multiple people.

But, my whole point is, it says powers. So, like I have been trying to say from the beginning here, there is no restriction anywhere I can find that keeps a spirit from using materialization, or engulf or any power really, besides limitations that we have put on ourselves. Thats my point.

Except that's not actually what you've been saying. I'm prepared to entertain the possibility that you've merely been expressing yourself poorly, saying one thing when you mean something quite different, but what you have actually been saying is that you want your Shinto magician character to use spirit powers as if they were his own. This, according to RAW, is not possible without the use of the Endowment power. It is absolutely true that there is nothing preventing a spirit from using Materialization, Engulf, or any other power that it possesses. It is also absolutely true that it is the spirit which uses those powers, not the magician who summoned the spirit. That is what the book says. You want a page number? It's 186, the same page you've been looking at the whole time.

Squinky, I agree with Tanegar in that I think you have not been expressing your argument very well, but I think I understand what it is you are saying. It seems to me that you are mixing up the difference between using a power and granting a power.

This is what I think you are saying: that a spirit can use a power on its summoner, and that summoner can then utilize the effects of the power, no matter what the power does. For example, let's take the spirit power Engulf. You're saying that a spirit's use of Engulf on its summoner is mechanically identical to a magician's casting of e.g. Mind Probe on his/her teammate - the magician touches the teammate and casts the spell, and the teammate is now able to mindrape any person he can see; the spirit uses Engulf on the summoner, and now the summoner can turn around and encase someone in <insert element here> just by slapping them.

Disregarding the fact that spells and critter powers are not at all the same thing, I believe why your interpretation is incorrect according to us ultimately boils down to the fact that the way the specific power descriptions are written is not compatible with your interpretation. Throughout the entire critter power section, it repeatedly states that this power allows the being or critter to do X, and that the use of this power causes X to happen to the target/victim, and so on. Unlike in the spells section, absolutely nowhere in the critter power rules does it say anything about the subject/target being able to do X. If the critter uses a power like Elemental Attack on a target, the only way therefore for the power to work is the way it is written as a critter power: to damage the target, or what have you. Because Elemental Attack doesn't say anything about the subject being able to do it, only the critter which has the power.

Because of this, the use of a power by the target requires that the power be granted to him through Endowment. Using a power and granting a power are not the same thing. Does that make sense?

There actually is something keeping a spirit from using Materialisation. It' a physical power, which can't by RAW be used on the astral.
Or did SR4a correct that? Can't seem to remember.

Everybody ignores that silly error.

Alright, you guys win (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still am intrigued by my pondering, but I have been proven wrong by a jury of my peers.