So, I've been reading up on spirits lately. I've never really gave them much thought.

I've got a "Conjurer" concept in mind, except I don't want to use spirits in combat much. I'm afraid of messing with game balance truthfully. A decent force spirit seems a bit too much. I've decided to role play that he won't use them materialized in combat out of respect.

So my concept is a Shinto guy that summons and binds spirits, but simply uses their powers. An example is instead of an invisibility spell, use a service and have a spirit conceal me instead. Nothing too different there, but reading up has got me wondering.

What about other powers? Like immunity to normal weapons, or natural weapon? Can I burn up services and have the spirit allow me use of this power like it would with others?

I can't find anything specific on this, it's not character breaking if I can't.

Thanks for any advice.

It doesn't quite work that way. Concealment is a power that the spirit is using on you; you are not actually receiving the power itself from the spirit.

You can have a spirit actually loan you use of one of its powers, through a power called Endowment. However, this requires 1) that your tradition can summon guidance spirits, and 2) that you are an initiate who knows the Invoking metamagic. This would require karmagen to do straight out of character generation.

It's actually Guardian and Task spirits that have the Great Form power Endowment. (SM p. 57)

Another way to do so would be to use possession spirits instead, which for all the heat they tend to get, really aren't that game breaking to my experience. The same goes for regular spirits, by the way.
Yes, F8 spirits don't only seem strong, they are. But really, I'd love to see you get more than two on a run and survive, without having pumped 100 karma into Magic and initiation. And even if you have, you stand a good risk of being out cold anyway. And then you probably have one services from them, two if you get a decent Conjuring Focus. Binding one is even more precarious, not to mention expensive.
While F6 spirits tend to offer less in combat than your run of the mil sammie, not to mention an overcast stunbolt. It's the powers that make them useful for the most part.

Thanks for the replies guys.

My reading of endowment gives me the impression that it is used to give the power for a lengthy period, and one more than one user.

I'm looking more for a reason that I can't have my character ask to use elemental aura on himself as a service, for a limited time. It's a bit different, just a bit.


Continuous use of a specific power counts as only one service.
A spirit can use its powers on an individual target or a group, depending
on the power.


I guess I still don't see why I cant do as I suggesting RAW wise. I'm not wanting the power to be given to me, just to be used for me, just as if the spirit was materialized, but perhaps less economically service wise.

The crux of the argument is the difference between 'use' and 'grant'. A spirit can use its elemental aura power on you, but that means you burn/freeze/abrade/etc. Same for ItNW. Using it means the spirit is hardened. Concealment is defined as being able to be used on others. Any power that is so defined can help the conjurer directly.

it's pretty easy. look at the Range of the power, which works like range of powers. if it says Self, then the spirit can only use it at himself, how more obvious can it be?

Heh, I just came to that conclusion myself. So ranged self powers are off the the table it seems.

I guess I am just wondering where it specifically says what abilities (that aren't self range) can't be used in the manner I suggest. I don't see it, so I wonder the typical idea of power usage came from?

To me, its a difference between having a materialized spirit use the power continually in combat (which I think will upset my GM's game world balance) or having that elemental blast originate from my character, as far as non magic folk see. It fits Shinto pretty well to do it this way. It's easy to fiddle this out in game by just describing my magic use as different, but I was wondering if there was a definitive answer.

Any power that has range Self may only be used by the spirit, on the spirit. Any power that has range LoS may be used by the spirit, on whomever it is ordered to do so, or whomever it deigns fit to use the power on in the execution of its orders.
Having a spirit use Elemental Attack on you results in it rolling Agility + Exotic Ranged Weapon vs your Reaction, and you resting F + net hits worth of damage.
Also, powers that have a duration of Instant aren't ever used continuously, only powers with a duration of Sustained are, which count towards the spirit's sustained powers limit. Instant powers may however be used several times in the execution of a service, if the spirit deihns fit to do so, or the service demands it.

The only way you could use spirit powers yourself is the spirit using Endowment on you, which is a Great Form power, and is hence not possessed by normal summoned spirits. If you are possessed by a spirit, it may use its powers still, but they're technically still being used by the spirit, even while coming from your body. This would come closest to what you seem to be aiming for, but is still a far cry from it.

You can fluff those mechanics all the ways you'd want, but those truths don't change according to RAW.

Heh, these things you are saying aren't new to me. And they aren't really answering anything.

I know what you say is the conventional way it is played universally, but I am saying, where did we come up with this way? I have found nothing to show that it has to be played this way, and have yet to be shown anything either.

You use RAW as a leverage point in your debate, and thats what I am looking for. But I have yet to see anything Rules As Written that supports your views, please, cite some page numbers. Opinions are nice, but I am looking for RAW.

What exactly do you want to see in the RAW?
The fact that a spirit can not endow his powers upon you without Endowment? See the Power's description to draw that rather obvious conclusion.
The fact that spirits use their powers normally at their summoner's request, and don't get a sudden ability to change the way they work by the book? Well, point out where it says they do.
Otherwise, the way spirit's services are used is rather wholesomely described in SR4AE Core page 186.

Up to now i thought my english is pretty good, but i overflew the topic and i really lost the point you discuss here. I only want to add one information: with endowment, the spirit may be able to transfer one of his powers to you (i don´t have the book at hand) but ITNW is definitely not one of them. Spirits don´t have this power, it is something that comes along with the Materialization power that (if your GM has some common sense) should not be able to be transferred to you.

Materialisation could be endowed to you, it just wouldn't do you any good.

Look, a spirit can use powers.
Valid targets for uses of the powers are described in the power description under the Range category.
Effects of usage of the powers is mentioned in the rest of the text.

What part of RAW gives you any indication this would be otherwise? Since saying it's not specifically mentioned otherwise is like saying a troll should be able to fly, because the line "trolls can't fly" does not appear in any edition of SR's RAW.

Could somebody please quote the endowment-power-entry?

Any power the spirit has, can be endowed on up to 2M subjects.

This is the only way by RAW that anyone other than the spirit can use the spirit's powers.
It's a Great Form power, specific to Guardian and Task spirits.
Great Form powers can only be used by Great Form spirits, which can only be created by initiates with Invoking metamagic.

Edit:
ItnW could be argued to be endowable through this, since "physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons" (SR4a pg 186) The spirit would have to materialise first though, and also "materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons." (SR4a pg 296) It being worded differently twice gives reason for different interpretations.
Also, Materialisation itself could be endowed, which would in fact allow an astrally projecting mage to use it, and thus gain ItnW as well. Brining non-magical gear along with this would be questionable.

Hey, thanks. So this is the solution for the initiative posters problems, but materialization still doesn´t make sense.

Specifically about ItNW, it is a power the spirit has, as long as it is materialized. A spirit in astral form does not have ItNW, and cannot Endow it. Once it Materializes, it has the power, and can Endow it. See SR4A, p. 295, and especially 296 for the separation of the two powers.

How does it not make sense?

Also, for your convenience, power range and duration is explained in the beginning of the Powers subchapter, pg 293 of SR4a.

It doesn´t make sense because he gets this power (ITNW) as a result of his power materialization. If his Materialization power, endowed to you, doens´t make you a being able to transfer his body mass into an astral body (which i don´t think), it also cannot harden your natural body. I thought that it was a end result of the materialization, not the power ITNW itself. But i cannot verify, because if don´t have the books at hand.

If you have the Materialisation power, while being an astral form (so either by being a (free) spirit, or astrally projecting, or having benefitted from the Astral Gateway power, or anything else that is or gives you an astral form), you can materialise, interact with physical objects and gain ItNW.

Why not just give the character the Sorcery skill, and some spells, and say that when he casts spells, he's actually calling on the spirits to aid/harm those affected?

You got your fluff, you got your mechanics. Done.

Because of the Drain mechanic?

Conjuring spirits has drain, too. /shrug.

Yes, but it has different Drain values applied at the different times.

And what the original poster wants is not how spirits work. I'm not sure what you're getting at?

He wants a mage who's power comes from calling on spirits to aid his comrades, and provide boons, but without the spirits, apparently (he just wants their powers). That doesn't exist RAW.

So saying "the drain would be different than from summoning spirits" is neither here nor there.

His tradition says his powers (i.e. spells) come from various spirits and sprites. I see no reason for that not to be a tradition, in and of itself. Spells aren't done by invoking specific formula and pseudo-scientific algorithms (hermetic), or by singing the song of Coyote (shamanistic), but by asking the spirits to grant a boon or favor.

And you'd handle it just like spellcasting. Done.

If, instead, the point is for the character to simply have spirit powers, well, your options are Endowment from invoked spirits, or possession spirits.

You see, when you write "say that when he casts spells, he's actually calling on the spirits to aid/harm those affected", I presume that you mean actual summoned spirits as a source of spellcasting.
If it's just for flavor, sure, why not.

That is, in fact, exactly what he said.


Reading comprehension FTW.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I'm thinking of just running it by the numbers, he casts spells and just says they are from spirits fluffwise, like has been presented to me. Still, he will have a large pool of options to choose from for using spirit powers in the conventional means (concealment, accident).

All lot of what I was saying in this thread was that I felt I might have stumbled upon a self imposed restriction we put on our selves, maybe as a leftover from previous editions. The only real evidence that I have seen (besides angry torchbearers) is the endowment power. I'm not sure that really rebukes my thoughts, but its all i get apparently

Thanks!

If you can find a place in the book where it says a spirit can loan you its own powers, short of Endowment or possession, feel free to quote it. Having just read the bit in SR4A about spirit services, I can tell you that it describes spirits using their powers at the behest of their summoners, but says nothing about the summoners themselves using the spirits' powers. What you describe is flat-out not in the book. That's not a "self-imposed restriction," that's RAW.

Heh, I did. Scroll back and look.

To sum it up again, the description says it allows you continual use of a spirits powers. I can find nothing describing additional restrictions.

What I am saying is "RAW" by its very definition, what you are saying is "RAW" is more likely Rules as intended, but not written.

The bit in bold is flagrantly untrue. The passage that you yourself quoted, from the "Spirit Services" section starting on page 186 of SR4A, says:

There is absolutely nothing apart from Endowment which says a magician can gain the use of spirit powers. Even Channeling is ambiguous, referring to "tap[ping] the ... spirit's powers."

From my point of view you are just posting the same things I posted, and pasting your opinion after it and calling me wrong.

Those snippets, are what I am talking about. If you haven't grasped the point of this discussion by this point, it is pretty pointless.

It says a spirit can use its powers on an individual or group depending on the power. Concealment has disclaimers that say it can be used on multiple people, most others do not. So, unless you use endowment you cant use many of the other traditional powers on multiple people.

But, my whole point is, it says powers. So, like I have been trying to say from the beginning here, there is no restriction anywhere I can find that keeps a spirit from using materialization, or engulf or any power really, besides limitations that we have put on ourselves. Thats my point.

Except that's not actually what you've been saying. I'm prepared to entertain the possibility that you've merely been expressing yourself poorly, saying one thing when you mean something quite different, but what you have actually been saying is that you want your Shinto magician character to use spirit powers as if they were his own. This, according to RAW, is not possible without the use of the Endowment power. It is absolutely true that there is nothing preventing a spirit from using Materialization, Engulf, or any other power that it possesses. It is also absolutely true that it is the spirit which uses those powers, not the magician who summoned the spirit. That is what the book says. You want a page number? It's 186, the same page you've been looking at the whole time.

Squinky, I agree with Tanegar in that I think you have not been expressing your argument very well, but I think I understand what it is you are saying. It seems to me that you are mixing up the difference between using a power and granting a power.

This is what I think you are saying: that a spirit can use a power on its summoner, and that summoner can then utilize the effects of the power, no matter what the power does. For example, let's take the spirit power Engulf. You're saying that a spirit's use of Engulf on its summoner is mechanically identical to a magician's casting of e.g. Mind Probe on his/her teammate - the magician touches the teammate and casts the spell, and the teammate is now able to mindrape any person he can see; the spirit uses Engulf on the summoner, and now the summoner can turn around and encase someone in <insert element here> just by slapping them.

Disregarding the fact that spells and critter powers are not at all the same thing, I believe why your interpretation is incorrect according to us ultimately boils down to the fact that the way the specific power descriptions are written is not compatible with your interpretation. Throughout the entire critter power section, it repeatedly states that this power allows the being or critter to do X, and that the use of this power causes X to happen to the target/victim, and so on. Unlike in the spells section, absolutely nowhere in the critter power rules does it say anything about the subject/target being able to do X. If the critter uses a power like Elemental Attack on a target, the only way therefore for the power to work is the way it is written as a critter power: to damage the target, or what have you. Because Elemental Attack doesn't say anything about the subject being able to do it, only the critter which has the power.

Because of this, the use of a power by the target requires that the power be granted to him through Endowment. Using a power and granting a power are not the same thing. Does that make sense?

There actually is something keeping a spirit from using Materialisation. It' a physical power, which can't by RAW be used on the astral.
Or did SR4a correct that? Can't seem to remember.

Everybody ignores that silly error.

Alright, you guys win

I still am intrigued by my pondering, but I have been proven wrong by a jury of my peers.