*shrug* that properly configured conjurer should be less than one in a million.
People with 6+ Magic should be rare indeed. People with two 5s in their drain attributes to boot exceedingly so.

That every runner who wants to play a conjurer end up like this after 4 sessions is a flaw of the players, not of RAW. And do keep in mind they're making a hefty investment to do so.
Even then, it hard to twink. A character to the point where they'll actually be able to summon F8s without a chance they won't survive. As has been said before, 5.2 drain on average from an F8 isn't that bad. The chance for 16 is fairly slim, but 10 isn't that far out.

I would venture that, among the population of awakened metahumans with 6+ Magic, there is a higher proportion of individuals with high drain attributes than amongst the general population; probably for the same reasons that few people with Pistols 6 also have Agility 3, or that you rarely see doctors with Medicine 6/Logic 1.

You realize summoning a force 10 spirit produces 6.66 physical drain on average, and getting 10+ is not unusual, and lethal results are very possible. How many NPC's are going to do something that dangerous....and that incredibly painful, for anything other than an emergency. Read in SR fiction some of the descriptions of overcasting, it's not pleasant, even if they resist the drain, magicians are trained to avoid it.

I totally agree here. It's really a player fail if they have their characters casually summoning something that can very easily kill them, or at least cause them as much damage as getting shot with a large-caliber weapon.

And a "properly configured" anything in SR is going to be a twink-fest and not really worth talking about in this context. A pornomancer is properly configured...the .01 essence, 50 armor-troll is properly configured.

Edge-cases.

Well, you would need a lot of "proper configuration". I would guess surge and Bio to start with or 4-5 initiations.

@phlapjack77
Well, but it is not the point, that you could get a force 10 spirit. The point is, that you can get a force 7 spirit easy enough. Yes, it is hard to get force 10 out of Chargen, but the armor 50 Troll is also not easy to get at this point.

Well, but I guess even if you look at the two extrem characters, the Force 10 spirit would still kick the troll.
As a matter of fact it is not that hard to pirce 50 points of armor (well, you would just do stun, but the hell). 20 Points of ITNW with reaction 10+ on the other hand....

My point is, this is an argument saying "My edge-case can beat up your edge-case". No one is casually summoning a F10 spirit, unless it's a really really powerful char / NPC, or a twink. F7 spirit is powerful, maybe more common, but hardly game-breaking. And this exists exactly as much as your GM wants it to. Just like everything else in the game.

So just because an aspect of the game can be abused (and pretty much all of it can), doesn't mean it's overpowered.

*edit* And just to be clear, I agree there might be areas of the game that ARE overpowered. I don't see this as one of them.

Indeed, I do realize that... but it is survivable, with just a little effort, assuming you have taken the proper precautions, which is why I think that there should be controls in place for preventing such occurrences. The expenditure of Edge does this nicely, in my opinion. Now, that Force 10 Spirit is rolling 20 Dice, and is rerolling 6's. See how many Magicians are willing to Summon it now.

I have routinely mentioned that Fluff is directly oppopsed to the Mechanics in this regard. MOst player characters, given the opportunity (or the perceived need) to summon such a beast of a Spirit do so without the slightest thought, because they have optimized their character to do so. Arguments that the Damage is Physical notwithstanding. Magicians in Canon are trained to avoid it (by the Fluff), PC Magicians thrive on it (by the Mechanics). Just look at all the topics here on Dumpshock that espouse that very ideal.

@Phlapjack77 - It is not an Edge Case - As I said, all you have to do is look at any Topic about conjuring here on Dumpshock and you will see that it is the commonly accepted level of Spirit Summoning for a Character. One, even, that has little experience. Drain Stats are easily raised to the Maximum Augmented Levels (Soft Max of 5's 2 Spells at Foprce 3 and 2 Sustaining Foci net you a base of 16 Dice for Drain), or at least very close to it. The Loss of a Single point of Essence will net you a reduction of 2 points of Drain reliably, and the presence of a Competent Medic to repair any damage sufferred in the summoning all leads to starting level characters who can routinely pull this off and suffer little to no real damage. The Edge case is where the Summoning actually kills the character, and is often so remote as to be realistically non-existant... Even with 5 Successes (10 Damage), a Starting character survives that with no Drain roll necessary (Which I have issues with, as you are effectively putting a .50 Caliber bullet through your brain pan and then wincing and asking for a medic... dumb, and dumber)). With 7 Successes you are sustaining 14 points of lethal drain, and with the above combination, that becomes 1 Stun and 12 Physical Drain, and an average of 5 soaked from the Drain stat of 16 Dice, so you are STILL alive for the medic to help you... Even with all 10 dice coming up successes, and average Body of 3 (10 Boxes of Damage), you will still likely survive with your removal/shifting of 2 points of Damage initially, and then your 5 points of Average Soak, resulting in 11 Dice available to reroll for the average 3 points of additional Soak you will get with an Edge Spend. So you take 10 points of Physical Damage (No Overflow though), the Healer Heals you and you get up with a slight headache after the fact, but you will have summoned a Force 10 Spirit who can be completely uber for a period of 12 hours, and you did not really have many issues with the Drain, because you are up and at 'em in a day. Really? And that is a Starting Character.

Yes, they pay for that ability, but on average, they will take no damage at all from that Force 10 Spirit... That is what I have a problem with, because it is way to easy to do... Given a little expereince, and an initiation or two, and the problems just get worse...

Sorry for the Rant... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No problems! I tend to rant too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I disagree completely with your assessment, though (warning, rant ahead) :
1) I don't see any forums saying any such thing. I see many people who seem to think summoning is overpowered, making the same assumptions as here. I see many of the actual creators of the rules and acknowledged "experts" arguing that summoning high-power spirits is actually really difficult. Don't make me invoke Trollman...
2) Mages "pay" for the ability, you yourself said this - so it's not "so easy to do". It takes a ton of min-maxing a character. 16 drain dice? 2 sustaining foci? 2 sustained F3 spells? This is "easy"? Sounds like the character / player has put an awful lot of resources into summoning, here. Might as well say it's easy for a pornomancer to get 50+ dice.
4) This "easy" summoning is only possible with the availability of a bad-ass medic with a bad-ass medkit around. Easy?
5) As I've said before, sounds like the rules for medkits and first-aid are broken, not magic.
6) You're having to spend Edge on the damage soak tests a large part of the time. Easy?

Look, I get that summoning a F10 spirit is really powerful. I just don't think it's as easy or possible as you make it out to be. Nobody would casually shoot themselves in the chest every day. If a player is routinely doing this, they are pretty much failing at RP'ing their character, and they are REALLY flirting with disaster.

Same argument as people who thread thread thread their complex forms. Abuse of the rules is possible in any area of the game.

Well, actuall it hast to be Force 5 of force 8 or 9. Depends on how you are reading the rules.

So I guess your summoner is out.

You are right, Should have been Force 5 Spells/Foci... What I get for ranting and not proofreading afterwards... My apologies...

@Phlapjack77...
1. Not sure where they are, But I have both read them and participated in them... Talk to Neraph, he can probably find them where I could not. he is much better at that Search Fu than I...
2. Mages do indeed pay for the ability, but I would say that it is not that highly specialized a build, since it is a build that most mages follow, at least here on the forums anyways.
3. Not sure where this one disappeared to... Oh Well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
4/5. Bad Ass Medic? 14 Dice is Bad Ass? 3 Stat, 3 Skill, Specialization, and Rating 6 Medkit (which is portable, and available at chargen)... Okay (Seen Character Builds in the 30's for First Aid, but Okay)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) I do agree that First Aid is indeed broken, though, so for what that is worth, heheheh...
6. Only need to use Edge whern the Spirit gets 8+ Successes, which is mostly never statistically... so not all the time, nor most of the time... 7 or less hits on the resistance test means you only need 3 hits on 12-16 Dice to not stroke out and go unconscious from lethal drain (and only 2 Hits to go unconscious, and the medic needs only a few hits to stabilize you and bring you out of it)...

...

I never said that the Force 10 was not powerful, nor that RP wise, it should be a non-occurrence. But Mechanically, it is not an Edge Case for this to happen for Player Character Conjurers. From the comments here on Dumpshock, the average Force for a Conjurer seems to be around the Force 8-9 Mark consistently.

No worries though, we both agree that it should be a non-issue if role-played as it should be. I just like to enforce it with the spirit spending edge to Resist that summoning or Binding... That forces the issue immediately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Why god why would you lack that? Did you not hear that the game is called SHADOW RUN. Anyway, even with a character incompetent at stealth with a Force 5 Concealment effect, your enemies need 6+ Intuition + Perception dice pool to perceive you.

Seems that we'll agree to disagree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Just imagine some devastatingly insightful argument that convinces everyone in a 50' radius (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


I would agree that oversummoning (and overcasting) could use some more limiters. Your idea of spending Edge to resist the summoning or binding seems good, partly because it's also "flavorful". Maybe a better ruling would be to say the spirit resists with Edge when oversummoned, instead of 4+. Spirit doesn't like being summoned by an "inferior" specimen etc...

Agreed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)




Yep, what I was thinking too...



We finally settled on 4+, because it kept the upper end (4-6) still "somewhat" common, if a little risky, and the Upper Levels (7+) way out of the reach of typical situations... Besides, MetaHumanity, as a whole, is Inferior to any spirit of 4+ (and even Spirits of Force 3 are superior to the vast majority of MetaHumanity)... Those characters who want, have an in game avenue that they can pursue to mitigate the issues, but it costs them to do so, and it provides a bit of uncertainty to teh situation... Seems fair to me...

Doesn't that just mean you're forcing your magician players to spend Edge at an accelerated rate? Essentially draining them of valuable resources faster than a mundane character? Don't you already have house rules that punish magicians?

The best way (in my opinion) would be to let the spirit use always edge.
On the other hand a spirits edge should be set to force/2.
This way spirits would be able to spend edge more often without getting to extrem results.

@Cain
No, it would stop extrem spirits from apearing in game. I do agree that with edge=force it would be a bit to much.
But a force 6 spirit rolling 9 dices and rerolling all the 6s is not that bad.

You can never have too many house rules that 'punish' magicians.

Geas: BDSM?

So what benefit is there to being good to your spirits instead of abusing them. Sure I'd agree high force spirits are more likely to spend edge to resist summoning, but only if they have reason not to like the magician.

Not disagreeing with you, but I think there are other benefits to being good to your spirits. If you get knocked out, they more likely won't be vindictive. If you give a somewhat vague command, they won't intentionally misinterpret it. And then there's the fluf...wait, I've said too much...

Exactly! If you've been good to your spirits, roleplayed with them well, there's no reason for the spirit to spend Edge fighting you. OTOH, if you have Spirit Bane, or have been mistreating spirits in game, they should spend Edge freely (and in extreme cases, consider burning it). It should be a player-driven interaction.

You definitely have different summoning rules than we have in our book. Even if you focus completely on summoning, you cannot have a starting character capable of summoning spirits force 7 to 10 with surviving. You may be able to summon one, but not with very much net hits and definitely not without massive drain, most of the time physical damage. This is not "summons force 7-10 with ease", this is "summons sometimes force 7 to 10 and survives".

Not sure what you are referring to there, Cain, but we never force a character to spend Edge. The application of Edge is for the Spirit, not the Character. And no, we do not have houserules for magicians, other than a few of the optional rules in the book, which are not houserules...

Sure you can... Every single Conjurer posted on these boards that I have seen can do so with ease (After all, If you are not optimizing, you are artificially "gimping" your character). Just ask Cain, or Nerraph, or any number of others, for examples of the conjurers that they have designed with a base of 400 bp. Almost all of them can go to Force 8-9 with little issue, unless the Spirit resists with maximum hits (which is statistically unlikely). At 1/2 hits or less (1/2 still low on the probability scale), it is indeed "Easy" to survive it, often with little to no actual drain incurred.

Yes, you may only have a single service or two gained from such a summoning, but you still have a Force (Uber-Whatever) at your beck and call. However, There SHOULD be consequences to summoning a spirit that is of that power level, and there are none enforced in game, apparently, for many here on Dumpshock (the sheer outcry of "dickery" that is heard when it is even suggested is often very entertaining). MAges have the potential to cause major issues with the game, and yes, they do pay for it in opportunity costs more often than not. But there should STILL be things in place to reinforce the Fluff that has been presented over the last 20 years, and that is so often ignored within the mechanics.

Now, for a comparison... At the table I play at, besides the obvious obstacles for summoning any spirit of Force 4+, there is the character perception that doing so casually is like playing Russian Roulette. Eventually, you are going to draw the loaded chamber and you will suffer catastrophic drain. So why tempt fate. By the same token, it is RARE that any of the Magically awakened characters that I play will summon any Spirit above their Magic Rating (or even cast spells above their Magic Rating). Why? Because that is even MORE like playing Russian Roulette... It is an option that is only used when there is absolutely no choice in the matter. That is an apprantly uncommon perspective, though, especially here on Dumpshock.

The only way to safely counter a spirits use of Edge is to spend Edge yourself. So, you're essentially forcing magician players to sacrifice their characters or artificially spend Edge.

It sounds like your problem is that you don't know how to use the rules to limit spirits, and have resorted to house rules and gimps to nerf spirits. Those aren't necessary. Rather than resorting to your house rule, you should stick within the existing ones, and save the house rules for actual problem areas.

You cannot safetly counter a Spirits use of Edge... you will still suffer the results of such an expenditure...

I have never spent Edge to "Counter" a spirit's use of Edge in the entire time I have been playing Shadowrun 4th... Not once. So I would say that that nullifies your assumptions of what an Edge expenditure actually forces a mage to do.

The only thing the RULE (it is in the book, you know) for spending Edge does is to limit the amount of Crazy levels of Spirit Summoning that could exist. I do not believe that the intent of the summoning Rules, nor the Fluff, is to allow PC's to summon Force 9+ Spirits out of Chargen. The use of Edge completely prevents that... And I do not use House Rules to control Magic, just optional rules in the books, or applications of the rules in the books.

But we (you and I) have had this argument before, and it generally leads no where, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)