Um, the slightest twitch will throw off your entire shot. Agility is perfect for that.

You need a surgeon's hand when you're trying to hit a target 1.4 klicks away, along with all the other issues that go along with it.

so really the problem is that Agility is just too good a stat. I can respect that.

Depends on the sniping position and situation.

I'd require willpower rolls for to keep attention for long-term observation of a situation, body to keep from moving around in a nervous manner, and a few other odds and ends as they deem themselves appropriate to me.

Possibly a moral check when you realize that you forgot to wear your diaper and really need to go, and can't even move to use a jar or else give away your position.

Well, Agility is dexterity type of attribute - it covers being able to move something very slightly and very accurately in order to put the sights just where you want them. Think of assembling some electronics thing with really small screws - if your fingers are very agile, it's easy, if you're clumsy, you'll spend plenty of time digging through your carpet for the screws you dropped.

Your point is well-taken, one of the problems with shooting on a bench-rest, bipod, or other stand, is that you essentially take the shooter out of the equation. You're not really holding the weapon, you're just making slight adjustments to the aim. That's why the OP was indicating that LOGIC should factor more into the sniping equation.

Frankly, given how high-tech the SR world is, I'm sorta surprised they haven't published rules for robotic sniping gear. E.g. a motorized stand that either has a rifle built-in, or one you could clamp a rifle into. The sniper would still need to find the target, set-up the robosniper, and compensate for windage, distance, etc. Once things are set-up, the sniper could hunker-down behind cover and link-up with the gun's smartgun/trideo/etc link to observe the targets and make the shots.

They have. They are called, weapon platforms. Essentially static drones. Also, drones set up with autosofts appropriate for that work really nice.
When I make rigger PC's I take one or two rotodrones and give them sporting rifles and nice autsofts. They make amazingly useful snipers and aerial overwatch.

Wouldn't that make mages and hackers better snipers than any sammy or adept?

Alright, it sounds like you may not be addressing the underlying problem here.

Sniping in Shadowrun is anything but underpowered. I think your issue with it is that making a calm long distance shot seems a lot different than popping off shots while sprinting down a hallways.

I think that's what they were trying to get at by breaking out automatics and longarms, but I think swapping skills and specializations along the lines of what Makki suggested would be a better idea for doing that. You could probably add that into a game reasonably well, just let palyers redistribute existing firearm skill BP/Karma into the new catagories.

As for the skill I dislike reducing tactics in the game, and throwing in an "ignore targets planning" skill is a good way to make cover and the like closer to meaningless.

I think your real issue though may be the progression issue between awakened and non awakened.

Personally I'm starting to like the idea of an "attunement" skill for non awakened characters. It represents your spirit (aka true pattern) fully incorporating pieces of cyberware and bioware. This should be visible to astral sight and once attuned you don't get a "hole" for removing that piece of equipment if you wanted to put something in.

Each level of attunement reduces the essence cost of a specific piece or pieces of ware by one, it cannot be taken during initial character generation, and has costs the same as initiation.

This means that sammies can look forward to new toys, instead of having all they're ever going to get in that dartment before the first game session even starts.

Mages are the ultimate snipers. LOS direct target magic with traditional optics can get quite sick when you consider the strength of some Navy Binoculars or a fraggin' TELESCOPE.

We're talking curvature of the Earth at that point!

I actually had an idea of a Shaman that had Photography as a hobby, and used a traditional SLR Camera (Film, Mirrors and Lenses, no digital stuff), and could use a Telephoto Lense for long-range magic. A Fake SIN with a Photographer's License, maybe "Freelance Photographer" as a Day Job for a cover, with a history of taking shots of city scenes from rooftops.

Completely invisible, and able to pick people off at quite some distance.

Can't use optics that don't take up Essence for LOS.

Yes you can, as long as they are not electronic... Binoculars, Telescopes, Mage Sight Goggles, Rifle Optics; these are all viable options.

Mirrors and stuff, yeah, but anything else technological, no. Specifically not cameras.

Cameras (Specifically SLR's) are not electronic in any way, shape, or form. They are using MIRRORS to bounce the image, which is just fine. Now, Most cameras in Shadowrun are Digital, but there is an entry in Arsenal for Old-Style SLR Cameras. These are perfectly fine.

Pure optics work. Just ground glass and such. Check out the description of the Mage Sight Goggles and the Mage Sight System for security in buildings. That's Fiber Optic Cable.

As long as the light that hits the person is the light the magician sees without any interruption that is unnatural (Mirrors are natural), it's Line of Sight.

So, for my Photographer Shaman example, a SLR camera (Again, mirrors and ground glass lenses) would work, but a digital camera (Display screen, even if the lenses are ground glass) would not.

The hard part would be explaining to security why I'm using such "ancient" equipment for my job. But that's what Charisma Skills are for. And, well, play off on the fact that artists are a peculiar bunch. Also, I think there's some kind of spirit photography film that can be used that would make for some interesting cityscape photos. I'm too tired right now to look it up, however. But that would be a reasonable explanation that wouldn't even be a Con.

Sure, you're up there for MORE than just taking pictures, but it's not like you're lying either.

Every Photographer knows that you get much better resolution for Large images by using that "Old Tech" stuff with 25 Speed Film... Besides, this new fangled digital crap is just a fad...

Nikon Non-Digital for the win... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And the Spirit Film is for a Quicksilver Camera. Comes on Glass Plates... Nice stuff...

That's a little vague, because then you have to have a defined range limit on non-electronic imagining tech and give it stats and all that.
Considering that the rule was established to prevent mages from being able to use imaging scopes and what not to cast spells from miles away without giving up Essence, it's a little cheap to turn around and say that's you'll use non-technological telescopes to do the same thing.
Then there is an argument as to the "technological" nature of refracting lenses or what would be the advantage of an imaging scope v. a telescopic lens.
If you were meant to be casting fireballs off a building, there would be mage casting binoculars somewhere.

There are, they are called.... Wait for it... Binoculars... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And why would you need range limits on this technology?

Imaging equipment is not good for mages, because it is generally electronic... Anything that is not electronic, that you can use to gain a better picture of things far away, is okay for Mages to cast through... Even the Fiber-Optic Systems of Mage Sight Goggles and Fiber Optic Mage Sight Security Systems...

I just have my High School photography class to go off of, and I barely passed that. Me and chemicals don't mix... Along with electricity, fire, and a few other things.

As for imaging scopes, I see the standard ones used on rifles and such as being digital in nature, with rangefinders and all other sorts of bells and whistles waiting to be installed. Finding an old fashioned telescopic sight would be hard, and a custom order. Same with binoculars and the like. If you can find some old Navy Surplus Binocs, however... Golden.

Telescopes would be easier, as they're designed for stargazing and the like, but harder to explain why you're carrying one to a roof.

Traditional photography has been mentioned and given stats for in-game, although that's due to the nature of digital formats being easy to fake/doctor (Edit 6 is cheap and legal and gives lawyers the ability to say "Reasonable Doubt" about digital photos/video.). I just took what was already given for ideas (Mage Sight Goggles), and extended it to my personal knowledge of traditional film cameras (Chemicals and me didn't mix, but I studied the hell out of the camera's design and how it functioned.), and bang, done.

The way around the "Mage Sniper" issue is Watcher Spirits who can report on the magician's position after the fact, like a sound-recognition system can position a sniper after a gunshot. Won't help Target #1, but Freddy the Fire Elemental can be called in to take care of the sniper before Target #2's head assplodes.

I walk a lot, and get bored. So I think.

Edit: TJ and I seem to have great minds. We think alike. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Except that the Common Optics are still listed in the books, sans Electronics. So not all that hard to Find I would think. You have an Endoscope, Mage Sight Goggles, Binoculars, and a Periscope listed right there in the main books as being Optical. And as was indicated, Optical Photographic Equipment is in Arsenal...

And indeed we do...

Given that, any sniping at all or any attempt to "fix" it seems pretty asinine.

Unless you are a Mundane, incapable of Magical Sniping. Then Sniping becomes a very useful tool...

Not against that mage with binoculars, it doesn't.

Forget binoculars, a mage can cast through freaking fiber optic cable.

Sit in a tank and magic-snipe while protected by big fat plates of armor.




-k

Indeed...

But wouldn't the barrier that is the tank, prevent the spell from leaving from the mage to the designated point?

Then you haven't made a sniper. You've made an Olympic grade sharpshooter. That's it.

The spotter role, as someone has mentioned, has been mostly negated through smart guns. The values of a spotter that are retained are ancillary to taking a shot. Guarding the sniper's back and providing a much more appropriate weapon for engaging multiple foes (assault rifle) are about all that remains.

--



There's zero reason to add logic in. Those "small" adjustments are quite huge when you consider that millimeter adjustments turn into multiple inches down range and can be the difference between a miss and a hit. Fine motor control (Agility) is completely appropriate.