In SR4X, and especially 4A, there is a big discrepancy between “progression” for Awakened characters and the Sammies and their brethren. The Karma for Cash rule helps right this to some extent, but being a Mage isn’t really cheap, either. We saw in a recent campaign that, short of just piling dice pools up to the heavens, the Sammy winds up going into other things because they can’t rationalize buying that 6th level in Firearms.

The issue is, having know a few snipers, short of the actual trigger pulling, sniping is a skill set all to itself. It’s precise and methodical. When you’re good enough, a lot of it becomes automatic, and the right tools help tremendously. But essentially what it all boils down to is negating the difficulties (read: DP Penalties) associated with range-to-target and / or target movement.

So, here’s my idea:

Offer a custom skill called “Sniping”. It’s a Combat Active Skill not in any group. It’s tied to Logic (take THAT Mr. “I don’t need a brain to geek drek” Sammy!), can NOT be used untrained and benefits from an Encephalon and a Math Coprocessor like a Hacking skill. Specializations would include “Cold Bore” (First shot), “Rapid Re-engagement” (Follow-up shots), “Rapid Preparation” (read: quickly control breathing after running) and “Precision Targeting” (Bypassing cover, armor, etc). The entire point of the skill is that when attempting a shot beyond close range, as part of the “Take Aim” action make a Sniping roll. Any successes are applied against the negative modifiers at the target’s end of the shot. You need not be stationary, buy you can not be in motion yourself (you can snipe from a moving vehicle if you’re stationary within the vehicle). All penalties which would normally affect a shot from the shooter’s perspective (lighting, self motion, wound penalties and so forth) apply to the Sniping roll.

The maximum number of hits on the roll is capped at Skill x2. The result of the roll replaces the usual +1 for Take Aim, but the sniper can choose to keep aiming. They also may take a consecutive total of 3 + Hits “Take Aim” actions, Max = 3 + Sniping Skill.

This way, you can have somebody who really is JUST a sniper and excels at it without having to be Annie Oakley. After all, if you negate YOUR penalties, are highly skilled in Sniping, and can negate the target side penalties, all you’re doing is squeezing that trigger nice and soft. Plus, if they're Aiming all the time, they're not taking double shots constantly, right? If they're using SS weapons, moreso.

Oh, spotters: Another person who has the same LOS and Sniping skill can assist, making their own roll and contributing their net hits to the trigger-puller’s Sniping roll subject to all the same rules. Maximum one person helping.

Thoughts?

-Kerenshara

Sounds like an unnecessary complication to me, but in an already-heavily-house-ruled-in-the-name-of-"realism" game, knock yourself out, I guess.

We had a really decent player who felt their ex-military character didn't feel "skilled" enough. And I had a toon who was supposed to know how to snipe but it didn't seem to work out so well... whereas that skill would have fixed both problems. That's why I was looking for editorial on the setup. And really, it's not much worse than some of the spellcasting (re: limits) or even physical skills already in place (see all the garbage that falls under Gymnastics?)

-Kerenshara

Game design:
A game should be as realistic (read: believable/consistent) as possible, while allowing for trade-off in terms of playability. This trade-off often comes in the form of simplifying or combining what would otherwise be complex & separate skills and abilities to make the game enjoyable and accessible.

What you are proposing not only goes in the complete opposite direction in terms of playability, it does so for a single, specific instance in the rules while also adding additional, unnecessary rules to the game, increasing it's complexity.


In other words, there is a reason sniping is included in the longarms skill - a good one. This is also the reason why (in my games) Climbing, Running, & Swimming (and Flying, where applicable) are all removed in favor of a single Athletics skill, and part of the reason why Automatics is removed and incorporated into Pistols and Longarms.

I agree a little with Critias. It does seem to over complicate things. I like the idea however. Perhaps make Sniping a complimentary skill to Long Arms. So the Sniper takes a complex action to Use Skill: Sniping. The hits from this roll are then added to the Long Arms test as bonus dice to the dice pool. Simpler, easier, and still fits within most of the existing game mechanics.

Snipers usually don't make snap shots, so the Use Skill option makes realistic sense. A trained Sniper will have a much larger dice pool on the final attack roll than someone just skilled in Long Arms. Your use of Int + Sniping makes sense. I'd apply all the same modifiers to the Sniping skill roll as the Long Arms test except range and smart link as due to the nature of the skill those two modifiers don't make sense.

Just my 2
-D

Bad time to admit our group was looking at tweaking (mostly breaking out) the other Combat skills as well?

The combat system is ... weighty as-is partly as a side-effect of how abstract it is. At least that's my feeling on it. At the same time, if the system is TOO abstract the result tends to become "I shoot it" or "I punch it". Sniping is something that's kind of unusual (unless you're an assasin for example) and at low levels doesn't get you much so I don't see it as having a real "down side". That said, if there's a way to account for creativity on the part of the PCs when it comes to engaging the Bad Guys in the scrum, then I'd love a CONSISTENT way to reward them mechanically besides having to do it by fiat every time ("Um, yeah, you get a +2 on that"), mainly because I've known some disasterously inconsistent GMs.

The basic framework of the game: [Stat + Skill + Modifiers] either opposed by same or as a threshold is a very workable system overall. They way they've chosen to set up the (especailly Combat) skills is where we wind up dissapointed. Biggest second example? Heavy Weapons. What does operating an M2HB HMG have to do with proficiency with wire-guided anti-tank munitions, laser-guided SAMs, or using an 81mm Mortar? Or: What is the difference between firing the M16A2 and the CAR-15 if you're firing the M16A2 in Semi-Auto mode? Why are they different skills (Automatics vs. Longarms). Essentially, breaking the skills out more makes sense to us generally.

We play with a lot of the tweaks as well. I guess I should have pointed out that we ALWAYS play with ALL the DP Caps in place: Max Hits = 2x Skill or 1 (lower); Max DP = 20; Max Bonuses = [Skill + Stat] x 2. And funny thing, despite some pretty impressive builds at the table, we seldom ran into the kind of stupid situations I hear described because people are rolling 40 dice on an attack roll. The system's base mechanics fall apart at that point because they didn't assume that level of... creativity. So we're much more about controling penalities at our table than piling on the dice. Does that make a difference at all?

-Kerenshara

*EDIT* Just so y'all know, we don't have any problems with the Magic system generally, and seem to fall back on THAT when in doubt, believe it or not... whereas a lot of people here seem to be of the precise OPPOSITE opinion. We even decided to go with the "tweak" from Unwired that makes Hacking look more like Magic, bringing the stat into it with a cap.

Hmm, after reading you latest post Kerenshara, I think my suggestion might still be viable. But rather than the Use Skill: Sniping action adding dice to the Long Arms test, perhaps use the hits (or half the hits) from the Sniping skill test reduce penalties on the Long Arms test.

-D

Might want to consider that at least as far as making the shot goes a lot of the mechanical benefits of having a spotter overlap heavily with the benefits of having a smartlink and TACnet, even if the latter is just being provided by a drone and some other good sensors. Which, sorta makes sense, as I've talked frankly with a sniper before and he basically indicated that having a spotter is nice for a lot of reasons but that the best part is that it makes creeping around out there feel at least tiny bit more normal as opposed to mind-rendingly dangerous.

My personal opinion is that sniping does NOT need a power-up. It usually involves an aimed shot with a high base damage and AP, against a target only rolling Body. Indeed, usually the problem with sniping is the opposite one - that it can be a cheesy tactic, and hard to defend against.

I think a skilled sniper would be better emulated with complementary active skills (such as infiltration) and knowledge skills (such as security procedures).

Not underplaying the secondary skills at all. I'm just looking at the ...

Let me put this another way: If I want a sniper character RAW, I buy Longarms to max I can get. But in addition to being wicked with my prefered sniper weapon, I take a sawed-off fully-auto shotgun and mow people down in job-lots too.

One thing our group was very good at was only taking skills comensurate with their background experience levels. Still meant the Sammy could go a little nutz, but he actually stayed very close to story-line. Most people had 2-3 skill with various weapons at best because there wasn't a good way to justify "Veteran" skill with handguns short of long-service military or similar. We're not talking Zero (The Gun-Bunny Physad character from X-Men Origins: Wolverine) here, either. We chose to go with Karmagen because it ENCOURAGED people to take a lot of skills at 1 and 2 to represent cross-training and oddball experience people pick up around wherever.

Maybe we're just weird that way...

I can certainly see where Active Combat Skill: Sniping as I first depicted it would be an exceedingly Bad Thing at a table where people are slinging 40 dice to begin with.

-Kerenshara

This is outside the realm of Combat Skills anyway. What you're proposing is more closely related to a Positive Quality, Adept Power, or Martial Arts Maneuver. In fact, it's essentially Adept Centering or Heightened Concentration, just applied to the target (which is an awkward way of doing it). As an Active Skill, all you're really doing is introducing "okay, you can make two tests to add even more hits to your overall success. But only if you're a sniper, because I like snipers."

There's already a Martial Arts technique that does what you're really trying to do. Krav Maga has "Take Aim becomes a Free Action." And since you can twist and contort the names and descriptions of the various martial arts (they even include one that's firearms based as an example), there's really no excuse for not using that as a basis.

Nevermind that I find it to be a grossly powerful technique in my experience, and one I'm shocked that doesn't show up in broken builds more often. I mean, as is, that's a full +3 dice a shot (or two shots with no bonus as usual with one of them gaining +2 dice) each time your turn shows up. Introduce a Maneuver or Quality that goes along with it that lets you exceed the half-skill limitation on the number of Take Aim actions you can use, and you can build them up at +5 per turn that you spend lining up your shot. Since each of those +1s is effectively equal to a -1 to the target, the same net effect is gained without having to introduce a clunky, biased set of rules that just makes everyone go "wtf can't I do that with my attack of choice, too?!" And no need to go out of your way to explain why the target is getting some random negative modifiers, either.

There's also the small fact that this ignores the most basic concept of the game: When two people of equal Skill perform an action related to their Skill, one shouldn't be getting extra perks just because they chose that skill instead of another one (and definitely not the equivalence of a second Skill to boost the first one). Your problem seems to be one that Sniper Rifles aren't performing the way you'd like. Which, honestly, is quite a joke considering the special ammos and whatnot available for them. But to each their own, I guess.

SR4 does have the issue of making certain things too easy. However, I think you'd be better off utilizing something that SR4 doesn't bother to mention about sniping. This isn't exactly a house rule so much as it is simply enforcing a normal rule that isn't necessarily tied to sniping by the book.

Snipers really need to be good at Perception (visual) to find their target in the first place. Even with binoculars or a scope, at very long distances it can be difficult to spot your target to shoot at him, since you have a very small window through which to search. Now if your target is standing still in a brightly lit field, that's pretty easy. If your target is crouched behind a sandbag in a dimly lit room in the middle of a gunfight with your buddies, it's pretty hard.

I would say that acquiring a target from a kilometer away should require a Perception test.

By the Perception rules, you need to take a simple action to Observe in Detail. The threshold for a "normal" sized target is 2.

Against the guy in the brightly lit field, you're looking at a standard test. Against the guy behind the bunker in the dim room in a firefight, you're looking at a -4 to the test.

Spotters could use the rules for Teamwork Tests (make the same test, hits give extra dice to the main test) to assist in finding the target, so long as they have access to appropriate vision magnification equipment.

After you acquire your target, you can make your Take Aim actions and fire as normal.

Maybe not a Sniper skill, that would be Longarms, but a Spotter skill for the second-member required of a proper sniper team could be a specialty of Perception, under Intuition.

Working together to give a bonus to sniping and combat awareness.

^ That's covered by the Teamwork rules.

There we go, no wonder I had no idea about it, my group never works as a team.

What do you think about just allowing a Teamwork test for the spotter? Possibly with Intuition (since it ties into perception) or Logic if you want to stick to that, instead of Agility?

Agreed with Glyph though. Sniping tends to result in one-hit kills against everything but a heavily souped up troll in milspec armor, and even there it stands a good chance.

Edit: crap. That'll teach me to refresh a page after forgetting I've had it open for an hour
What they said.

Well, when you consider what Snipers do IRL...

You could always remind people how boring being a dedicated sniper would be. While everyone else is running around being awesome, they're sitting somewhere saying "okay I shoot the ork.. okay I shoot the other ork.."

It sounds like your issue isn't that sniping isn't strong enough, but that skills are too broad.

It would not be inaccurate to say that what started this was that I believe the COMBA skills in particular are too broad. (No time to reply to some of the great stuff overnight. Have to hit that later.)

-Kerenshara

many times I read about changing the firearms skills from weapon type to shooting type.

Shooting (Group)
Single Shot and Semi Automatic
Burst Fire
Full Automatic
Long Range Sniping

The Specializations are weapon types

If it hasn't already been mentioned I have found that switching to dice pool penalties = threshold modifiers on a 1-for-1 basis solves a the street sam issue nicely. They still have a good chance of success with their 20+ dice at hitting that threshold 9 shot but the system heavily favors the guy who takes the time to plan everything out and work the penalties in their favor. That to me is the essence of a sniper -- the guy who has the right gear and plans out how to be in the right place at the right time to take the shot. No extra skill necessary apart from knowledge skills your sniper should already have.

My problem with sniping really is the Agility stat link with longarms.

I'm not sure I buy that when you're lying prone, with your weapon on a bipod, shooting down range 1.4 kilometers, that your AGILITY is determining how well you shoot.

make it willpower

I have actually

Um, the slightest twitch will throw off your entire shot. Agility is perfect for that.

You need a surgeon's hand when you're trying to hit a target 1.4 klicks away, along with all the other issues that go along with it.

so really the problem is that Agility is just too good a stat. I can respect that.

Depends on the sniping position and situation.

I'd require willpower rolls for to keep attention for long-term observation of a situation, body to keep from moving around in a nervous manner, and a few other odds and ends as they deem themselves appropriate to me.

Possibly a moral check when you realize that you forgot to wear your diaper and really need to go, and can't even move to use a jar or else give away your position.

Well, Agility is dexterity type of attribute - it covers being able to move something very slightly and very accurately in order to put the sights just where you want them. Think of assembling some electronics thing with really small screws - if your fingers are very agile, it's easy, if you're clumsy, you'll spend plenty of time digging through your carpet for the screws you dropped.

Your point is well-taken, one of the problems with shooting on a bench-rest, bipod, or other stand, is that you essentially take the shooter out of the equation. You're not really holding the weapon, you're just making slight adjustments to the aim. That's why the OP was indicating that LOGIC should factor more into the sniping equation.

Frankly, given how high-tech the SR world is, I'm sorta surprised they haven't published rules for robotic sniping gear. E.g. a motorized stand that either has a rifle built-in, or one you could clamp a rifle into. The sniper would still need to find the target, set-up the robosniper, and compensate for windage, distance, etc. Once things are set-up, the sniper could hunker-down behind cover and link-up with the gun's smartgun/trideo/etc link to observe the targets and make the shots.

They have. They are called, weapon platforms. Essentially static drones. Also, drones set up with autosofts appropriate for that work really nice.
When I make rigger PC's I take one or two rotodrones and give them sporting rifles and nice autsofts. They make amazingly useful snipers and aerial overwatch.

Wouldn't that make mages and hackers better snipers than any sammy or adept?

Alright, it sounds like you may not be addressing the underlying problem here.

Sniping in Shadowrun is anything but underpowered. I think your issue with it is that making a calm long distance shot seems a lot different than popping off shots while sprinting down a hallways.

I think that's what they were trying to get at by breaking out automatics and longarms, but I think swapping skills and specializations along the lines of what Makki suggested would be a better idea for doing that. You could probably add that into a game reasonably well, just let palyers redistribute existing firearm skill BP/Karma into the new catagories.

As for the skill I dislike reducing tactics in the game, and throwing in an "ignore targets planning" skill is a good way to make cover and the like closer to meaningless.

I think your real issue though may be the progression issue between awakened and non awakened.

Personally I'm starting to like the idea of an "attunement" skill for non awakened characters. It represents your spirit (aka true pattern) fully incorporating pieces of cyberware and bioware. This should be visible to astral sight and once attuned you don't get a "hole" for removing that piece of equipment if you wanted to put something in.

Each level of attunement reduces the essence cost of a specific piece or pieces of ware by one, it cannot be taken during initial character generation, and has costs the same as initiation.

This means that sammies can look forward to new toys, instead of having all they're ever going to get in that dartment before the first game session even starts.

Mages are the ultimate snipers. LOS direct target magic with traditional optics can get quite sick when you consider the strength of some Navy Binoculars or a fraggin' TELESCOPE.

We're talking curvature of the Earth at that point!

I actually had an idea of a Shaman that had Photography as a hobby, and used a traditional SLR Camera (Film, Mirrors and Lenses, no digital stuff), and could use a Telephoto Lense for long-range magic. A Fake SIN with a Photographer's License, maybe "Freelance Photographer" as a Day Job for a cover, with a history of taking shots of city scenes from rooftops.

Completely invisible, and able to pick people off at quite some distance.

Can't use optics that don't take up Essence for LOS.

Yes you can, as long as they are not electronic... Binoculars, Telescopes, Mage Sight Goggles, Rifle Optics; these are all viable options.

Mirrors and stuff, yeah, but anything else technological, no. Specifically not cameras.

Cameras (Specifically SLR's) are not electronic in any way, shape, or form. They are using MIRRORS to bounce the image, which is just fine. Now, Most cameras in Shadowrun are Digital, but there is an entry in Arsenal for Old-Style SLR Cameras. These are perfectly fine.

Pure optics work. Just ground glass and such. Check out the description of the Mage Sight Goggles and the Mage Sight System for security in buildings. That's Fiber Optic Cable.

As long as the light that hits the person is the light the magician sees without any interruption that is unnatural (Mirrors are natural), it's Line of Sight.

So, for my Photographer Shaman example, a SLR camera (Again, mirrors and ground glass lenses) would work, but a digital camera (Display screen, even if the lenses are ground glass) would not.

The hard part would be explaining to security why I'm using such "ancient" equipment for my job. But that's what Charisma Skills are for. And, well, play off on the fact that artists are a peculiar bunch. Also, I think there's some kind of spirit photography film that can be used that would make for some interesting cityscape photos. I'm too tired right now to look it up, however. But that would be a reasonable explanation that wouldn't even be a Con.

Sure, you're up there for MORE than just taking pictures, but it's not like you're lying either.

Every Photographer knows that you get much better resolution for Large images by using that "Old Tech" stuff with 25 Speed Film... Besides, this new fangled digital crap is just a fad...

Nikon Non-Digital for the win...
And the Spirit Film is for a Quicksilver Camera. Comes on Glass Plates... Nice stuff...

That's a little vague, because then you have to have a defined range limit on non-electronic imagining tech and give it stats and all that.
Considering that the rule was established to prevent mages from being able to use imaging scopes and what not to cast spells from miles away without giving up Essence, it's a little cheap to turn around and say that's you'll use non-technological telescopes to do the same thing.
Then there is an argument as to the "technological" nature of refracting lenses or what would be the advantage of an imaging scope v. a telescopic lens.
If you were meant to be casting fireballs off a building, there would be mage casting binoculars somewhere.

There are, they are called.... Wait for it... Binoculars...
And why would you need range limits on this technology?

Imaging equipment is not good for mages, because it is generally electronic... Anything that is not electronic, that you can use to gain a better picture of things far away, is okay for Mages to cast through... Even the Fiber-Optic Systems of Mage Sight Goggles and Fiber Optic Mage Sight Security Systems...

I just have my High School photography class to go off of, and I barely passed that. Me and chemicals don't mix... Along with electricity, fire, and a few other things.

As for imaging scopes, I see the standard ones used on rifles and such as being digital in nature, with rangefinders and all other sorts of bells and whistles waiting to be installed. Finding an old fashioned telescopic sight would be hard, and a custom order. Same with binoculars and the like. If you can find some old Navy Surplus Binocs, however... Golden.

Telescopes would be easier, as they're designed for stargazing and the like, but harder to explain why you're carrying one to a roof.

Traditional photography has been mentioned and given stats for in-game, although that's due to the nature of digital formats being easy to fake/doctor (Edit 6 is cheap and legal and gives lawyers the ability to say "Reasonable Doubt" about digital photos/video.). I just took what was already given for ideas (Mage Sight Goggles), and extended it to my personal knowledge of traditional film cameras (Chemicals and me didn't mix, but I studied the hell out of the camera's design and how it functioned.), and bang, done.

The way around the "Mage Sniper" issue is Watcher Spirits who can report on the magician's position after the fact, like a sound-recognition system can position a sniper after a gunshot. Won't help Target #1, but Freddy the Fire Elemental can be called in to take care of the sniper before Target #2's head assplodes.

I walk a lot, and get bored. So I think.

Edit: TJ and I seem to have great minds. We think alike.

Except that the Common Optics are still listed in the books, sans Electronics. So not all that hard to Find I would think. You have an Endoscope, Mage Sight Goggles, Binoculars, and a Periscope listed right there in the main books as being Optical. And as was indicated, Optical Photographic Equipment is in Arsenal...

And indeed we do...

Given that, any sniping at all or any attempt to "fix" it seems pretty asinine.

Unless you are a Mundane, incapable of Magical Sniping. Then Sniping becomes a very useful tool...

Not against that mage with binoculars, it doesn't.

Forget binoculars, a mage can cast through freaking fiber optic cable.

Sit in a tank and magic-snipe while protected by big fat plates of armor.




-k

Indeed...

But wouldn't the barrier that is the tank, prevent the spell from leaving from the mage to the designated point?

Then you haven't made a sniper. You've made an Olympic grade sharpshooter. That's it.

The spotter role, as someone has mentioned, has been mostly negated through smart guns. The values of a spotter that are retained are ancillary to taking a shot. Guarding the sniper's back and providing a much more appropriate weapon for engaging multiple foes (assault rifle) are about all that remains.

--



There's zero reason to add logic in. Those "small" adjustments are quite huge when you consider that millimeter adjustments turn into multiple inches down range and can be the difference between a miss and a hit. Fine motor control (Agility) is completely appropriate.