I only read the very beginning of this thread, but I assume someone mentioned the simple solution of *not* letting a scope negate *all* range penalties?

All the mage has to do is have line of sight, then he manipulates the mana around the point he has a connection with. The Fireball isn't coming from the mage's hands, the fireball is coming from another dimension.

Actually by strict understanding of the rules.. the Fireball should travel from his eyes.. to the very first mirror in the telescope and explode. But then MageGoggles don't make any sense. The short answer is that it's completely contradictory.

This is a very good and important point. Just needed to point that out.

Nope, the Mage Sight Security System (or Mage Sight Goggles) move the Origin Point of the spell to the Point the Imaging Device terminates at. At least in theory, which is what allows them to function as they do.

See I think that Mage Sight Goggles work with direct spells, but by a strict RAW, they can't possibly work with Indirect spells.

Indeed, you have a very valid point, and I can be on board with that.

I think its about particular spell description, direct combat spells and indirect combat spells.

Inirect combat spells: Are blocked by the tank. If I remember well, even cover protects against them. These are no-no.
Direct combat spells: These do come form another dimension. Weep and cry.
Particular spell: Touch spells, obviously no. Some use the caster as center to extend a radius of effect. Clearly these are useless in long range casting via optical magnifications.

Mage snipers are a deadly concept. One that I have toyed with, in SR2, a sniper fire sorcery adept, and once a player made one in SR3. They are /scaaaary/.
He was a full magician and would setup a Sporting Rifle, with a mag 3 scope, a Sniper Rifle, mag 3 scope as well, and have an air elemental on hand. The elemental would raise him on a 2 meter by 2 meter board he'd set as a static shooting platform and would provide long range cover for the group. Movement and safety above earth were the elemental's responsibility. A mage could wave the elemental wiped out? Yes. It never happened, even though I tried.
He would pick rifle or spell according to the situation and needs. It was pretty awesome.

Now, the use of optical amplification and binoculars in attaining LOS is something that comes from an old tradition in SR. I remember when in Corporate Security Handbook the first mage goggles appeared, and the Shadows trembled because now, mages in secure rooms would be picking up on your team without you being able to respond... they also did overwatch through cameras. Talk about scary drek!

Even in the Street Samurai catalog, optical and electronic magnification were differentiated in cybereyes, just for this.

I allow it, because its been the way I've always played SR.

Well, if the Target is moving, it takes continual "Take Aim" actions just to reduce to Short Range as you re-adjust, and you would never get the "Aiming" bonus at all, as you must constantly adjust for movement. So, you (the Shooter) loses any potential bonus from Aiming or Calling the Shot. Which is a big Deal compared to an Immobile target, where these actions can make a huge difference.

The Mage Sight/fireball problem only shows that you can't trust RAW.

I agree, Tymeaus, but that's not great as a solution to the stated problem. If the problem is 'Joe Random with a scope shouldn't snipe', then simply removing or weakening the scope-negates-everything better addresses that. It's far from a perfect solution, certainly. :/

So, in essence (Without the cost of essence) a Mage Sniper can be like a regular sniper, only using Mind Bullets, no Fireballs in the middle of a Squad.

Sniper, not Mortar Team.

But can he kill a yak, from 300 yards away, with his mind bullets?

Curvature of the Earth with his Mind Bullets!

If he can see them, sure...

Not a single bite on the Tenacious D line? Oh fine, be that way...

Watched Speed Grapher have we?

Too easy.


Actually, no. I got the idea walking past a camera shop, and remembering my days in photography class.

Actually indirect combat spells with a set of binoculars to aid casting should be fine, since it's just a small barrier in front of the eyes, while the spell effect doesn't necessarily originate there. Otherwise though, you can still Powerball for AoE and get your magical mortar anyway.
Mage goggles would be tricky as you'll generally be using the fiber to get around obstacles, which would be in the way.

How are the binoculars not "between the caster and the target?"

Yeah, 'optical' optics for magic are totally normal. Also contacts, glasses, helmets, etc. The problem is the canon that you can cast fireball *through* the fiber optics, potentially far away and definitely out of LOS with any part of the mage's body. Oh well.

The simple solution is that you *can't*. Poor mages, they'll have to settle for stunbolt and powerball… like they already planned to.

Back on topic, I think they best solution I heard (perhaps half-heard?) was to make sniping a martial art. If you remove the ability of optics to fully negate ranges, and use MA benefits to add that back in, it seems to solve the problem. Is it expensive enough? (I think probably 'yes'.)

Because the rules say so?

You want bad, imagine an entire building with Mage Sight cables running to every room and hallway.

Spells coming out of the damn walls, man!



-k

That's actually the design in a security handbook, IIRC, although there's a limit to how far Mage Sight Goggles work.

Still...

Mage Sight Goggles, Yes, But the Mage Sight Security System extendss that to some pretty impressive ranges (Couple of kilometers per Fiber-Optic strand if I remember correctly)

Not going to debate on the gear vs. human argument. It's a matter of opinion. In combat, there's this odd thing called "workload". The shooter stays on target while the other person analyzes the shot and calls adjustments. And the extra eyes are invaluable because the scope on the gun usually has a much narrower angle of view than the spotter's optics. But like I said, the extra couple dice aren't worth arguing about here.


This isn't about the physical shooting. Sniping Skill was suggested as an adjunct to pulling the trigger. Actual SKILED sniping has more to do with analyzing variables and making adjustments to the weapon/optics and choosing Kenucky Windage and lead based on what you KNOW. If you KNOW the distance (either by skilled observation or mechanical means), humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, weapon status (cold bore, early shots, continuous fire), wind speed and direction OVER THE LINE OF FLIGHT, target movement speed, BC of the round, muzzle velocity of the round and umpteen other factors you can essentially eliminate all the things which make getting the round where you want it at great distances so problematical. Doing all that takes a lot of very fast number crunching, and the more experienced, the sniper, the faster and more reliable the answers.

I did like the mention about WILlpower above. Control of breathing is absolutely critical at extreme ranges. And if you read the descriptions of the Attributes, I'd say long range braced shooting would be REACTION because it's actually more hand-eye co-ordination than gross motor. But that's a separate argument entirely.

-Krerenshara

P.S.: With the 20-dice cap in place, the DP mods capped at [Skill + Attribute] and hits capped at [Skill x2], being an Awakened sniper doesn't offer a lot more help. You're just more likely to get to the full dice pool more easily than the mundane fellow who has to rely on purely mundane sollutions.

This justification seems precisely backwards to me. Agility is described as your fine motor control while Reaction is poorly defined other than a vague mention of your reflexes. Frankly, I'd recommend largely leaving the agility and reaction descriptions largely out of the conversation, since I get the strong impression that Quickness was given the ax and Reaction changed from being a derived stat largely to keep SR4 from having one almighty uber attribute that everyone felt practically obligated to take. Agility is plenty strong as it is, after all, given that attributes aren't just used to determine a few derived stats and to modify skill costs.

Which is kind of why, yes, a reasonable triggerman with a smartlink is a god of sniping. Electronics do almost all that work for you, in Shadowrun. What exactly is it you think a spotter can do that an appropriate electronics suite can't? Adjusting optics, knowing distance, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, weapon status, wind speed, muzzle velocity, etc, etc? What of that -- if anything -- seems beyond the grasp of technology in SR?

When we're already seeing in real life that there's an app for that, it really seems like some cyberoptics (or just a nice scope), a smartlink, and a few extra goodies on a commlink can handle the vast majority of stuff that a sniper needs a spotter for...and, in fact, stuff that a sniper needs hyper-specialized training for. If most of the thinking and technical know-how is being taken care of, all that remains is lining up the crosshairs and pulling the trigger (which is adequately handled via, well, the existing firearms combat skills).

It should be true, but with RAW, smartlink adds only two dices. Slightly less than what should be the difference between a mortal and a god.

Yes, but the optics can negate all range penalties. Together, it's pretty compelling.

There's more to it than adding two dice, though. There's all the "realism" stuff Kerenshara is talking about that is handled perfectly well by shooter software. Toss in all the other goodies that integrated optics can handle for you (handling lighting conditions, completely negating range modifiers, that sort of thing), and all it really takes to be a "sniper" is someone with a big enough bank account.

Which, well, is kind of how it SHOULD be, in Shadowrun. All it takes to be anything is someone with a big enough bank account.

Quoted for Truth...

And as I pointed out back on page one, what isn't covered by a smartlink+imaging scope combo is likely already covered by a tacnet and a drone. After all, what else is a spotter there for but to observe the events from another "angle" and relay that information in a useful manner? Conversation and some cover fire, mostly.

Of course, the real fun happens if someone's got the skill and the bank account.

Just one note:

Sniping Skill only negates penalties. A Smartgun is a bonus. I never suggested the two weren't interchangable. And a high enough Sniping roll could negate a whole lot more than 2 dice of penalties.

A skilled user always gets a lot more out of the tools they have than a novice.

-Kerenshara

No Doubt...

I what I was insinuating earlier though is that some tools and some veteran tricks are individually useful but more than a bit redundant when combined, sort of like giving an Army Ranger a rating 2 Survival Activesoft. Training wheels keep you upright but when it comes to my racing bike I consider even a kickstand to be extra weight I just don't need.

*waggles hand back and forth*

"Redundant", as you'd define it, means "unnecessary" if your examples are an indicator.

There is a 1st-gen prototype smartgun sniper rifle already on the market IRL, and it includes a ballistic computer that is actually pretty amazing when you get down to it. But unless said smartgun is automatically controling the weapon, all it's doing is providing a very capable tool to help pick up some of the load. Shooters with the new rifle are able to achieve much higher incidence of cold-bore hits at extreme range, but making up for target motion and calculating for barriers and cover is still going to be a lot of intuition.

I know the IT hardware in 2070 is pretty wiz, and the software is spawning AIs, but the ammount of power available to something the size of a Smartgun (remember it's not just chips; it's power supply, optics, interface and a "hardened" enclosure) isn't going to be able to match the TRAINED sniper's brain for things like snap calculations of lead (read: crossing target snapshot) or adjusting for deflection of a windshield.

Does that distinction I'm trying to make here make sense?

-Kerenshara

There's also the "Human Factor". Computers are pretty good at predicting things, but Human Nature is something that just can't be mathematically quantified. You need another Human to read it.

Metahuman, in Shadowrun's case.

Unless you've got an emotitoy. They help read people just fine.

As far as my examples go, staying upright isn't unnecessary, but you do not necessarily benefit from having multiple ways of reaching upright. Sometimes you just have a best option that renders the others superfluous. Anyway, I guess we can argue about this until the cows come home, but ultimately a lot of it comes down to a different interpretation of the setting. I just don't really what a spotter can do for you in terms of plain ol' improving your odds of making the shot compared to a longarms+drone+tacnet+smartlink combo. That pretty well covers know-how, ballistics calculations and appraising the shot from several vantage points. I can see having a trained spotter (ie, someone with Longarms/Firearms/HW) acting as a tacnet alternative or maybe helping out via a teamwork test at the most, but I don't really see including yet another skill and then adding all that up to one big pile of largely unpenalized dice.

Emotitoys are garbage, IMHO. Generally I can look the other way on most things, but these just hork me off.


Y'know, I just re-read the sub-title of my OP, and I guess your answer is "Option B". *grin*

As to another skill, I've been toying around with the skills trying to come up with something between SR3 and SR4X. I'm particularly focusing on Combat Skills. Here's what I'm toying with presently:

[ Spoiler ]

• Brawling
• Martial Art (by type)
• Knives
• Blades
• Clubs
• Staves/Pikes
• Cyberimplant Weapons
• Exotic Melee Weapon (by type)

• Tasers
• Sidearms (Includes Automatic Pistols in SA mode)
• Longarms (Includes other automatics in SA mode)
• Automatics

• Machine Guns
• Grenade Launchers
• Mortars
• Rockets
• Guided Weapons

• Exotic Ranged Weapon (by type)
• Sniping
• Bows
• Crossbows
• Throwing
• Dodge

-Kerenshara

Yeah, I don't see much wrong with an Option B given that when someone says "every Street Samurai" what comes to my mind is a small pool of heavily augmented and specialized future warriors. My opinion of your rule idea depends in large part on context. Within the greater picture of SR4, long range shooting tends to be an ambush and "roll for successes" situation and thus is pretty easy to do with or without a Sniping skill/martial art/whatever, so unless you have more rules changes up your sleeve I guess I see your rule as just making Samurai fall under two categories:

1. Option B.
2. Option B, with extra trimmings.

Most "urban" sniping takes place at distances considered Medium or less (Even for Light Sniper Rifles; See my other post about Firearms that make sense) - Under 500m and usually well under 250m. This is mostly relvant to things like BIG straightaway shootouts in the DMZ where you're aimed down a road a kilometer long with buildings on either side to keep things constrained, or on a real Hot-War battlefield or someplace rural or at least VERY suburban.

As to "more rules changes up [my] sleeve"... this is me, we're talking about. Hello! Are y' new here?

*chuckles*

-Kerenshara

I assumed there were some, but without that context there's not much I can do but offer my opinions based on RAW.

Actually, one thing I like about the video game Homefront is the urban setting of it. Especially in Multiplayer when you get to play with Drones.

One game, I was flying a Recon Drone and told my side: "We have to secure the Hooters. The OpForce is using it's roof as a Sniper's Nest.", and even the people new to the map (Including myself) knew how to orient and assault on it. Shiving the Snipers nicely as they looked down their scopes, not a spotter in sight to help them.

I smiled at that and thought, "Now we need magic and spirits, and we might have a Barrens War going on in Shadowrun.

In reference to the subheader of this topic:
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: you have a computer doing all the measurements for you, so it's kind of just a point and click adventure. How fast can you point and think "pull trigger"?

Otherwise, cool idea.