Which is kind of why, yes, a reasonable triggerman with a smartlink is a god of sniping. Electronics do almost all that work for you, in Shadowrun. What exactly is it you think a spotter can do that an appropriate electronics suite can't? Adjusting optics, knowing distance, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, weapon status, wind speed, muzzle velocity, etc, etc? What of that -- if anything -- seems beyond the grasp of technology in SR?

When we're already seeing in real life that there's an app for that, it really seems like some cyberoptics (or just a nice scope), a smartlink, and a few extra goodies on a commlink can handle the vast majority of stuff that a sniper needs a spotter for...and, in fact, stuff that a sniper needs hyper-specialized training for. If most of the thinking and technical know-how is being taken care of, all that remains is lining up the crosshairs and pulling the trigger (which is adequately handled via, well, the existing firearms combat skills).

It should be true, but with RAW, smartlink adds only two dices. Slightly less than what should be the difference between a mortal and a god.

Yes, but the optics can negate all range penalties. Together, it's pretty compelling.

There's more to it than adding two dice, though. There's all the "realism" stuff Kerenshara is talking about that is handled perfectly well by shooter software. Toss in all the other goodies that integrated optics can handle for you (handling lighting conditions, completely negating range modifiers, that sort of thing), and all it really takes to be a "sniper" is someone with a big enough bank account.

Which, well, is kind of how it SHOULD be, in Shadowrun. All it takes to be anything is someone with a big enough bank account.

Quoted for Truth... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

And as I pointed out back on page one, what isn't covered by a smartlink+imaging scope combo is likely already covered by a tacnet and a drone. After all, what else is a spotter there for but to observe the events from another "angle" and relay that information in a useful manner? Conversation and some cover fire, mostly.

Of course, the real fun happens if someone's got the skill and the bank account. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Just one note:

Sniping Skill only negates penalties. A Smartgun is a bonus. I never suggested the two weren't interchangable. And a high enough Sniping roll could negate a whole lot more than 2 dice of penalties.

A skilled user always gets a lot more out of the tools they have than a novice.

-Kerenshara

No Doubt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I what I was insinuating earlier though is that some tools and some veteran tricks are individually useful but more than a bit redundant when combined, sort of like giving an Army Ranger a rating 2 Survival Activesoft. Training wheels keep you upright but when it comes to my racing bike I consider even a kickstand to be extra weight I just don't need.

*waggles hand back and forth*

"Redundant", as you'd define it, means "unnecessary" if your examples are an indicator.

There is a 1st-gen prototype smartgun sniper rifle already on the market IRL, and it includes a ballistic computer that is actually pretty amazing when you get down to it. But unless said smartgun is automatically controling the weapon, all it's doing is providing a very capable tool to help pick up some of the load. Shooters with the new rifle are able to achieve much higher incidence of cold-bore hits at extreme range, but making up for target motion and calculating for barriers and cover is still going to be a lot of intuition.

I know the IT hardware in 2070 is pretty wiz, and the software is spawning AIs, but the ammount of power available to something the size of a Smartgun (remember it's not just chips; it's power supply, optics, interface and a "hardened" enclosure) isn't going to be able to match the TRAINED sniper's brain for things like snap calculations of lead (read: crossing target snapshot) or adjusting for deflection of a windshield.

Does that distinction I'm trying to make here make sense?

-Kerenshara

There's also the "Human Factor". Computers are pretty good at predicting things, but Human Nature is something that just can't be mathematically quantified. You need another Human to read it.

Metahuman, in Shadowrun's case.

Unless you've got an emotitoy. They help read people just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

As far as my examples go, staying upright isn't unnecessary, but you do not necessarily benefit from having multiple ways of reaching upright. Sometimes you just have a best option that renders the others superfluous. Anyway, I guess we can argue about this until the cows come home, but ultimately a lot of it comes down to a different interpretation of the setting. I just don't really what a spotter can do for you in terms of plain ol' improving your odds of making the shot compared to a longarms+drone+tacnet+smartlink combo. That pretty well covers know-how, ballistics calculations and appraising the shot from several vantage points. I can see having a trained spotter (ie, someone with Longarms/Firearms/HW) acting as a tacnet alternative or maybe helping out via a teamwork test at the most, but I don't really see including yet another skill and then adding all that up to one big pile of largely unpenalized dice.

Emotitoys are garbage, IMHO. Generally I can look the other way on most things, but these just hork me off.


Y'know, I just re-read the sub-title of my OP, and I guess your answer is "Option B". *grin*

As to another skill, I've been toying around with the skills trying to come up with something between SR3 and SR4X. I'm particularly focusing on Combat Skills. Here's what I'm toying with presently:

[ Spoiler ]

• Brawling
• Martial Art (by type)
• Knives
• Blades
• Clubs
• Staves/Pikes
• Cyberimplant Weapons
• Exotic Melee Weapon (by type)

• Tasers
• Sidearms (Includes Automatic Pistols in SA mode)
• Longarms (Includes other automatics in SA mode)
• Automatics

• Machine Guns
• Grenade Launchers
• Mortars
• Rockets
• Guided Weapons

• Exotic Ranged Weapon (by type)
• Sniping
• Bows
• Crossbows
• Throwing
• Dodge

-Kerenshara

Yeah, I don't see much wrong with an Option B given that when someone says "every Street Samurai" what comes to my mind is a small pool of heavily augmented and specialized future warriors. My opinion of your rule idea depends in large part on context. Within the greater picture of SR4, long range shooting tends to be an ambush and "roll for successes" situation and thus is pretty easy to do with or without a Sniping skill/martial art/whatever, so unless you have more rules changes up your sleeve I guess I see your rule as just making Samurai fall under two categories:

1. Option B.
2. Option B, with extra trimmings.

Most "urban" sniping takes place at distances considered Medium or less (Even for Light Sniper Rifles; See my other post about Firearms that make sense) - Under 500m and usually well under 250m. This is mostly relvant to things like BIG straightaway shootouts in the DMZ where you're aimed down a road a kilometer long with buildings on either side to keep things constrained, or on a real Hot-War battlefield or someplace rural or at least VERY suburban.

As to "more rules changes up [my] sleeve"... this is me, we're talking about. Hello! Are y' new here?

*chuckles*

-Kerenshara

I assumed there were some, but without that context there's not much I can do but offer my opinions based on RAW.

Actually, one thing I like about the video game Homefront is the urban setting of it. Especially in Multiplayer when you get to play with Drones.

One game, I was flying a Recon Drone and told my side: "We have to secure the Hooters. The OpForce is using it's roof as a Sniper's Nest.", and even the people new to the map (Including myself) knew how to orient and assault on it. Shiving the Snipers nicely as they looked down their scopes, not a spotter in sight to help them.

I smiled at that and thought, "Now we need magic and spirits, and we might have a Barrens War going on in Shadowrun.

In reference to the subheader of this topic:
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: you have a computer doing all the measurements for you, so it's kind of just a point and click adventure. How fast can you point and think "pull trigger"?

Otherwise, cool idea.