AFB right now, but I'm almost positive sure that all these metamagics you just quoted from the Street Magic are all from Street Magic, which means the book is only refering to the new metamagics provided in the book. Not the ones from the core book (which Masking is one of the few metamagics an Adept may take from the core book).

I wouldn't call them common, but yes, the number of clinics that do the treatment have more than doubled since the days of Hatchetman.
Not surprising, it's been 15 years ingame time between Beyond the Pale and Augmentations.
And once more, they aren't officially NPC only. I think toxics, insect shamans, dissonants, dracoforms and a few very obscure sapient critters are the only things in SR4 that still are NPC only nowadays.




You get drastically raised attribute maxima and you get to cheat death. You won't get fake immortality and Agility 15(22) with 4 points of bio and 3 points of cyber.
As far as getting below -4, i didn't double-check the math, but with lots of geneware and almost any compatible piece of cyber and bio in the book, you can still get to -6 or at least close to it even with full delta, biocompatibility, adapsin and a cybersuit.

Genetic Optimization for every Attribute would net you a Cool 3.2 Essence Loss all by itself, and there are no grades for such things. Throw in a suite of Gene-Tweaked Immunities, and you are almost at 6 Essence loss all by itself. With no further 'ware implanted. It is not all that hard to get to -6 Essence, even with Delta Grade Everything. One could argue that the Procedure uses the optimization of Suites as well, but Adapsion is only for Cyberware. Biocompatability, of course, can be applied to either technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

That house rule is a bit unfriendly to technomancers. Even so, a technomancer with the appropriate Widgets prepared (they add their rating to all [insert specific category of matrix-related] tests, and last for eight hours) is going to wreck some face.

As a side note, I have no problem whatever with a Logic 1 hacker or technomancer. If you want to play an idiot savant, go right ahead. But such a person is not a functional human being, and is likely not smart enough to do complex tasks outside of the one area that he mysteriously excels at. Functionally, he'd be comparable to that Dwarf enchanter character from Dragon Age: "Enchantment?" "I like dogs!" "Doggie! Ruff ruff ruff!" "Can I have some salamanders, please?"

You are under a misaprehension. Logic 1 is Functional... Just barely, but functional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Knew a guy in the Corps that would likely fall into that category in Shadowrun. Took orders really well, but had very little initiative. His ASVAB scores were the lowest I had ever seen, just barely above acceptable.

Yes indeed I somehow mixed up some numbers. The first is also incorrect.
The 50 however is correct. It meant from 9 to 10.

If you choose to interpret it that way, may I suggest the following?

Log1 Hacker: "Ok, so I found the node. Time to break in and get myself admin access."
GM: "Excellent. Roll a memory test."
Log1 Hacker: *rolls* "Two hits on five dice succeeds, right? This is an easy task?"
GM: "For you? No. You have logic 1. This is HARD for you. You forget what you were doing."
Log1 Hacker. "Frak me. Why did I choose to play a hacker with a logic of 1 again?"
GM: "Because you're a bad person."

Metagaming Bullshit.

Not at all. If someone is really prepared to play a character with stats at 1, they should accept the consequences of having done so. You have a logic of 1? This makes you mentally deficient. Not just a bit on the slow side but takes orders well - that would be logic 2 - but truly mentally deficient. Expect it to come up every single time you perform a logic related task, just the same as having a charisma of 1 would come up every time you opened your mouth in a social situation.

If a player is really going to try to be that kind of asshat and will not respond to reason (and, more importantly, is NOT intending to roleplay the deficiencies of his character), then it would be irresponsible NOT to let him suffer the full consequences for his poor decision. In this way, the player can serve as a valuable example to others. This is, of course, all you can hope for if a player is really THAT much of an asshat. Other options include telling him, "No. Build another character."

Whether it's a hard task or not depends on the task alone.
There is no "character has low Attribute level" penalty anywhere in the rules.

As far as the barely functional stuff goes, there's qualities specifically for that.
An attribute score of 1 only means you've got no talent at all for certain skills. Being a complete couch potato requires infirm, behaving as if you just ran out of your home forest for the first time requires Uneducated and/or Uncouth and there's qualities for being dangerously forgetful, oblivious, delusional or outright mentally handicapped as well.

Edit :
Look up Mental Handicap on p. 105 of Runner's Companion. Look up Oblivious on p. 107. Look up Uncouth and Incompetent in the core rules.
That's the stuff you're looking for in your examples.

Per default, SR4 assumes that the character is at least functional. Maybe not by a far margin, but to a point where he could make up for it by training (read : buying the appropriate skills) to peform at least slightly above average at a given task.

I agree with Rasumichin. There is nothing whatsoever in the rules that says that an attribute at 1 makes you mentally or physically handicapped. That is specifically what the qualities are for. In any case, Logic is NOT The Other Game's Intelligence. It is the ability to memorize stuff. You don't have to be autistic to be very bad at memorization.

If a GM is doing what you suggest to a character with an attribute at 1, they are doing so against RAW and through fiat. In that case, 'twould be the GM who is being a bit of an ass, not the player.

Most people have accepted that we have an excellent method for enforcing this, based on probability.
It's called dice.
The penalty doesn't need to be enforced by the GM, it's already enforced by the dice pool. They can still complete the task easily? Then it really is an easy task. Yes, even for them.

The problem is the logic 1 hacker can still have a hacking dice pool in the mid 20s.

Yes, in Shadowrun it really is as easy as pushing the big button labeled HACK.




-k

Before I start:

>>spending half as much as enhanced attribute needed for an (arguably) even better boost.
I have only one thing to say about that.

Sorry, I should have been more specific (damage vs. damage per second). Edge and IPs also play a role in damage, and whoever goes first will have an edge, so initiative has a little weight too. I didn't modify your MysAd in any way, so could we give this one more shot?


Elf:
stats:
Agility 9(13) = 75 BP
Reaction 5(9) = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 6 = 65 BP

Qualities:
Surge class 2 = 10 BP
Restricted gear*3 = 15 BP
Aptitude = 10 BP

Surge qualities:
Metagenetic improvement agility

Skills:
Longarms (sniper rifles) 8(+2) = 34 BP
34 BP

Recources 204k = 41 BP & 5.95 ess (wow, didn't realize I was that close until I did the math)
Ware:
Muscle toner 4 = 32k & 0.8 ess (0.4 ess due to cyberware)
Genetic optimization agility = 45k & 0.2 ess
Reflex recorder = 10k & 0.1 ess (0.05 ess due to cyberware)
Wired reflexes 3 = 100k & 5 ess
Reaction enhancers 1 = 10k & 0.3 ess

Gear:
Helmet with smartlink = 0.6k
Barret with external smartgun system = 6.4k

330 BP used

Dice pool to shoot the barret = Agility 13 + longarms 8 + spec 2 + smartlink 2 = 25 dice
Initiative = 14
IPs = 4

The mundane has 1 less die, and range penalties, but very high initiative and IPs.
I don't know if you can fit 4 IPs and 14 INI on a starting MysAd while maintaining all the rest of that, but we'll see.

At the very least it's clear to me now that adepts can invest for the long run, but whether they will take the day in a short campaign is still up in the air.

They didn't tell us in the book, but in the future, Turing complexity problems are old hat. Instead, Walt Disney complexity programs are used to write Turing complexity programs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/read.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Anyway, yeah, enough aids will do it. Isn't part of that mad boost from skill?

Disagreements over interpretations of what it means to have an attribute rated at 1 aside, on the subject of Adept Hackers, is a mundane hacker left in the dust by adepts and technomancers? Widgets can make a technomancer's dice pools stupidly high. Adepts can easily get their matrix skills to +3 above mundane limits. Hmm.

Oh god no. We already have 8 pages on combat tradeoffs. Imagine what arguing this would do. As for that +3 bonus, can't hackers get any direct modifiers (the ones that count against your 1.5X cap) to their skills?

We should avoid rehashing the whole (subjective) debate over Logic-based hacking here. There are plenty of previous threads about it, or we can start a new one. Suffice it to say that the SR4 canon fluff is that there's *nothing* at all wrong with script kiddies; some *players*, like Tymeaus, disagree. That's fine, but it's a deliberate and personal *setting change*, not a rules issue per se. It is an optional rule in the book which alters the setting in this specific way.

There are also old threads on Technomancer v. mundane hacker, and almost certainly v. adept hacker; it doesn't bear too much on this thread.

As for cybermancy, it's NPC-only. Or rather, it's 'not for starting characters'.

Add these to my mysad
stats:
Reaction 5 = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 4 = 40 BP
Qualities:
Resricted gear 5BP
Gear:
Heath Sustaining focus force 4 8BP + 3BP to bind
spells:
Increase Reflexes 3BP


BP used 396 (yes he's not a working character but neither is really the mundane one)

With a force 4 Increase Reflexes spell with 4 hits active he has 4IP:S and 13 INI
So the Mundane sniper has 1 less dice, 1 more INI, 2 more Edge and 66BP more to spend.

The game makes no such claim of Logic 1 being mentally deficient. While I do think it is fair that the low attribute come up in play each time the character performs a logic related task, it does not mean that the character is really mentally deficient. Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.

Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.
Or You take a negative Quality !

Or the GM gives away a few more Points.

with a few more Dances
Medicineman

Why?
#1 If the guy wants to cripple himself, why do you want to penalize him further? Low Logic hackers are a bit stronger at chargen but fall behind the programming/hardware curve pretty fast.
#2 I'm sorry, no hacker is stupid (Hacker PC yes, hacker no). A hacker is genetically modified to be smarter, has a computer installed in his brain to help him think, and literally soaks his brain in intelligence-enhancing nanites. After that even a complete moron is at least an idiot savant and it just goes up from there.

I think the term you're looking for is script kiddie and no one expects them to be smart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

On the original topic, hackers are probably the archetype (besides Sams) that benefits least from Awakening. That just means that an Adept hacker isn't going to be much better than a mundane one, probably just some minor improvement, but if you absolutely have to be the best hacker you'd probably still go Adept or Mysad

I hate Script Kiddies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As for the absolutely best Hacker? I would go Technomancer long before I went Adept or MysAd. But, then again, I see no reason to go either way. The hacker I have now is pretty damn good. And I still have 'ware I can get to make him even better. Not to mention increasing his skills to 6.

'I see no reason' != 'there is no reason'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I do agree that hacker is only of the least desirable areas of specialty for an awakened, due to the existence of technomancers and to the opportunity cost: the awakened could do so much more, and the Matrix has crappy synergy with the astral, or even magic on the physical plane. *Not* because he's worse than a mundane.

True. But the emphasis was on the "I" part of that sentence. heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I imagine you could make a pretty good hacker with a Mage/Adept/MysAd theme to it. I have just never tried to do so. Using the optional rules set that we do, the extra dice obtained by the Adept for Increased Skill will generally not matter, due to caps emplaced by program ratings. Most adept abilities do not function in the Matrix after all. For the Mage/MysAd bent, the external Magic could indeed help to get a Hacker where he needs to be, but I have often found that the Technology available to a mundane hacker does that job just as well. Of course, a Face Mage/Hacker has all sorts of awesome potential in my mind, so there is that. Maybe I will have to look at designing such a character one of these days, though I have a much better idea for such a character using the Techgnomancer as a basis, that I am currently working on fleshing out now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)