Using a Stupid Interpretation that says Used Alpha Ware is less Essence than Standard New is Munchkinery.

Actually, if you're a hacker, you can cluster all of your cyber together and have another Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 commlink for free. Since Alphaware has a Device rating of 4 (pg 222 SR4A) and to determine the processor limit for a cluster (Unwired pg 55) add up the device rating all of the pieces of alphaware (5 pieces: MBW, Skillwire Expert System, Encephalon, Control Rig, & Cyberarm). This number is then divided in half.

So this Street Doc can have a Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 Commlink with a Processor Limit of 10 for free. All you need to do this is a Computer + Logic (2) test. This Razordoc has 9 dice, he can buy the successes needed to cluster his alphaware together.

This is true... But is not really the point I was making. He gets Alphaware with no essence reduction, which is generally the reason to get Alphaware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that depends on if he had it yanked out to put in Betaware.

I find the concept of used alphaware to be grating, myself. But I'm not sure I can really call it munchkinery, per se, when it is a straightforward option right there in the book, and the "stupid interpretation" is right there in the example on page 32. Personally, I don't think it's worth it to spend 0.96 Essence instead of 1.00 Essence, even if the unreliability of used 'ware is mostly fluff.

Well, stupid interpretation is a rough word for correct math.
I personally dislike adding percentage values together. (This would mean, that if you have more Cyber than bio you are able to but in Delta Bioware for free)

May be a rough word for correct math, but that is not how all examples are calculated. This is debated often here on Dumpshock. If you use "Correct Math" then you have a stupid result like getting Used Alpha Grade 'Ware for less essence than Standard. Which is obviously flawed. If you use the additive method, this does not happen.

As far as personal preferencec goes; you like what you like.

Actually, No it doesn't... You would add up the Bioware index (you said it was lower) with whatever grade of Bioware (and other possible modifiers) you had. Say you had 2 points of Delta Grade Bioware... Since your 2 points is lower than the 4.5 points of Delta Grade Cyberware, you would then Half the Bioware Essence (Because you check values after all modifiers have been accounted for, for Grade, Suites, Biocompatability, etc. FIRST. Once you know which is higher, you half the other). Your Bioware Essence is now a 1 (rather than a 2). See, you did not get Delta Grade Bioware for Free Essence. Easy Peasy.

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why is this stupid in the first place?
Buying high quality stuff used might get you ahead. It might also be broken.
From a realistic point of view it ain't stupid. (Well, the question is how you got it clean etc. but thats handwaved for ware in general.)



So here you start multiplying.

No you dont... it is a post calculation based upon which index is the highest and which is the lowest. It has absolutely nothing to do with the previous calculations whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You cluster them into a single node; that node isn't a commlink.

Not necessarily a good idea:

1. There is no persona nor operating system. The character won't be able to do any of the things a commlink can normally do.
2. He'll have a Signal Rating of 0. Even if the doc had the necessary programs to do normal matrix actions, his signal range prohibits him from doing anything easily.
3. Although alphaware has a Device Rating of 4, pieces of cyberware are peripheral devices and can only run programs they were designed to run. Sorry, cyberarms aren't made with browsing the matrix in mind.
4. Clustering all of your alphaware into a single node makes you vulnerable to hackers. Normally hacker would hack your commlink and then spoof commands to your cyberware or move to hack an individual piece of cyberware. Clustering all of your ware together? One hack and all of your 'ware is in the enemies hands.

OK, so the hacker hits your commlink and then spoofs commands to the most vital piece of your cyber (wired reflexes or what not) and you're still screwed. With a cluster you can run a lot more programs. One thing that I would say that you can load on it is IC. The programs don't need to be running on a node with a persona (pg 52 Unwired) for them to used by the persona. Think about this: You have the cluster I talked about above and you can run 10 programs on it. So for those 10 programs you run the following:

1. Agent 1
2. Attack
3. Armor
4. Agent 2
5. attack
6. Armor
7. Agent 3
8. Attack
9. Armor
10. Medic

That's your Agent Smith Army right there. So that hacker hits you, you have whatever IC sitting on your commlink and THREE other agents riding in to the rescue! Unless he knows you're a paranoid bastard, he's in for a RUDE surprise.

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Also a peripheral devices don't normally have a firmware, but nothing says that you can't load a persona firmware on it. The main rulebook keeps saying that there is a lot of unused processing power

Call it munching all you like, i say it'd be perfectly okay for a cyberdoc who knows the pro's and con's and has access to used alpha by way of his own job to get himself used alpha . .

A cluster loaded with Agent Smiths, slaved to a commlink could be quite useful/cool.



However if the cluster is completely peripheral nodes, then it calls to question if they can run programs they were not designed to use.

My post was more to iterate the point that clustered alphaware can't replace a commlink. If you have to buy firmware and a signal upgrade, one might as well just have commlink.

Signal is a lot cheaper than Response... MUCH cheaper. Also there is no price listed for firmware. I would assume it's like today's community driven sites that allow you to do things with computers and cell phones. The XDA forum for the Nook Color has made it so my Nook Color is now a android tablet with an overclocked kernel running at 1300 MHz (stock Nook has an 800 MHz kernel), and it was 100% free. A Hacker would make sure he's not get a virus, but if the firmware is legit, he's good to go.

Finally, name me a commlink that has a program limit of 10 before you lose any Response... and that's just with 5 pieces of Alphaware. Think about some Alphaware filled hacker. If you have 6 pieces of Alphaware you have a program limit of 12, 7 gives you 14, and so on.

The hacker would still need a standard node clustered in with the alphaware so that he can run programs with the cluster.

Why the hell should a cyberlimb be able to run something like a Attack programm?

Thats medical equipment afterall. It is farly save to assume, that this tends to be mostly hard wired.
Think of a wired reflexes getting its calculation wrong. It would fry your nerve system.

Any piece of cyberware is designated as a peripheral node. You can link these nodes together to make a Cluster. Also remember this Irion, this trick only works for Alpha or better 'ware. Standard 'Ware is worthless for this type of Cluster (Bodyware only has a rating of 1)... And that is how this whole topic came up.

Why the hell would a Street Doc want to make one you may ask... simple, this is a guy who deals with mostly dirtbags. They would rob him blind in a heartbeat.

You cluster your 'Ware together so that you can protect yourself.

Also, you can run sensor software packages on it without taking up valuable processor time from your commlink. Think Lie Detection and Empathy with NO drain on your commlink.


Who in Shadowrun doesn't have a commlink? My Combat Medic Mage has a cyber commlink in his cyberleg.

What clustering does is make it so you don't have to have a second commlink to run all of your IC.

Trying to keep this thread on the tracks, how does being a street doc change the whole implantation progression for my group? We're probably going to have at least 3 other characters that will need cyberware/bioware upgrading, and I'd like for my doctor to be able to assist in that.

Are there more specific rules for making implants from components, or is it just covered under the standard "Using Technical Skills to Build/Repair"? How much would it cost to build an implant from raw components vs. just buying one from a fence? How much should this street doc be charging for his services as an implant surgeon?

How much, if any, of the cost of an implant represents the cost of the surgery to implant it? I'd find it a bit difficult to believe that a synaptic booster costs a character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 80,000 and yet the poor razordoc apparently does that surgery gratis with no explanation necessary at chargen.

as far as I remember, growing Bioware is fairly easy. You need a medical facility or a cybertechnology shop and there is no real difficulty for it to be deltaware rulewise, exept the threshold for implant surgery, which is an extended test anyways. Even if your GM restricts you to standard or alpha, go read into these paragraphs in Augmentation.

Cyberware should be the same as any other mechanical device...

Augmentation gives you the price of regular limbs as bioware, but there aren't any costs associated with making your own 'ware. The build/repair rules assume that you have access to all that you need including materials.

There are no rules for it.

also do remember that a cyberimplant surgery team, is just that. A Team.

They do teamwork tests, for the difficulties of installing implants. If you read augmentation there is the threshholds and such. Don't forget the lifestyle healing issues.

Your facility needs a certain lifestyle in order to help with the healing process after the implants.

this may be your interpretation. If I were a GM and a PC buys a medical facility and pays lifestyle cost to keep it running I would thoroughly read Augmentation p.126f "Growing Organs" and "Procuring Bioware" again and discuss with him.


everybody can manage any threshold in an extended test, that's where the rules suck, but that's how it is. If you need some assistants, get drones.

An assistant might be necessary so you won't suffer from fatigue. It's nice to have someone slap you with stimpatches.

Or the good doctor could just rig himself up with a sleep regulator (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)