Dumpshock Forums > Shadowrunning Street Doc

Loch

May 2 2011, 08:53 PM

Inspired by the "Rogue Medicine" thread, I statted out a street doc cybersurgeon for possible use in a Caribbean League game:

Created using modified Karmagen:
-750 Karma
-Max of 350+2(metatype cost) Karma may be spent on all attributes
-Attribute cost=new ratingx5
-Free Knowledge/Language Skill Karma= 3(Logic+Intuition)
-Free Contact Karma= 3(Charisma+Intuition)
-Gear Restrictions: Up to 12/10R/8F

Anyway, here goes:

[ Spoiler ]

Got

9,925 left to pick out some armor and a commlink. There's also the lifestyle costs to figure out.

The basic character concept is a street doc who supplements his income by shadowrunning on the side. He's managed to set up a black clinic in Havana thanks to a considerable donation from the Batistas, and a mutual arrangement with Tamanous ensures that he has a fresh supply of implants for the gangers of the slums. Dr. Aguilar doesn't know where his ghoul contact Ramon gets the parts from, and he doesn't ask. Doc managed to get surprisingly good security for his slum clinic thanks to some pro-bono augmentation he did for the Spitting Cobras, a local street gang on his block.

Thoughts?

CanRay

May 2 2011, 08:56 PM

I'll see if Ryu still has Dr. McCoy...

sabs

May 2 2011, 09:02 PM

Encephalon 2 is not worth it, and a waste of time. (Sadly)
Encephalon 1 is great, but 2 only adds a bonus for using Craking and Electronics skill while in Aug/VR
So, for your character it's a waste.

Also, you should look at used cyber. It increases the essence usage, but it cuts the cost in 1/2. Allowing you to get way more cyber than you normally might.

Halflife

May 2 2011, 09:11 PM

Rather than the second rank of Ecephelon, PuSHeD (Aug, p. 91) is a good boost to your logic skills for cheaper and less essence. Although it doesn't fall under your Black Market Pipeline unless your GM rules that Transgenics count as 'ware (doubtful).

Makki

May 2 2011, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ May 2 2011, 04:02 PM)

Also, you should look at used cyber. It increases the essence usage, but it cuts the cost in 1/2. Allowing you to get way more cyber than you normally might.

And a street doc will have easy access to used 'ware

There was a medic thread recently, if you need some more ideas: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=34752&hl=

Stahlseele

May 2 2011, 09:16 PM

Used Alpha. Best of both worlds.

Glyph

May 2 2011, 10:30 PM

For the cost of dropping your encephalon: 2 down to an encephalon: 1, you could get PuSHeD, cerebral booster: 2, and a sleep regulator. Also, a street doc with cybereyes, but no microscopic vision?

redwulf25

May 2 2011, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Glyph @ May 2 2011, 06:30 PM)

For the cost of dropping your encephalon: 2 down to an encephalon: 1, you could get PuSHeD, cerebral booster: 2, and a sleep regulator. Also, a street doc with cybereyes, but no microscopic vision?

Microscopic vision is definitely a must for a good Doc with cybereyes. When I built my wife an ex-Doc Wagon character I also bought her a modular cyberarm where she can swap out either a built in med kit or a welding laser (figured dealing with cybernetics would involve a bit of spot welding and in her Doc Wagon days it might have sometimes been used to cut someone out of a wreck) and I figured snake fingers would come in handy digging out bullets.

Summerstorm

May 2 2011, 11:28 PM

Aye, some microspcopic vision would be cool. Also maybe Latin, if he had a formal education. (If not... he has pretty massive skill-levels for self-taught).

Well, with the high usage of surgery drones and remote procedures and such i wouldn't dismiss the encephalon (but yeah it is pretty costly). I would even understand an internal comlink (for a complete library in your head and for running digital assistant-programs for surgery. But you can get that over datajack... WAIT A MINUTE... no datajack?

You are not one of those "trodes" guys, are you? Mark of a professional: A datajack. Maybe multiple ones, so you don't need hubs and splices for your chips and connections.

EDIT: And what is a biomonitor doing in your ears? Cyberlimb-capacity is not the same as cyber-eyes or ears capacity. They don't take bodyware.

sabs

May 3 2011, 12:29 AM

used alpha is a cruel joke perpetrated by the developers. If you DM allows it okay, but in my world, that shit don't fly.

Halflife

May 3 2011, 02:13 AM

QUOTE (Summerstorm @ May 2 2011, 07:28 PM)

EDIT: And what is a biomonitor doing in your ears? Cyberlimb-capacity is not the same as cyber-eyes or ears capacity. They don't take bodyware.

Considering you can have a biomonitor as a wristband or as part of your clothes it would make sense that it can go into internal cyberware like eyes or ears.

phlapjack77

May 3 2011, 02:53 AM

Char looks good, some quick thoughts:

- Like the concept

- He has a really high level of skill with that dart pistol (for a doc). Is there a char background for this?
- Gang leader should be higher connection, SR4A gives an example of a gang member as conn 2, gang boss as conn 4
- What someone said above, a cyberarm with swappable medkit/snake fingers/other stuff could be really cool. Also equip the arm with some sensors / diagnostic stuff.

Loch

May 3 2011, 05:39 AM

Back with a more fleshed out (pardon the pun) Razordoc

[ Spoiler ]

I feel like he's more or less set now, what with a full range of 'ware, a functioning black clinic and a pickup to cart corpses in. This doctor at least has an excuse for all the second-hand alphaware he's crammed into himself (extraction jobs don't go so smoothly when the doctor doesn't *want* to be extracted).

Ryu

May 3 2011, 05:57 AM

QUOTE (CanRay @ May 2 2011, 10:56 PM)

I'll see if Ryu still has Dr. McCoy...

Me? I´m afraid I don´t remember such a char, sorry.

sabs

May 3 2011, 01:19 PM

Gah.. used alpha.. *sigh*
So painful.

Summerstorm

May 3 2011, 02:33 PM

It BURNS US. (Yeah i am pretty sure +20% -20% shouldn't be tricked by mathtricks *g*)

And still biomonitor is a bodyware piece. Can't stuck into into your ear. You can't put a Strength enhancements or armor into it too. Just take the 0.3 essence hit, man.

sabs

May 3 2011, 02:37 PM

If you read the fluff, used alpha is an oxymoron. What makes it alpha, is the extra care used in matching it to your system. Used is the exact opposite of that.

Alpha/Beta/Delta ware from someone else, when implanted into YOU should be just regular used cyber.

Stahlseele

May 3 2011, 02:42 PM

not exactly, Alpha is made from better materials, but still massproduced . .

sabs

May 3 2011, 02:50 PM

used alpha is the same price as regular, but because of some math trickery it uses slightly less essence. That's the epitome of munchkinery.

Stahlseele

May 3 2011, 02:58 PM

*shrugs*
yeah, so?
Using Cyber is IN UNIVERSE MUNCHKINERY!

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 3 2011, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ May 3 2011, 07:50 AM)

used alpha is the same price as regular, but because of some math trickery it uses slightly less essence. That's the epitome of munchkinery.

100% Essence Cost +20% Essence Cost and -20% Essence Cost = 100% Essence Cost.
You are still playing with the mechanics, to be sure, but there is no twinkery about it. You are paying 100% of the Cost for the FULL Essence Cost of the Cyberware. You really did not gain anything out of that exchange.

CanRay

May 3 2011, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Ryu @ May 3 2011, 12:57 AM)

Me? I´m afraid I don´t remember such a char, sorry.

Ryusukanku, the guy that writes about the ShadowSkool when he isn't distracted by shiny things. He comes up with fifty impossible things before he opens his eyes in the morning.

Makki

May 3 2011, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 3 2011, 10:00 AM)

100% Essence Cost +20% Essence Cost and -20% Essence Cost = 100% Essence Cost.
You are still playing with the mechanics, to be sure, but there is no twinkery about it. You are paying 100% of the Cost for the FULL Essence Cost of the Cyberware. You really did not gain anything out of that exchange.

better concealability against cyberware scanners and assenssing

sabs

May 3 2011, 03:29 PM

No using Cyber is part of the game. That's like saying using spells is in universe munchkinery.

Using stupid interpretations of +20% -20% is munchkinery.

CanRay

May 3 2011, 03:29 PM

On the flip side, if said person who had the Alphaware come out of him is still around, he might not be too happy...

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 3 2011, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (sabs @ May 3 2011, 09:29 AM)

No using Cyber is part of the game. That's like saying using spells is in universe munchkinery.

Using stupid interpretations of +20% -20% is munchkinery.

Using a Stupid Interpretation that says Used Alpha Ware is less Essence than Standard New is Munchkinery.

KCKitsune

May 3 2011, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 3 2011, 10:00 AM)

You really did not gain anything out of that exchange.

Actually, if you're a hacker, you can cluster all of your cyber together and have another Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 commlink for free. Since Alphaware has a Device rating of 4 (pg 222 SR4A) and to determine the processor limit for a cluster (Unwired pg 55) add up the device rating all of the pieces of alphaware (5 pieces: MBW, Skillwire Expert System, Encephalon, Control Rig, & Cyberarm). This number is then divided in half.

So this Street Doc can have a Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 Commlink with a Processor Limit of 10 for free. All you need to do this is a Computer + Logic (2) test. This Razordoc has 9 dice, he can buy the successes needed to cluster his alphaware together.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 3 2011, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 3 2011, 12:05 PM)

Actually, if you're a hacker, you can cluster all of your cyber together and have another Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 commlink for free. Since Alphaware has a Device rating of 4 (pg 222 SR4A) and to determine the processor limit for a cluster (Unwired pg 55) add up the device rating all of the pieces of alphaware (5 pieces: MBW, Skillwire Expert System, Encephalon, Control Rig, & Cyberarm). This number is then divided in half.

So this Street Doc can have a Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 Commlink with a Processor Limit of 10 for free. All you need to do this is a Computer + Logic (2) test. This Razordoc has 9 dice, he can buy the successes needed to cluster his alphaware together.

This is true... But is not really the point I was making. He gets Alphaware with no essence reduction, which is generally the reason to get Alphaware.

redwulf25

May 3 2011, 06:27 PM

QUOTE (CanRay @ May 3 2011, 11:29 AM)

On the flip side, if said person who had the Alphaware come out of him is still around, he might not be too happy...

I suppose that depends on if he had it yanked out to put in Betaware.

Glyph

May 4 2011, 11:45 AM

QUOTE (sabs @ May 3 2011, 07:29 AM)

No using Cyber is part of the game. That's like saying using spells is in universe munchkinery.

Using stupid interpretations of +20% -20% is munchkinery.

I find the concept of used alphaware to be grating, myself. But I'm not sure I can really call it munchkinery, per se, when it is a straightforward option right there in the book, and the "stupid interpretation" is right there in the example on page 32. Personally, I don't think it's worth it to spend 0.96 Essence instead of 1.00 Essence, even if the unreliability of used 'ware is mostly fluff.

Irion

May 4 2011, 12:00 PM

QUOTE

Using a Stupid Interpretation that says Used Alpha Ware is less Essence than Standard New is Munchkinery.

Well, stupid interpretation is a rough word for correct math.
I personally dislike adding percentage values together. (This would mean, that if you have more Cyber than bio you are able to but in Delta Bioware for free)

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 4 2011, 01:00 PM

QUOTE (Irion @ May 4 2011, 06:00 AM)

Well, stupid interpretation is a rough word for correct math.
I personally dislike adding percentage values together. (This would mean, that if you have more Cyber than bio you are able to but in Delta Bioware for free)

May be a rough word for correct math, but that is not how all examples are calculated. This is debated often here on Dumpshock. If you use "Correct Math" then you have a stupid result like getting Used Alpha Grade 'Ware for less essence than Standard. Which is obviously flawed. If you use the additive method, this does not happen.

As far as personal preferencec goes; you like what you like.

Actually, No it doesn't... You would add up the Bioware index (you said it was lower) with whatever grade of Bioware (and other possible modifiers) you had. Say you had 2 points of Delta Grade Bioware... Since your 2 points is lower than the 4.5 points of Delta Grade Cyberware, you would then Half the Bioware Essence (Because you check values after all modifiers have been accounted for, for Grade, Suites, Biocompatability, etc. FIRST. Once you know which is higher, you half the other). Your Bioware Essence is now a 1 (rather than a 2). See, you did not get Delta Grade Bioware for Free Essence. Easy Peasy.

No worries though...

Irion

May 4 2011, 03:09 PM

QUOTE

May be a rough word for correct math, but that is not how all examples are calculated. This is debated often here on Dumpshock. If you use "Correct Math" then you have a stupid result like getting Used Alpha Grade 'Ware for less essence than Standard. Which is obviously flawed. If you use the additive method, this does not happen.

Why is this stupid in the first place?
Buying high quality stuff used might get you ahead. It might also be broken.
From a realistic point of view it ain't stupid. (Well, the question is how you got it clean etc. but thats handwaved for ware in general.)

QUOTE

Actually, No it doesn't... You would add up the Bioware index (you said it was lower) with whatever grade of Bioware (and other possible modifiers) you had. Say you had 2 points of Delta Grade Bioware... Since your 2 points is lower than the 4.5 points of Delta Grade Cyberware, you would then Half the Bioware Essence (Because you check values after all modifiers have been accounted for, for Grade, Suites, Biocompatability, etc. FIRST. Once you know which is higher, you half the other). Your Bioware Essence is now a 1 (rather than a 2). See, you did not get Delta Grade Bioware for Free Essence. Easy Peasy.

So here you start multiplying.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 4 2011, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (Irion @ May 4 2011, 09:09 AM)

So here you start multiplying.

No you dont... it is a post calculation based upon which index is the highest and which is the lowest. It has absolutely nothing to do with the previous calculations whatsoever.

Dez384

May 4 2011, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 3 2011, 01:05 PM)

Actually, if you're a hacker, you can cluster all of your cyber together and have another Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 commlink for free. Since Alphaware has a Device rating of 4 (pg 222 SR4A) and to determine the processor limit for a cluster (Unwired pg 55) add up the device rating all of the pieces of alphaware (5 pieces: MBW, Skillwire Expert System, Encephalon, Control Rig, & Cyberarm). This number is then divided in half.

So this Street Doc can have a Response 4, System 4, Firewall 4 Commlink with a Processor Limit of 10 for free. All you need to do this is a Computer + Logic (2) test. This Razordoc has 9 dice, he can buy the successes needed to cluster his alphaware together.

You cluster them into a single node; that node isn't a commlink.

Not necessarily a good idea:

There is no persona nor operating system. The character won't be able to do any of the things a commlink can normally do.
He'll have a Signal Rating of 0. Even if the doc had the necessary programs to do normal matrix actions, his signal range prohibits him from doing anything easily.
Although alphaware has a Device Rating of 4, pieces of cyberware are peripheral devices and can only run programs they were designed to run. Sorry, cyberarms aren't made with browsing the matrix in mind.
Clustering all of your alphaware into a single node makes you vulnerable to hackers. Normally hacker would hack your commlink and then spoof commands to your cyberware or move to hack an individual piece of cyberware. Clustering all of your ware together? One hack and all of your 'ware is in the enemies hands.

KCKitsune

May 4 2011, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 01:56 PM)

You cluster them into a single node; that node isn't a commlink.

Not necessarily a good idea:

There is no persona nor operating system. The character won't be able to do any of the things a commlink can normally do.
He'll have a Signal Rating of 0. Even if the doc had the necessary programs to do normal matrix actions, his signal range prohibits him from doing anything easily.
Although alphaware has a Device Rating of 4, pieces of cyberware are peripheral devices and can only run programs they were designed to run. Sorry, cyberarms aren't made with browsing the matrix in mind.
Clustering all of your alphaware into a single node makes you vulnerable to hackers. Normally hacker would hack your commlink and then spoof commands to your cyberware or move to hack an individual piece of cyberware. Clustering all of your ware together? One hack and all of your 'ware is in the enemies hands.

OK, so the hacker hits your commlink and then spoofs commands to the most vital piece of your cyber (wired reflexes or what not) and you're still screwed. With a cluster you can run a lot more programs. One thing that I would say that you can load on it is IC. The programs don't need to be running on a node with a persona (pg 52 Unwired) for them to used by the persona. Think about this: You have the cluster I talked about above and you can run 10 programs on it. So for those 10 programs you run the following:

Agent 1
Attack
Armor
Agent 2
attack
Armor
Agent 3
Attack
Armor
Medic

That's your Agent Smith Army right there. So that hacker hits you, you have whatever IC sitting on your commlink and THREE other agents riding in to the rescue! Unless he knows you're a paranoid bastard, he's in for a RUDE surprise.

----------------

Also a peripheral devices don't normally have a firmware, but nothing says that you can't load a persona firmware on it. The main rulebook keeps saying that there is a lot of unused processing power

QUOTE (SR4A pg 221)

Peripheral devices have no persona firmware, and are usually just smart enough to serve their function, although many have unused processing power. Such devices also often offer significant storage space in unused memory. One advanced use of peripheral devices available to programmers and hackers is the clustering of multiple peripheral devices together to create a distributed computer (rules for such advanced applications such as clusters can be found in Unwired).

Stahlseele

May 4 2011, 07:10 PM

Call it munching all you like, i say it'd be perfectly okay for a cyberdoc who knows the pro's and con's and has access to used alpha by way of his own job to get himself used alpha . .

Dez384

May 4 2011, 07:26 PM

A cluster loaded with Agent Smiths, slaved to a commlink could be quite useful/cool.

QUOTE (Unwired pg 48)

Peripherals use the same rules as standard nodes (see Devices and Software Ratings, p. 206, SR4), with some restrictions. They are only able to run a single persona and can only run programs they are designed to use.

However if the cluster is completely peripheral nodes, then it calls to question if they can run programs they were not designed to use.

My post was more to iterate the point that clustered alphaware can't replace a commlink. If you have to buy firmware and a signal upgrade, one might as well just have commlink.

KCKitsune

May 4 2011, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 02:26 PM)

A cluster loaded with Agent Smiths, slaved to a commlink could be quite useful/cool.

However if the cluster is completely peripheral nodes, then it calls to question if they can run programs they were not designed to use.

My post was more to iterate the point that clustered alphaware can't replace a commlink. If you have to buy firmware and a signal upgrade, one might as well just have commlink.

Signal is a lot cheaper than Response... MUCH cheaper. Also there is no price listed for firmware. I would assume it's like today's community driven sites that allow you to do things with computers and cell phones. The XDA forum for the Nook Color has made it so my Nook Color is now a android tablet with an overclocked kernel running at 1300 MHz (stock Nook has an 800 MHz kernel), and it was 100% free. A Hacker would make sure he's not get a virus, but if the firmware is legit, he's good to go.

Finally, name me a commlink that has a program limit of 10 before you lose any Response... and that's just with 5 pieces of Alphaware. Think about some Alphaware filled hacker. If you have 6 pieces of Alphaware you have a program limit of 12, 7 gives you 14, and so on.

Dez384

May 4 2011, 08:39 PM

The hacker would still need a standard node clustered in with the alphaware so that he can run programs with the cluster.

Irion

May 4 2011, 08:52 PM

Why the hell should a cyberlimb be able to run something like a Attack programm?

Thats medical equipment afterall. It is farly save to assume, that this tends to be mostly hard wired.
Think of a wired reflexes getting its calculation wrong. It would fry your nerve system.

KCKitsune

May 4 2011, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Irion @ May 4 2011, 03:52 PM)

Why the hell should a cyberlimb be able to run something like a Attack programm?

Thats medical equipment afterall. It is farly save to assume, that this tends to be mostly hard wired.
Think of a wired reflexes getting its calculation wrong. It would fry your nerve system.

Any piece of cyberware is designated as a peripheral node. You can link these nodes together to make a Cluster. Also remember this Irion, this trick only works for Alpha or better 'ware. Standard 'Ware is worthless for this type of Cluster (Bodyware only has a rating of 1)... And that is how this whole topic came up.

Why the hell would a Street Doc want to make one you may ask... simple, this is a guy who deals with mostly dirtbags. They would rob him blind in a heartbeat.

You cluster your 'Ware together so that you can protect yourself.

Also, you can run sensor software packages on it without taking up valuable processor time from your commlink. Think Lie Detection and Empathy with NO drain on your commlink.

QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 03:39 PM)

The hacker would still need a standard node clustered in with the alphaware so that he can run programs with the cluster.

Who in Shadowrun doesn't have a commlink? My Combat Medic Mage has a cyber commlink in his cyberleg.

What clustering does is make it so you don't have to have a second commlink to run all of your IC.

Loch

May 5 2011, 01:08 PM

Trying to keep this thread on the tracks, how does being a street doc change the whole implantation progression for my group? We're probably going to have at least 3 other characters that will need cyberware/bioware upgrading, and I'd like for my doctor to be able to assist in that.

Are there more specific rules for making implants from components, or is it just covered under the standard "Using Technical Skills to Build/Repair"? How much would it cost to build an implant from raw components vs. just buying one from a fence? How much should this street doc be charging for his services as an implant surgeon?

How much, if any, of the cost of an implant represents the cost of the surgery to implant it? I'd find it a bit difficult to believe that a synaptic booster costs a character

80,000 and yet the poor razordoc apparently does that surgery gratis with no explanation necessary at chargen.

Makki

May 5 2011, 11:10 PM

as far as I remember, growing Bioware is fairly easy. You need a medical facility or a cybertechnology shop and there is no real difficulty for it to be deltaware rulewise, exept the threshold for implant surgery, which is an extended test anyways. Even if your GM restricts you to standard or alpha, go read into these paragraphs in Augmentation.

Cyberware should be the same as any other mechanical device...

Dez384

May 5 2011, 11:43 PM

Augmentation gives you the price of regular limbs as bioware, but there aren't any costs associated with making your own 'ware. The build/repair rules assume that you have access to all that you need including materials.

Irion

May 6 2011, 12:06 AM

QUOTE

as far as I remember, growing Bioware is fairly easy. You need a medical facility or a cybertechnology shop and there is no real difficulty for it to be deltaware rulewise, exept the threshold for implant surgery, which is an extended test anyways.

There are no rules for it.

sabs

May 6 2011, 12:36 AM

also do remember that a cyberimplant surgery team, is just that. A Team.

They do teamwork tests, for the difficulties of installing implants. If you read augmentation there is the threshholds and such. Don't forget the lifestyle healing issues.

Your facility needs a certain lifestyle in order to help with the healing process after the implants.

Makki

May 6 2011, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (Irion @ May 5 2011, 07:06 PM)

There are no rules for it.

this may be your interpretation. If I were a GM and a PC buys a medical facility and pays lifestyle cost to keep it running I would thoroughly read Augmentation p.126f "Growing Organs" and "Procuring Bioware" again and discuss with him.

QUOTE (sabs @ May 5 2011, 07:36 PM)

also do remember that a cyberimplant surgery team, is just that. A Team.

They do teamwork tests, for the difficulties of installing implants. If you read augmentation there is the threshholds and such.

everybody can manage any threshold in an extended test, that's where the rules suck, but that's how it is. If you need some assistants, get drones.

Dez384

May 6 2011, 01:03 AM

An assistant might be necessary so you won't suffer from fatigue. It's nice to have someone slap you with stimpatches.

Loch

May 6 2011, 01:06 AM

Or the good doctor could just rig himself up with a sleep regulator