Actually, The Point of Clustering is to create a system that can use software, with greater limits than the associated Comlinks could produce, from something that could not previously do so.

A cluster of 2-3 Delta Grade Datajacks is far cheaper than the Equivalent Comlink. Which is Yerameyahu's point. You get the functionality of a Rating 6 Comlink with greater capacity than that Rating 6 Comlink, AS WELL AS the Functionality of a Datajack when needed (by declustering). Something for nothing...

I will say this, though. It is nice to have the option to cluster your 'ware in a crunch situation. I would not run a cluster consistently. If I wanted greater processor limits, I would use a Nexus. But when you are in a bind, captured, equipment removed, but you still have access to your 'ware, it is handy to be able to cluster that ware for a rudimentary Comlink that is capable of using whatever stored programs you may have thought ahead to store in internal memory somewhere. I see it as a sort of emergency application, rather than something that I would do on a consistent basis.

isn't a Credstick device rating 6? I could just cluster a hundred of those...

Sure... Again, something for Nothing.
Of course, carrying around all those credsticks gets to be a bit annoying... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No, and it shouldn't be. That's what clustering sneakily fixes.

I've already explained the point of clustering, and it has nothing to do with hack-proofing. Skinlinking is SOP for *everything*, and doesn't decrease communication ability in a way that matters.

6/6/6/6 is not "relatively cheap", nor is it chargen-available, and I've already pointed out just one of the deltaware abuses. It also works, as I said, just fine with betaware, and it's still an issue with alphaware.

While increasing the processor limit was the suggestion here, the real effect of clustering is creating free standard nodes (without, as Tymeaus speculated, disabling their base function in any way).

Credsticks actually aren't Device Rating 6, since Unwired. They realized how absurd it would be if people deliberately misunderstood what Device Rating was for, so they gave explicit Peripheral Node stats: credsticks are 2/2/6/6, to resist being hacked. It's too bad they don't have the time to give such stats to everything, but the GM should certainly feel free to do so at need.

If you slave the cluster to the cyber commlink then you can't hack the cyber without going through the commlink. Also, the cluster can run a whole host of IC to protect the commlink from getting hacked. So I consider a cluster essential, but only if you have alpha or better cyberware. Standard grade bodyware only has a rating of 1... worthless. Getting betaware is the best 99.99% 'Runners are going to get, and that's where clusters shine.

As for clusters not being able to run software... there are real life clusters (Beowulf) that run on really cheap hardware that can do some pretty amazing things. IN 2072 Shadowrun, computer hardware is so damn cheap that they put computer circuits in your fracking underwear. So the idea that higher grade cyber has under utilized processing power is not world breaking.

Had not noticed that they fixed the ratings of Credsticks... Good to know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Back to Empathy software: to run it at high rating (unless you houserule program options), you need a nice system. You also want to run basically all the other nifty sensor softs, all the time. It might just be easier to wear a laptop-nexus or something, but the basic idea is plenty of processor limit for those, IC, subscriptions to all your friends, Agents… a hacker who doesn't have to choose between programs is a happy hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

KCKitsune, I certainly agree that clustering should exist. But if you incorporate hardware into a beowulf, it doesn't keep doing its original job seamlessly, and almost certainly has to be physically co-located; SR4 clustering doesn't impose either restriction. For implants, there's just no reason to assume they put in anything extra, and clustering is *repurposing*, not skimming.

Which is why Technomancers are useful. No worries about Program Limits, everything can be up at the same time.

Only if they CF or thread the dozen+ programs I'm talking about. Seems harder.

They should have made credsticks 1/1/6/6. Why would you need a signal for something that you slot anyways. Seems pretty damn stupid to me.

@Yerameyahu: Why would the cyberware have to be repurposed? I mean there is software right now that allows you to run a separate OS while running your current OS. For a cyberware system, this would work out like this:

• Processor power would first go to the original function
• Then Processor power would go to system checks (minor system hit)
• excess processor power would then go into the cluster pool.
• The cluster pool would then act as a node for running software.

They would indeed have to CF them (or thread them) of course. Have an interesting People Watcher charactrer in mind pulled from the PACKS, with this very concept in mind. It is pretty nice to be able to have all 40 or so (possible) CF's running simultaneously. It is difficult for a Hacker to do the same thing without a lot of work, and nuyen, at making it possible. It is heavily Karma Intensive though, which is liikely the issue keeping a typical Technomancer from accomplishing such a thing.

Because you no longer have to slot that Credstick to use it?
Whether it is stupid or not really depends upon how secure you want your money to be. How many people use online banking these days? Most do so due to the illusion of security that is present. If everyone knew how easy it was to compromise such things (for people with the know how), they would not use it. Hell, I know how easy it is, and yet I really like the convenience of it. Go Figure.

OK, I can see that, but anything higher than a signal of 0 would be insane. I mean with a signal of 1 you have a range of 40 meters. 40 METERS! Isn't that a little overkill? Signal of zero would give you a range of 3 meters. That *should* be plenty for something that you slot.

Yeah, I know, it is a bit crazy... I agree that Signal 0 is more than adequate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I agree, Signal 0's plenty for a credstick, but oh well.

KCKitsune, I'm saying that I don't see cyberware having *any* extra capacity at all. Why would it? It's a single-purpose embedded device. Clustering it would be like people installing Linux on their VCR: messy. You're comparing it to general purpose computers: non-peripheral nodes.

And there *is* no minor system hit. There's no tradeoff or penalty at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

A Deltaware datajack costs 5k. A Rating 6 Response costs 8k, 4k if you make it which most hackers do. All of that is assuming that a datajack is a cluster-able thing, with it's own System and Response and everything. I don't think a datajack has a device rating as it doesn't have programs to run. You can't give a datajack a command.
Now a Cyberarm or Wired Reflexes or what have you, I'll grant that those are cluster-able, but those are also way more expensive. Far more expensive than just getting a new Response.

And no good sentence ever started with the word "Actually,"

8 grand for the Response, 2 for the Signal, 3 for the Firewall and 3 for the System. That's without building your own and using Piracy. In that case it's about 6 grang total. After that, all you need is the Response to start clustering, which is still cheaper than deltaware, unless you are using datajacks as Devices, and even then it's only a little cheaper. It ain't cheap, but it's cheap compared to deltaware. It's certainly not more of an "abuse" than clustering commlinks or anything else.


This is what I'm talking about when I said that the point of clustering was to make things more difficult to hack.
Yes, it does make the cyberware more difficult to hack and allows it to run IC, but it makes it easier to Spoof and it lets a Hacker, or more likely Rigger, be able to give one Command to your cyberware and have it effect ALL your cyberware.
This can be negated if you run your cyberware off a Skinlink or DNI, but if you do that the it's not hackable anyway, so I don't see the point of clustering it to begin with.

A 90% pirate discount is pretty massive, and you're leaving out the initial cost of the comm 'chassis'. I already showed the math above. It's massive't cheaper than getting an equivalent comm the honest way, and it's Avail -- instead of Avail 16.

Again, it's not about protecting the cyberware from hacking per se. It *can* run IC, but that's not the reason for doing it. The reason is processor power. I dunno how many times I can answer the same question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except folk like KC say that's the point of clustering. My reasoning is to them, not you. I think your point on that issue, unless I'm very much mistaken, is to just DNI or Skinlink your cyberware to make it unhackable/spoofable, thus making the need to cluster for the sole purpose of making it less hackable is pointless. I totally agree.

The only piece of deltaware I can find that is cheaper than a Response 6 commlink is a datajack, which I maintain isn't a device as their aren't commands it can carry out. Maybe low rating cybereyes and ears without any upgrades, but if somebody is willing to do that just to get a rating 6 device, I think I might just give it to them. While getting access to deltaware doesn't technically increase it's Availability, it's pretty implicit that tracking down a delta clinic is work in and of itself.
I'm just saying that clustering cyberware isn't any more munchkiny than clustering anything else.
As to whether clustering itself is too much of a munchkiny thing to do, I can't really say. I can see both sides of that issue. It's never come up in any of our games, so I can't speak from experience.

I agree: cyberware aren't devices in that sense. There are people who claim they are, bleh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess I misunderstood KCKitsune. I didn't think the message was 'cluster because it protects from hacking', just a side-mention about being able to run IC if you wanted. After all, this was originally brought up as a way of running Empathy software; hacking had nothing to do with it.

So teeth compartments are listed as cyberware, which can be taken as deltaware, which has a device rating of 6...

Oi Vey !!!!!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

But if you start clustering those, you'll have an unfair advantage over hillbillies and rednecks.

Nope, you can optimize the commlink, but the +1 bonus only applies for using the empathy software to make a judge intentions test, as thats the only test the program is used.

Surely a datajack can run self-diagnostics as well...

Much Like any Other piece of electronic equipment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)