… They'll have either their meat IPs (probably 2-3), or they'll have VR (3 off the bat). You're far too dismissive. No one's saying they'd be expert, but that's not required.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but the point still stands.

Unwired does. SR4 Core Rules did say differently. But yes, I see your problem. I have it too.


Unlike the wireless Matrix? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


That very much depends on your players really.


SR4 core book, game concepts and changes section and IIRC, Matrix. Don't have by ebooks on me and the computer my PDF are on died today, so sorry, pages will have to wait. NOT SR4A, nor Unwired. It was fixed with Unwired, as I wrote.


The programs do not get several kinds of boni a hacker gets. The hacker gets VR and Hot Sim boni on anything if he's any good, so that's +4 dice, or one more statistical success, in a contest with equal program ratings, with no further optimisation. You can further push this up with qualities, commlink modding and by teamworking with agents. All you can do on the defense side is put agents in your commlink, and those things both cost and slow down anything else you do. Unless you abuse the hell out of software options, you're always on the weaker end as a defender in SR4.


Yeah, I mentioned hard encryption. Slaving can be spoofed though, which is another of these unfair contests.


It's so easy to kill your characters, then, that it's hard to reason why corpsec never does it.


Because there is no such thing as triangulation and rifles?Not to mention, of cours,e everyone trusts their real, business commlink to a stranger, crook and murderer.

Swap out Rifles for a Troll ballista.

Well, you can hack a missile, since it's not an immediate hit (unless you wifi disable the missile of course). You cannot hack an old rifle without fancy wifi stuff.

Troll Ballista. Troll with a huge Bow and indirect Fire Capability over Houses and the such ^^

Meh. Technically, every node should be swarming with Agents analyzing any incoming Icon and they should have several defensive nodes wired or slaved together. In my experience, it's just too much darn work for most GMs and even if they design it, it means the Hacker and GM have to run an hour-long mini game.

While it's certainly possible to bring your teammates on a hack, after all you can do a group hack and all get in together even if your teammates contribute no dice, but I've never run into a situation where I wanted unskilled teammates with me instead of agents.

My general advice would be to skip a lot of the hacking rules for unimportant systems. If the hack wants to hack an R3 system and he's rolling 16 dice, don't even bother, just tell him he succeeds. Save the rules for the big hacks and don't worry about the rest.

An average level 3 node can't handle anything more than 3 agents with analyse and an analyse program. it will shut down if 10 programs are running simultaneously. So no, nothing should be swarming. Because processor limits work that way.


Welcome to the real world.


Works, sure. Just like it did in SR3. Didn't SR4 want to change something about this? I faintly remember ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SR4 also wanted to reduce the ammount of dice rolled . .

Wait, when's the last time you hacked an R3 node on a run. Does anyone, even script kiddies, even bother to roll for R3? Any Corp should be packing at least one Nexus, and if it's a choke point 10 agents analyze is very doable. Plus, while an R3 node can only run 3 agents, you can host agents on other nodes and send their agents/IC over to the choke point to help scan/kill intruders.

As for integration, yeah, SR4 has a lot of the same core issues as SR3. I recommend you use the same workarounds: keep the hacking time to a minimum and don't bother rolling for any but the most important hacks. I don't think hacking is uniquely problematic, any system that has characters specialize in different fields like SR is gonna have times when only one character can do anything. Everyone has these "special" moments, hackers are just the worst of the lot.

Except... Have you actually tried it?

We have, and it works quite well (Not all the time, of course, but enough that its use is evident)... You can get a LOT of mileage from Worms and Agents and not have to actually have a lot of skill like you are implying. Secondary Hackers are a treasure trove for the Hacker as they tie up the system with the Obvious BS, while the Hacker moves through the system like a ghost.

Try it sometiome, you might be surprised.

And a note from your previous post. Once you have a competent hacker, he can crack the software he is using (if he has not done so already) and pass out free copies. He can BUILD the comlinks to rating 5 cheaply, and distribute them (or steal them from some source, or whatever) so that the hardware requirements are met. He can Build a Nexus that lets them ALL use a Top of the Line hacking portal for relatively cheap as well... There are a lot of solutions for the expense of allowing everyone to be a secondary hacker, if you are willing to pursue them.

The only skill you really need is Hacking... Cybercombat is Nice, but there are alternatives. The character I played did not have Cybercombat for well over 100 Karma, because that was not his focus. It was easy to get around with Worms and Agents (While I ran). There are always alternatives...

I memorized it cover to cover for the first character, first game I ever played. Turns out no one else in that group, GM included had, so I ended up just making Computer success tests for everything and the GM magical tea partying it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: SR3 matrix is superior in all ways compared to SR4 matrix. Not that it was perfect but it's better than the steaming pile SR has currently.

Wow... Can't say that I agree, but whatever works, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Right! Thanks for reminding.


Most statted grunts and mid-tied NPCs in Missions have R3 to R5 links. So yes, if you go by official stuff and ignore the steaming pile of shit that is War, R3 is very relevant. Because originally the SR4 Matrix was meant for R1 to R6 in everything.


You can also abuse the Ergonomic software option (all utility proggies are Ergonomic, all agents are not), design yourself software suits of "everything an angent ever needs and Home Ground" and optimise Agents and Programs for 6, allowing your R3 node to run 9 all-6 IC with no penalties to them, who have acces to every program under the sun. You could cluster seveal R3 nodes and have a bazillion agents roam there. I was talking of a vanilla node and vanilla programs. The SR4 Matrix offers dazzling abuse and optimisation opportunities, but that comes with an enormous amount of Red Tape. And all that requires either massive systems of SR1/2 proportions, all statted out (which was what SR4 wanted to reduce, not increase, over SR3), all with several tallies to keep track of, and the options/clustering/ect abuse requires Unwired.

In other words, if you invest several hours, you have a decent R3 node that probably can defend itself against a chargen-level hacker with some notable margin of success. That's ... not really a working system.


Yeah. Disappointing, is in't it?


I fully agree.

1. AR is ubiquitous and omnipresent. Everyone has access to AR and can interact with it. In fact it's the primary interface the majority of the time.

2. Everyone can use AR to do Matrix tasks. Hackers are better, and TM are nigh unto Matrix gods.

The best mapping for SR1/2/3 experienced GM/Players is to think of AR as Astral Perception, and VR as Astral projecting. and Hackers as adepts and TM as Mages, but everyone is awakened. How did you integrate those elements into your game?

GM Tips: AR makes things richer, describe the AR first. Everyone should be using it. Describe the scene accordingly. Shadowrunners walk into the bar, they don't just a room full of people. They get targeted drink specials based on their order history, they see everyone labeled in the room based on the compatibility of common interests, hot spots indicated to them based on past interactions, open requests for discussions based on past interactions. etc etc.

Overlay everything with AROs, describe the interactions based on interacting with ARO. When they realize the Hacker/TM can hack it, modify it, enhance it, protect it, then they will add that element to the game all on their own.

Right, except for the majority without the means to display it or interact with it, huh?

Where do you get that from.
The majority of people have imagelink glasses or contacts, and commlinks.

Its easy to SAY that, but when you actually look at the rules, even googling Data Searching needs one hit or two.

And since you can't default to skill on the matrix.....

well, even 'simple' operations are going to need a rating 5 program (you default on program -1) to buy a hit. (if you don't have the skill, i'd be dubious about allowing hits to be bought anyway).

Or even changing your access ID, which is something every runner should know how to do. Thats a 2 threshold spoof test.

So yeah. Handing a freebie skill at one actually makes a lot of sense if you know what you need it for.

This, basically.

Open the door to the players, let them decide if they want to put points and effort into it.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this "majority" thing. A bare minimum commlink and image link is 125 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) If you're living on the streets and can't save up you could instead pay 75 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the one you bought "lightly used" off the back of Guido's Mobile Electronics Shop and Armory.

Your "Should have" seems based on an optimal gamist defense strategy. I prefer a consensus between GM and players regarding the level of the game. The SR4 matrix can still be very numbers-heavy, and an arms race will very likely end up with the dreaded hacker subgame. The level suggested by the sample device ratings table works without complex matrix strategies.

Except that all those Agents take up resources. Kinda.

Even a Nexus has limitations on what can run on it. The problem comes from the fact that there's no limit to how many agents/users can be connected to a Nexus at all.

And being connected to a Nexus does not degrade the response at all. It's very counter intuitive, and results i weird setups.

Unless the GM is matrix savvy, then its going to be a time sink whenever the hacker wants to do anything.

But, if the GM is matrix savvy, he can lead the player quickly (or better yet, both GM and player is savvy and they can both move through the rolls and results quickly). You don't have to ignore any rules, leave the rules to important tasks or create a hybrid lite version. But, you need to have that knowledge and move through it quickly.

I mean, after a couple combats, everyone at the table understand how combat, melee or ranged, works and its no longer an issue. You don't have to look stuff up and everyone knows what they need to roll and communicate to the GM. Until you get the matrix rules running that fast, well, then you are going to eat up a lot of time working just with the hacker.

Yeah, data searching without the skill is bringing you a lot of false positives and other glitches.
Kinda the same as in real life, don't you think?

Changing your access ID may be as habitual as smoking for hackers. For common users, it's a serious undertaking - kinda like uploading new firmware for your motherboard today.

Commlink: 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) min, 300 if you want it to be actually usable.
OS: 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) min.
AR gloves: 250 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .
Glasses with Image Link: 50 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) min.
So, the absolute minimum for a commlink that's bringing you the joys of AR is 800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Compare that to low-end lifestyle costs in Runner's Companion.

Now, SoNA puts SINner population below poverty level at 26% (in 2061, though), and around 30% are SINless, which are not accounted for in the poverty level statistic at all. That puts us at around 56% of UCAS population not being able to procure AR capability, because it costs significantly more than what they can afford to spend on their basic necessities in a month - and that's one of the most developed countries in the world.

It's a one-time purchase, of course. Most people couldn't buy a TV and Xbox every month… doesn't mean they don't have it, even 'poor'.