RAM 3500 SRT

Not really. The all-or-nothingness mentioned before actually works (i.e. doesn't happen) for DVs that only just kill you: If you have 9 boxes, and you take 9 or 10 DV with 9 armour, you either get a serious headache, or a serious wound - but you won't die. A lethal wound in SR4 begins at DV10, because an average human (3 Body, 9 boxes) could still soak 1 DV.

Yes. Imagine it like this:
Combatants A and B are exchanging blows. A goes first. B has to decide if he will use his combat pool or not.

If he does, he may win. A gets a wound modifier, and from now on will be rolling against a TN of 5 or 6 (and combat is basically over for him).
If he does not, A will probably win. B gets a wound modifier, and will be rolling against a TN of 5 or 6 (and combat is basically over for him).
Hence, in melee combat, use as much of your combat pool as early as possible. Your 'dodge' and 'hit back' are the same action, so there's no choice. It is most critical that you hit the other guy first, because whoever has the lowest TN (i.e., fewest wounds) is most likely to be the winner.


Regarding discreet armor; SR3 and common sense dictate that yes, walking around downtown in combat armor will attract some funny looks and cause trouble. It's very difficult to 'mix with the crowd' on a run while wearing layers of (even nice) armor, rather than the same clothes everyone else is. You stand out. Remove that limitation (as most GMs do), and combat gets easier. CC adds a lot of 'classy' armors, but they aren't as nice as the less classy armors, and layering armor, per the rules, stands out.

Except in circumstances where the target can actually soak that melee damage. In that case, the one who wins is the one who used his Combat Pool more judiciously. You see this in circumstances where your 'Runner is opposed by multiple opponents in melee combat. Using all your pool early will usually mean that you lose, unless you so far outclass the opposition that it would not really matter.

As for Discrete armor, why would the GM remove one of the only balances against obvious heavy armor? I certainly never did.

In circumstances where you are engaged in melee combat and one participant is basically impossible to damage, combat is already decided, no?



If you're fighting multiple opponents, combat already is decided unless you can disengage or kill one of those opponents in the first round. 2 opponents is effectively already applying a wound effect.

I'm wondering if I'm completely missing your point? Except for fringe cases, like you're getting attacked in melee by someone with nerf weapons, while also getting shot at by someone with an AK, I can't think of any melee combat where you would not want to dump all the CP on the first round.



Because it makes combat easier, which was the specifically requested modification.

Well, brawling with somebody/bodies while somebody else goes:"Fuck that shit" and shoots at you happens, in my experience, often enough in Shadowrun . .

I used to think that if you were the one starting the fight and attacking two people (which, using some MA maneuvers is less difficult than you may think), that you did not have to incur the melee penalty for fighting two combatants (because you're fighting them one by one).
So:
You attack the first guy normally, and then attack the second guy, getting a +2 (+1 with MA) to TN.
But when they hit back, you're meleing them both, so you get a +2 to TN in addition.

In those circumstances you want to have lots of reach (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and a fat CP.



I repeat that it was possible to get almost entirely bullet-proof using only Tres chic clothes, and totally legitimate clothes, unless it's summer. (I.e. a form-fitting, a fancy suit, and an overcoat, coming to 8/4 or 9/4 or so.) In summer or at dinner parties you just have to suck it up.

How with the fancy armor?
The only way i can figure out was the way i described it further up thread . .
Also: Yes, Reach. Lots of it. In SR3, Trolls were close combat monsters, not elves . .

Absolutely not. I agree with your setup; if you engage Guy A, and Guy B's turn hasn't come up yet, no penalties apply. However, in those circumstances you want to EITHER throw all your CP into your first attack against Guy A (TN of 4) and take him out early, or if you have that option, use half your CP on Guy A (at TN 4) to wound but not kill him (increasing his TN from 4 to 5), then use the remaining immediately afterwards to do the same to Guy B.

What you seem to be suggesting is you use 0 CP when the TN is 4, and all your CP when the TN is 6. That doesn't make any sense. At least if you nail Guy A hard enough early on, your TN is 6 and his TN is also 6, so you're even with him.

In the case of getting shot while in melee, again, unless the melee attacker is using a nerf weapon (i.e., can't hurt you) and the ranged attacker is using a serious weapon (i.e., CAN hurt you), you use CP on the melee combatant first. Remember that using CP in melee counts double; first to dodge an attack, and second to attack someone else. CP against a ranged combatant just can't compare.

Soooo true.
Last night, had a non-optimal ninja adept Vs an optimal Troll melee expert. The only reason he didn't die the first swing was he had Close Combat as a martial arts manuver and she didn't use the katana for defense.
The ninja made it through 13 rounds of melee combat (1d6 +5 was his init roll, as I said, non-optimal) and got out of there marked (soaked the damage to nothing with combat pool) bruised and bloody, but none of it his. (Really good rolls, smart positioning, etc.)

"I see your Tiger Style is strong. My Dragon Style is stronger." (Do the cantonese/english dub faces while saying this and you'll know why our table broke up in laughter)

-Tir
"Oh, Mercer, Mercer, Mercer!" (On finding our Johnson, betrayed and beaten by his trusted sister in law)
(Player, who's name is Marcia, the GM's sister in Law) Oh, you did NOT go there.

-T (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Give a Troll a Reach 1 or 2 Weapon. Easy enough with Telescoping Staff and Collapsing Baton.
Hilarity Ensues. Either the Troll simply soaks all Damage from his opponents and hits everything with the -3 to his TN, or nothing ever hits him because of the +3 to their TN.
Or he uses the Natural Reach to lower his own TN and the Weapons Reach to add to the enemy TN. Or the other way around. Oh you can have so much badong fun with that.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting anything on the CP use, just that you want lots of it. I agree with dumping a safe margin into your first attack - within reason.

If you have 1 or 2 reach, and enough dice to attack with without CP (for example, you are using a reach weapon with a +2 martial maneuver and a specialty for at least 9 dice and a TN of 2 or 3), then you might not need so much CP for a nearly certain hit. Once the other guys have to roll 6s it's basically all over for them. So you put in another three or four dice of CP, and unless you are fighting a prime enemy, you are dealing with about 8-10 dice (CP boosted to max ranks of skill) for the defence against a higher TN. With a good weapon, i.e. 10+ S or D base damage, that's a near certain kill or maim on the first strike.
(I had a Magic Adept Troll who would go invisible and then hit people with a dicoted poleaxe for 14D on a single hit - never mind that he had 3 reach and everybody defending hat +4 TN due to vision mods against an invisible attacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . So far the theory, I don't think I ever took that poleaxe anywhere. But even the telescopic staff was good enough).



While you should be making sure that you are only fighting mooks when getting into a situation like that, I agree.

Now one thing I have to say: Melee in SR3 was really, really viable compared to now. I remember fights where people were constantly missing their firearm attacks because all sides were behind cover (a minimum of 6-8 TN), and then one of the runners would break out the katana and go on a frickin home run. Sure it was risky, but it was really good fun.

A particular scene I remember is when a group of runners were holed up on the upper floor of a warehouse building in a harbour, and we were doing the all-out merc attack scene from Black Lagoon, where basically every merc in town goes after that one group. There were enemies in the building, some coming up the outside stairs, a troll mini-gunner on the opposite roof, and about four cars outside with 8 remaining goons peppering the windows. (Maybe 3-4 primes, the rest were grunts of varying capabilities.) After the minigun had basically taken out the entire upper floor wall, our troggy machinegunned the other troll, and then there was lots of missing on all sides, until my human alrounder sammy leaped out of the window onto one of the cars and whipped the heads off two of the mercs with his katana, exposing himself completely to enemy fire, but somehow surviving it. And then he was behind the cover, dropped the sword and could gun down the rest of the mercs. (And the other chicken-shit runners dared come after him, which was the important part.) Good times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

It was great the way TN mods could force you to do things like that in SR3, whereas I'm not sure I would risk it in 4th.

Nods, SR3 was way more pink mohawk/cinematic compared to SR4 in my eyes . .

I agree 100%.

Those tactics sound really awesome. I tend to either have very conservative players, who always use cover and make for long, 'safe' firefights, or absolute crazies who run in first and eventually get mowed down. That ability to go from one mode to another would be a good thing for them, I think.

Well, that guy was MADE to do reckless things. We played without overdamage (D+ or D*) rules, and basically he could take a 500lb bomb to the chest, via the then RAW, and survive. (Not that I advocate not using fiat at that point, but...) It was one of the funnest characters I ever made, because there was no engagement distance where he didn't work (except vs snipers), and he could also throw a mean punch or kick, too. I wouldn't even say he was overpowered - very optimised, but without overspecialising, so he didn't overshadow people in their fields. But he could rock out all combat sitations without being totally out of place in society, like most troggy sams or heavy cyber sams ended up being.
Unfortunately it's almost impossible to do quite the same in SR4 - it's just the million nY that's missing at chargen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which I see as an Absolutely good thing, and was the point I was making above (somewhere)... The scenarios you get in SR4 are not nearly as crazy in effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Each to his own... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Indeed...