OK. Am I missing something, or is dodge ALWAYS the answer? There is no downside to taking performing a dodge, as far as I can tell, except you use some of your combat pool, for what is normally a lower target number. I seem to remember in second ed, if you scored more success on your dodge than the attacker scored on his skill dice (regardless of pool sucesses) you completely dodged the attack.

Is this a way to make combat a little less deadly, or is there something else? Usually, I assume that the dodge is part of the combat pool, but...

Normally I ignore the dodge (as well as knock back ) rules, because then I start thinking of the benifit to dode with increased quickness, or an adapt power of bullet dodge...what about if you are wired to the max? Besides, dodging bullets?

!DODGE!

DAMMIT, i wanted to link that *g*.

Hm, i am a bit rusty in the 3rd edition rules... but isn't the ONLY way to dodge using your combat pool? Or am i just too tired to understand the post?

Ah well. Two things you use the pool for except that:

1. You are the fastest dude on the field and have only one/two foes: Just pour all into attack and wipe it clean before anyone can even target you.

2. You are damn good armored. Use your combat pool to take down damage, because it is easier than dodging. (Roll against 2 for lower damage for example, when the dodge is 4-6).

Well, we used to run "Dodge is god" but after re-reading the rules (yes, you SHOULD reread the damn rules 1/year, min) we're now far closer to the book and reaping/suffering the benefits.

Dodge is king for ranged combat, elemental spells and full-defense melee.
Opposed martial art skill checks are god when it's melee time. (Base TN 4, less reach/species modifiers)
Spells are spells - unless it's elemental, you're not going to have much luck dodging that.

As with everything SR3, the faster you lower/raise those TN's to your advantage, the happier you are and the longer you live.

Extra armour impacts on dodge - you can be a turtle, but someone's going to nail you with APDS or, god forbid, an antitank round, with that drop in dice.
Combat pools help. In fact, sometimes you can't live without them.

But Surprise combat (Ohoh, "Reaction rolls people!") means those pools aren't there while your ass is hanging in the wind.


Knockback is awesome...and HURTS. (Bola rounds are especially fun, 2 of those and your target's on the round waiting for chainsaw and the organleggers)


Combat IS supposed to be deadly. It's why you try and think a little first, and respect that pissant little ganger because, god knows, he might roll beyond stupid and your 600K Sam might be so much dogmeat.

-Tir

Hmm, the way I remember it we used dodge to take just a few successes off the attack if it was worthwhile:

For instance, the attacker gets four successes to hit me with a heavy pistol, that would do 9D. I have 9 armour, but only 6 Bod, then I don't dodge, I instead use the pool for the resistance test, because I need to get eight 2s.

In another case, a guy plugs me with a sniper rifle for two successes, doing 14D. Now I dodge vs 4s, but need 5s for the resistance test. So I dodge with four dice or so, hoping for two successes.

(We usually house-ruled that we could ALWAYS dodge, even unaware, representing a freak dodge, like bending down to do your laces just when the sniper fires.)

Dodge is almost always the answer, but not 100% of the time. You'll always wanna roll reaction because it's essentially free, but you may not want to dump combat pool into it.

The break point is is your armor allows your soak number to be reduced below the dodge number, generally. For instance, I had a mage who had cranked off a huge armor spell and was also wearing FFBA and an armored jacket. The total ballistic armor he had was something like 16 or some ridiculous-ass number, because all three armors stacked directly at 1-to-1, rather than using the usual armor stacking rules. He also had a pretty high combat pool, as mages tend to, due to high Willpower and Int and whatnot. I think it was 9 or 10.

So he got shot with a missile, and he was gonna have to roll his Reaction of 4 against 9 or so successes. Statistically, that meant he'd have to throw down with all of his combat pool and still wouldn't be likely to dodge completely (18 dice would be statistically likely to completelyd dodge), and I was trying to save some of his karma pool for the remainder of the fight. On the other hand, the TN for soaking was gonna be 2, since I was loaded out with so much damn armor.

This was in 2003 or so, so I don't recall the full breakdown of the rolls, but it ended up being easier to soak the damage than spend combat pool to dodge.

This is pretty much how I saw it. Dodge is almost always 4 (plus wound mods) where a 9M heavy pistol would usually be a target 5 or 6 (but, you don't use wound mods on the soak roll). So a normally armored, uninjured target should spend some, if not all depending on other concerns, of his combat pool on the dodge. But, someone who is already shot to hell, will probably want to depend on the armor and extra pool to soak.

So, what about the other part of my query? Does anyone allow high quickness or heavy wires bonuses to the dodge? What about a spell that could be used just for dodge...something like the combat sense that gives extra pool

We used Acrobatic dodging, where you made an acrobatics roll (or in some cases an athletics roll) and got the successes as bonuses to combat pool, usable only for dodging. Of course, you basically can't attack while doing that. (Mods for running attacker.) However, since melee halves most mods, and IIRC doesn't even give a modifier for running attacker, it makes sense to stunt into melee and slice and dice people without getting killed on the way. At least one of my chars did that - not extensively, but a little.

?? You don't roll reaction to dodge. You ONLY roll CP. If I've been doing it wrong for the past ten years, then yes, absolutely, always dodge.

A major component of SR3 is tactically managing your combat pool. Imagine you're in a shoot-off against another guy, and both of you are lightly armored. You get initiative. The TN to hit is 5, and you have 6 skill dice. The 'obvious' answer is to hold CP for dodging (TN 4). But you have to remember, with your 6 dice you most likely will hit, but it won't be a good blow, maybe L after dodge. Load up that CP (let's say 4 dice out of 7) and you can guarantee he'll get an L. When his turn comes around, his TN to hit you isn't 5, it's 6. He'll be lucky to get one hit, and you only need 2 dice to dodge to avoid it altogether.

The contrary option is you with hold your dice. Your 6 to hit probably gives 2 successes, he rolls 5 to dodge and succeeds, then he has the luxury of dumping his remaining CP to hit you. 8 dice to hit vs. 7 to dodge, it's not looking great.

This is also complicated when you have multiple participants. Your mage casts and sustains a spell. There are two guards, one subdued by said spell. You can either withhold your dice so YOU can dodge, or you can dump them all in attack and make sure your mage friend stays alive (and his guard stays down).

Plus when there's multiple combatants, there's always the possibility no one will shoot at you, and so your CP is wasted.


In melee combat, it is ALWAYS desirable to dump your CP as soon as possible. Melee is a contest of 'who gets the first hit', because even if you have 6 and he has 3, once he gets a hit in, you lose that advantage.

There is a rule for using acrobatics for dodge, when you are doing nothing else but moving. I can't remember which book it's in though, maybe one of the SOTA ones.

I also never use the rules for knockback. Just too many extra rolls and rules, for too little gain.

How to make combat less deadly? Don't enforce the social stigma for wearing armor. Don't enforce the rule limiting armor to the top two items. I've seen characters with 16/14 armor.

Wired reflexes et al.? Anything that adds to your intelligence, quickness or reaction (wired reflexes does) adds to your combat pool, so permits you to dodge more. At my table, we've also put in the rule that if you have not had your first action in a combat turn, you suffer a penalty (the other guy is faster than you). So there, wired would eliminate that penalty. Plus wired gives you the first shot, which means you're more likely to put the guy down before you HAVE to dodge.

Huh?
Isn't it both roll skill and maybe pool dice and who has more hits deals damage?

As for Armor.
Even if you're using the 2 top most items only count and the lesser counts only half, you can get some fancy armor set ups . .
FFFBAS and the Camo Suit for example. Ballistic = first number/Impact = second number.
4/1 and 5/3 makes for 7/4 already. Which means a Shotgun that Deals 10 Deadly Damage?
Yep, you need to roll 3's to stage down. If you roll eight 3's or higher, you take a 10D Shotgun Blast to the face and laugh it off . .
Or the FFBAS and the Victory Industrious Winter
4/1 and 4/4 means 6/5 Armor. Get some Fore-Arm-Guards for another +1 to Impact Armor. Bam, 6/6 Armor.
If you wanna munchkin . .
Camo Suit and Victory Industrious Winter.
5/3 and 4/4 means 7/5(or 6 depending on wether or not armor fractions round up or down . .) and take the forearm guard again. 7/6 armor.
And Cyber/Bio-Armor is still an option and directly adds to this too!
You can get 2/2 Built in Armor cheap and easy and inconspious. And now you are at 9/8 Armor.
Congratulations. You are basically Bulletproof. If you get your Body up to 10 or 12 for example, you can pretty reliably soak Damage from Shotgun Burst Fire or HPIS Burst Fire. Even with ExEx Ammo.

Huh? Is there such a rule in SR3? You just take the biggest item and halve all the others, and then there is encumbrance limited by Qck, not bod like in SR4. You can make entirely business capable 9/8 armour, IIRC, and when you go all-out, slap on a helmet.
As a mage you can get 15-16, but for mundanes it's pretty hard I think.

There were rules for Social Combat.
Pretty detailed rules too, at that . . .
But the effects could be a bit silly sometimes . .
Why wearing armor makes it harder for you to convince somebody of something is beyond me.
On the other hand, wearing armor makes it EASIER for you to threaten somebody . .

Re: Social armouring

Basically, it was in-game fluff for the GM's to say, "No one in the right mind would wear combat armour to this joint, it's classy!" and hitting the players with a suitably horrible TN modifier on the face's rolls saying, "Look, it pays to look tough, but bringing that walking freakshow into Chez Pierre's isn't a statement of power, it's a statement of "I can't control these monsters and you were lucky they didn't piss in the soup"".

Low-profile, 'Natch.

-Tir

Which is, in itself, kinda dumb, considering that the FFBA is all but invisible to anybody looking and the Industrial Winter is high class armor . . or at least close enough to that . .

SR3 had all that "social environment" stuff, where it was important to wear "tres chic" in posh environments. Fair enough, but even with Tres chic it was possible to be so well armoured that it hardly mattered...

At least in SR3, Armor was worth something.

True that! Every single point counted, and now a point is what? 0.333 statistical damage absorbed.

This is just what I most seriously miss from SR3: weapon rules and armour rules. Weapons could really be diverse (even if the Devs didn't go nearly far enough with that), and you could armour up to be a really tough mfer.

I actually like this particular change, A Lot. In SR3, I could reliably not take damage from small arms, up to Sniper Rifles. It engendered an attitude that Unless you were bringing heavy military ordnance, well, I walked through it, No Tactics Necessary. Now, that character really has to determine if he is just gonna stand there and soak that crazy ganger's SMG burst. It may not work out for you like it used to, and I like that. You no longer have the convenience of just ignoring threats. It promotes tactics and thought, which I like.

How To Survive Being Shot: Step 1. Be where the bullets aren't.

Oh, but all the GM had to do was give his gangers some cheap AKs, or use ex-ex ammo. Or use SMGs with 6-round full-auto or so. There were always options of hurting the PCs.

And private thugs would demonstratively switch to APDS (an ammo that actually had a point against people, whereas now it's purely anti-spirit ammo).

I guess it's a matter of choice: I like a bit of predictability, whereas some people might like that every move could be their last.

Like I said, my memory for this event may be hazy, due to the fact that I've been playing SR4 since it came out, and so my memory of SR3 rules has gotten fuzzy. I'll take this as gospel, cuz franky I don't remember.

I tend to agree with the SR4A damage/armor. It feels so far to me anyway, that instead of a hit that gets through the mammoth defenses/die pools, etc to do serious or more damage, you have more little dings here and there that start to add up and have an affect beyond 'oh crap time to get out of combat before I fall over and start bleeding out'.

for me, the SR4 Damage/Armor-System is too much all or nothing . .
So you are wearing 20 points of Armor?
If the DV is 19, you have to soak 19 points of stun, if i understood this correctly. Meaning you keel over one way or another . .
If the DV is 21, you have to soak 21 points of physical damage. Meaning instead of keeling over, if you fail, you go splat . .

If the DV is 8 or higher, you probably should be looking at getting knocked around pretty seriously or dead. Unless you are a troll.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE!!!

RAM 3500 SRT

Not really. The all-or-nothingness mentioned before actually works (i.e. doesn't happen) for DVs that only just kill you: If you have 9 boxes, and you take 9 or 10 DV with 9 armour, you either get a serious headache, or a serious wound - but you won't die. A lethal wound in SR4 begins at DV10, because an average human (3 Body, 9 boxes) could still soak 1 DV.

Yes. Imagine it like this:
Combatants A and B are exchanging blows. A goes first. B has to decide if he will use his combat pool or not.

If he does, he may win. A gets a wound modifier, and from now on will be rolling against a TN of 5 or 6 (and combat is basically over for him).
If he does not, A will probably win. B gets a wound modifier, and will be rolling against a TN of 5 or 6 (and combat is basically over for him).
Hence, in melee combat, use as much of your combat pool as early as possible. Your 'dodge' and 'hit back' are the same action, so there's no choice. It is most critical that you hit the other guy first, because whoever has the lowest TN (i.e., fewest wounds) is most likely to be the winner.


Regarding discreet armor; SR3 and common sense dictate that yes, walking around downtown in combat armor will attract some funny looks and cause trouble. It's very difficult to 'mix with the crowd' on a run while wearing layers of (even nice) armor, rather than the same clothes everyone else is. You stand out. Remove that limitation (as most GMs do), and combat gets easier. CC adds a lot of 'classy' armors, but they aren't as nice as the less classy armors, and layering armor, per the rules, stands out.

Except in circumstances where the target can actually soak that melee damage. In that case, the one who wins is the one who used his Combat Pool more judiciously. You see this in circumstances where your 'Runner is opposed by multiple opponents in melee combat. Using all your pool early will usually mean that you lose, unless you so far outclass the opposition that it would not really matter.

As for Discrete armor, why would the GM remove one of the only balances against obvious heavy armor? I certainly never did.

In circumstances where you are engaged in melee combat and one participant is basically impossible to damage, combat is already decided, no?



If you're fighting multiple opponents, combat already is decided unless you can disengage or kill one of those opponents in the first round. 2 opponents is effectively already applying a wound effect.

I'm wondering if I'm completely missing your point? Except for fringe cases, like you're getting attacked in melee by someone with nerf weapons, while also getting shot at by someone with an AK, I can't think of any melee combat where you would not want to dump all the CP on the first round.



Because it makes combat easier, which was the specifically requested modification.

Well, brawling with somebody/bodies while somebody else goes:"Fuck that shit" and shoots at you happens, in my experience, often enough in Shadowrun . .

I used to think that if you were the one starting the fight and attacking two people (which, using some MA maneuvers is less difficult than you may think), that you did not have to incur the melee penalty for fighting two combatants (because you're fighting them one by one).
So:
You attack the first guy normally, and then attack the second guy, getting a +2 (+1 with MA) to TN.
But when they hit back, you're meleing them both, so you get a +2 to TN in addition.

In those circumstances you want to have lots of reach and a fat CP.



I repeat that it was possible to get almost entirely bullet-proof using only Tres chic clothes, and totally legitimate clothes, unless it's summer. (I.e. a form-fitting, a fancy suit, and an overcoat, coming to 8/4 or 9/4 or so.) In summer or at dinner parties you just have to suck it up.

How with the fancy armor?
The only way i can figure out was the way i described it further up thread . .
Also: Yes, Reach. Lots of it. In SR3, Trolls were close combat monsters, not elves . .

Absolutely not. I agree with your setup; if you engage Guy A, and Guy B's turn hasn't come up yet, no penalties apply. However, in those circumstances you want to EITHER throw all your CP into your first attack against Guy A (TN of 4) and take him out early, or if you have that option, use half your CP on Guy A (at TN 4) to wound but not kill him (increasing his TN from 4 to 5), then use the remaining immediately afterwards to do the same to Guy B.

What you seem to be suggesting is you use 0 CP when the TN is 4, and all your CP when the TN is 6. That doesn't make any sense. At least if you nail Guy A hard enough early on, your TN is 6 and his TN is also 6, so you're even with him.

In the case of getting shot while in melee, again, unless the melee attacker is using a nerf weapon (i.e., can't hurt you) and the ranged attacker is using a serious weapon (i.e., CAN hurt you), you use CP on the melee combatant first. Remember that using CP in melee counts double; first to dodge an attack, and second to attack someone else. CP against a ranged combatant just can't compare.

Soooo true.
Last night, had a non-optimal ninja adept Vs an optimal Troll melee expert. The only reason he didn't die the first swing was he had Close Combat as a martial arts manuver and she didn't use the katana for defense.
The ninja made it through 13 rounds of melee combat (1d6 +5 was his init roll, as I said, non-optimal) and got out of there marked (soaked the damage to nothing with combat pool) bruised and bloody, but none of it his. (Really good rolls, smart positioning, etc.)

"I see your Tiger Style is strong. My Dragon Style is stronger." (Do the cantonese/english dub faces while saying this and you'll know why our table broke up in laughter)

-Tir
"Oh, Mercer, Mercer, Mercer!" (On finding our Johnson, betrayed and beaten by his trusted sister in law)
(Player, who's name is Marcia, the GM's sister in Law) Oh, you did NOT go there.

-T

Give a Troll a Reach 1 or 2 Weapon. Easy enough with Telescoping Staff and Collapsing Baton.
Hilarity Ensues. Either the Troll simply soaks all Damage from his opponents and hits everything with the -3 to his TN, or nothing ever hits him because of the +3 to their TN.
Or he uses the Natural Reach to lower his own TN and the Weapons Reach to add to the enemy TN. Or the other way around. Oh you can have so much badong fun with that.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting anything on the CP use, just that you want lots of it. I agree with dumping a safe margin into your first attack - within reason.

If you have 1 or 2 reach, and enough dice to attack with without CP (for example, you are using a reach weapon with a +2 martial maneuver and a specialty for at least 9 dice and a TN of 2 or 3), then you might not need so much CP for a nearly certain hit. Once the other guys have to roll 6s it's basically all over for them. So you put in another three or four dice of CP, and unless you are fighting a prime enemy, you are dealing with about 8-10 dice (CP boosted to max ranks of skill) for the defence against a higher TN. With a good weapon, i.e. 10+ S or D base damage, that's a near certain kill or maim on the first strike.
(I had a Magic Adept Troll who would go invisible and then hit people with a dicoted poleaxe for 14D on a single hit - never mind that he had 3 reach and everybody defending hat +4 TN due to vision mods against an invisible attacker. . So far the theory, I don't think I ever took that poleaxe anywhere. But even the telescopic staff was good enough).



While you should be making sure that you are only fighting mooks when getting into a situation like that, I agree.

Now one thing I have to say: Melee in SR3 was really, really viable compared to now. I remember fights where people were constantly missing their firearm attacks because all sides were behind cover (a minimum of 6-8 TN), and then one of the runners would break out the katana and go on a frickin home run. Sure it was risky, but it was really good fun.

A particular scene I remember is when a group of runners were holed up on the upper floor of a warehouse building in a harbour, and we were doing the all-out merc attack scene from Black Lagoon, where basically every merc in town goes after that one group. There were enemies in the building, some coming up the outside stairs, a troll mini-gunner on the opposite roof, and about four cars outside with 8 remaining goons peppering the windows. (Maybe 3-4 primes, the rest were grunts of varying capabilities.) After the minigun had basically taken out the entire upper floor wall, our troggy machinegunned the other troll, and then there was lots of missing on all sides, until my human alrounder sammy leaped out of the window onto one of the cars and whipped the heads off two of the mercs with his katana, exposing himself completely to enemy fire, but somehow surviving it. And then he was behind the cover, dropped the sword and could gun down the rest of the mercs. (And the other chicken-shit runners dared come after him, which was the important part.) Good times .

It was great the way TN mods could force you to do things like that in SR3, whereas I'm not sure I would risk it in 4th.

Nods, SR3 was way more pink mohawk/cinematic compared to SR4 in my eyes . .

I agree 100%.

Those tactics sound really awesome. I tend to either have very conservative players, who always use cover and make for long, 'safe' firefights, or absolute crazies who run in first and eventually get mowed down. That ability to go from one mode to another would be a good thing for them, I think.

Well, that guy was MADE to do reckless things. We played without overdamage (D+ or D*) rules, and basically he could take a 500lb bomb to the chest, via the then RAW, and survive. (Not that I advocate not using fiat at that point, but...) It was one of the funnest characters I ever made, because there was no engagement distance where he didn't work (except vs snipers), and he could also throw a mean punch or kick, too. I wouldn't even say he was overpowered - very optimised, but without overspecialising, so he didn't overshadow people in their fields. But he could rock out all combat sitations without being totally out of place in society, like most troggy sams or heavy cyber sams ended up being.
Unfortunately it's almost impossible to do quite the same in SR4 - it's just the million nY that's missing at chargen.

Which I see as an Absolutely good thing, and was the point I was making above (somewhere)... The scenarios you get in SR4 are not nearly as crazy in effect.

Each to his own...

Indeed...