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Max Skill Rating Question

Ghost_in_the_Sys... Ghost_in_the_System View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 01:25 AM Post #26
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932	Dodge is still useful if you don't have a melee combat skill, as you can't use gymnastic dodge in melee. Also, I wouldn't try messing with the player too much for taking amnesia, as it really is a good solution for the player not knowing anything about the setting. And don't get specs with BP, use karma, much more efficient.

Fortinbras View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 01:36 AM Post #27
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589	QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 05:57 PM) 4. If a player is just a hammer, he'll feel frustrated and useless unless your entire campaign is made of nails. True, but letting him figure that out on his own will impart the lesson faster than just telling him.

Dez384 View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:36 AM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 3-May 11 Member No.: 29,372	QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 8 2011, 09:25 PM) Dodge is still useful if you don't have a melee combat skill, as you can't use gymnastic dodge in melee. I believe that you are mistaken. QUOTE (SR4A pg 160) Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

Ghost_in_the_Sys... Ghost_in_the_System View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:39 AM Post #29
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932	Oh, used to be ranged only in SR4, didn't realize they'd changed it. Edit: That does make dodge fairly useless beyond the +2 bonus for a specialization, though I'm sure you could argue you could do even better via gymnastics by having a specialization on dodging. Wild.

Udoshi View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 03:13 AM Post #30
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566	QUOTE (Dez384 @ Jun 8 2011, 08:36 PM) I believe that you are mistaken. Yeah, exactly that. There's a difference between Full Defense and what I call passive defense - your natural dice pools to defending against attacks. In Melee, you Roll Reaction + Unarmed (Block) +Weapon Skill (Parry) +Dodge (dodge) In Ranged, you roll Reaction. Just reaction. thats why guns are so deadly. You don't get a skill to it - you need full defense instead. For Full Defense(Taking an action to do so), you can either Gymnastics Dodge (add Gymnastics) Full Dodge (add Dodge, sometimes again) or Full Parry (changes defense to Reaction + 2x Unarmed or Weapon Skill) You have Unarmed, Dodge and Gymnastics. This is a less than ideal waste of points. At least for Personal Defense. per the Common Rolls for Riggers table, Full Defense in a drone can add Dodge, or there's Evasive Driving in the normal rules, which lets you add Vehicle Skill, but doesn't work against ramming attacks. Vehicle melee defense, apparently, uses melee skill. Basically, what I am getting at is this. 1) Think about what you roll to defend yourself in melee 2) think about what you roll to defend yourself at range 3) think about how you can best use specializations to maximise both pools. For your character, its like this. Unarmed (martial arts +2, per arsenals specializing-in-MA rules) Gymnastics (Gym dodge +2, per the faq, which allows specs not explicitly listed in the books) In melee, you Block then Full Gymdodge if you need to. At ranged, you just gymdodge. if your car or sweet ride gets shot, then you use Evasive Driving. use the points freed up to buy Perception. Everyone needs it.

Ghost_in_the_Sys... Ghost_in_the_System View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 03:19 AM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932	Ah, right, forgot about the doubling. See, I knew there was a reason you needed dodge/melee combat skill to defend properly in melee combat. No changes, just been too long since I've been in melee combat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Glyph View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 03:50 AM Post #32
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449	QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jun 8 2011, 05:36 PM) True, but letting him figure that out on his own will impart the lesson faster than just telling him. I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him. Sure, the guy wants to be an archer, but there are all of those other elven stereotypes out there, plenty of material to make a character more rounded than just a bow skill. I mean, if you're going to give him an amnesiac with a lifespan likely to be short, then make it a hell of a wild ride. Here's an amnesiac elven archer I whipped up - he rolls plenty for bows, but he also has decent abilities in other areas. [ Spoiler ] Elven Archer BREAKDOWN (400 Points) Core Attributes: 180 Special Attributes: 10 Race (Night One): 35 Active Skills: 130 Qualities: <5> Contacts: 0 Resources: 50 =Attributes= Body: 5(6) Agility: 5(10) Reaction: 4(9) Strength: 3(8 ) Charisma: 4 Intuition: 3 Logic: 2 Willpower: 3 Edge: 2 Essence: 0.75 Initiative: 12 Initiative Passes: 3 Physical Damage Track: 11 Stun Track: 10 Current Karma: 0 Total Karma: 0 Street Cred: 0 Noteriety: 0 Public Awareness: 0 =Qualities= Erased (Slow) Guts Martial Arts/Krav Maga (x 1): Ready Weapon is a Free Action Restricted Gear (x 3) ------------------------- Amnesia (Full) Mysterious Implant > Permanent Infusion: Sideways > with a Moderate Addiction to Slab =Active Skills= Archery/Bows: 6(7)/+2 Athletics Skill Group: 3 Etiquette/Street: 4/+2 Infiltration: 4 Perception/Visual: 3/+2 Pilot Ground Craft/Bike: 3/+2 Unarmed Combat: 3 =Knowledge Skills= Languages> English: N Sperethiel: 4 Other> Bike Racing: 4 Bow Design: 3 Guerrilla Combat Tactics: 4 =Cyberware= Cybereyes III with: >Eye Light >Flare Compensation >Low-Light Vision >Smartlink >Vision Enhancement: 2 >Vision Magnification Reaction Enhancers: 2 Ultrasound Sensor Wired Reflexes: 2 [Alphaware] =Bioware= Muscle Augmentation: 4 Muscle Toner: 4 Reflex Recorder >Archery Suprathyroid Gland Synthcardium: 3 =Transgenics= Sideways (permanent infusion - see above) Remaining Nuyen/Gear on Person: up to 6,500 Nuyen worth of stuff. Designer Notes: I picked Slab as his addiction with the notion that he is so hyper and overclocked that he literally needs to knock himself sometimes to stave off burning out completely. The stuff he begins play with could include a medical bottle with some pills of Slab in it, maybe even with a bogus prescription label on it.

Badmoodguy88 View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 11:01 AM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 347 Joined: 28-June 10 Member No.: 18,765	I thought night ones were kind of sub par attributes wise. 35BP plus a bunch of negative qualities and no more spectacular than a normal elf. You could use a standard elf and SURGE to give him striking skin pigmentation (midnight black), striking hair (white), Extravagant Eyes (red or purple) for a total of 15 points of negative qualities. Metagenetic Improvement (agility)Cost: 20 BP Just a fluffy choice. Balance Receptor Cost: 5 BP Keen-Eared Cost: 5 BP Something like Electrosense Cost: 10 BP would be more fun for an amnesiac to slowly discover.

Dakka Dakka View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 01:10 PM Post #34
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582	QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 9 2011, 12:47 AM) And actually as I recall grenades suck quite alot, and sure, explosive rounds exist. Is there a point? They have been nerfed by the FAQ and SR4A. If you ignore the stupid FAQ it is not that bad. IF your GM wants to use the FAQ's nonsense, just take some Flaw like Compulsion: Throw grenades at floor not people. QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 9 2011, 05:13 AM) In melee, you Block then Full Gymdodge if you need to. At ranged, you just gymdodge. Well only if your Gymdodge is higher than your melee skill, otherwise you would full block/parry QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 9 2011, 05:13 AM) if your car or sweet ride gets shot, then you use Evasive Driving. What do you mean by Evasive Driving? Can you actually use your vehicle skill to evade attacks?

Fortinbras View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 01:23 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589	QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2011, 10:50 PM) I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him. True. I was under the impression the player came up with the character and the GM made it for him. If it's the kid's first time playing Shadowrun then I might offer up advice on a character that fits the scene better, but if the cat is insistent... QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Jun 9 2011, 06:01 AM) I thought night ones were kind of sub par attributes wise. It's an "I want to play drow." tax.

Tymeaus Jalynsfe... Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 01:23 PM Post #36
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022	QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 07:10 AM) What do you mean by Evasive Driving? Can you actually use your vehicle skill to evade attacks? Yes, if you are driving...

Dakka Dakka View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:04 PM Post #37
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582	Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well. What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense?

Tymeaus Jalynsfe... Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:06 PM Post #38
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022	QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 08:04 AM) Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well. What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense? The attacker breaks his hand? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dakka Dakka View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:09 PM Post #39
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582	QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2011, 04:06 PM) The attacker breaks his hand? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Actually I was thinking about the infamous troll with the dikoted Nodachi or a vehicle with a mechanical arm or two.

Tymeaus Jalynsfe... Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 02:14 PM Post #40
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022	QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 08:09 AM) Actually I was thinking about the infamous troll with the dikoted Nodachi or a vehicle with a mechanical arm or two. Ah Yes... I think that You still get to try and React, so you would get a base roll. No need to take the Full Defense Action. Shrug Besides, Dikote is obsolete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Archunter View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 05:42 PM Post #41
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 18-May 08 From: Thousand Islands, ON Member No.: 15,987	QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2011, 10:50 PM) I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him. Sure, the guy wants to be an archer, but there are all of those other elven stereotypes out there, plenty of material to make a character more rounded than just a bow skill. I mean, if you're going to give him an amnesiac with a lifespan likely to be short, then make it a hell of a wild ride. Here's an amnesiac elven archer I whipped up - he rolls plenty for bows, but he also has decent abilities in other areas. [ Spoiler ] Elven Archer BREAKDOWN (400 Points) Core Attributes: 180 Special Attributes: 10 Race (Night One): 35 Active Skills: 130 Qualities: <5> Contacts: 0 Resources: 50 =Attributes= Body: 5(6) Agility: 5(10) Reaction: 4(9) Strength: 3(8 ) Charisma: 4 Intuition: 3 Logic: 2 Willpower: 3 Edge: 2 Essence: 0.75 Initiative: 12 Initiative Passes: 3 Physical Damage Track: 11 Stun Track: 10 Current Karma: 0 Total Karma: 0 Street Cred: 0 Noteriety: 0 Public Awareness: 0 =Qualities= Erased (Slow) Guts Martial Arts/Krav Maga (x 1): Ready Weapon is a Free Action Restricted Gear (x 3) ------------------------- Amnesia (Full) Mysterious Implant > Permanent Infusion: Sideways > with a Moderate Addiction to Slab =Active Skills= Archery/Bows: 6(7)/+2 Athletics Skill Group: 3 Etiquette/Street: 4/+2 Infiltration: 4 Perception/Visual: 3/+2 Pilot Ground Craft/Bike: 3/+2 Unarmed Combat: 3 =Knowledge Skills= Languages> English: N Sperethiel: 4 Other> Bike Racing: 4 Bow Design: 3 Guerrilla Combat Tactics: 4 =Cyberware= Cybereyes III with: >Eye Light >Flare Compensation >Low-Light Vision >Smartlink >Vision Enhancement: 2 >Vision Magnification Reaction Enhancers: 2 Ultrasound Sensor Wired Reflexes: 2 [Alphaware] =Bioware= Muscle Augmentation: 4 Muscle Toner: 4 Reflex Recorder >Archery Suprathyroid Gland Synthcardium: 3 =Transgenics= Sideways (permanent infusion - see above) Remaining Nuyen/Gear on Person: up to 6,500 Nuyen worth of stuff. Designer Notes: I picked Slab as his addiction with the notion that he is so hyper and overclocked that he literally needs to knock himself sometimes to stave off burning out completely. The stuff he begins play with could include a medical bottle with some pills of Slab in it, maybe even with a bogus prescription label on it. That is a more interesting build and one I will pass along to the player, thanks Glyph. QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jun 9 2011, 08:23 AM) True. I was under the impression the player came up with the character and the GM made it for him. If it's the kid's first time playing Shadowrun then I might offer up advice on a character that fits the scene better, but if the cat is insistent... This is the case for the most part. The player, I hate to say, is rather straight edge and is hard to get inspired. The majority of his characters as far as I can tell are generally cut and paste and as a player he loses interest quickly between turns. His biggest concern when it came to playing Shadowrun was his "bum luck" with dice rolls. During character creation I'd asked him what he wanted his skills to be and it boiled down to archery, unarmed combat, a skill so he could drive, and athletics. Those skills plus the mind wipe and ghost of a data trail were all he really wanted for the Night One he chose to play. I went along with that concept and came up with the sheet on the previous page.

Ghost_in_the_Sys... Ghost_in_the_System View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 06:15 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 12-May 11 Member No.: 29,932	Luckily SR is a bit more resilient to 'bum luck' than many other game systems. While laws of averages can take entire campaigns to work themselves out in d20 type games due to the low number of dice being rolled, SR games pull in laws of averages fairly quickly because you could be rolling 30+ dice per IP. It also helps that the range is only 6 instead of 20, so you average out in about 1/4th the number of die rolls.

Udoshi View Member Profile	Jun 9 2011, 10:05 PM Post #43
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566	QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 07:04 AM) Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well. What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense? 1) You can use both, depending on wether you want to use dodge or evasive driving. 2) per the Common Rolls For Rigger table, melee defense is Response(or command)+melee skill. You may ALSO evasive drive vs melee attacks, just not against Ramming explicitly.

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