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Archunter
Hoi Chummers

This is my first real post after lurking for a few years. I've finally managed to gather a group of P&P gamers to play SR4. A few players have experience in the group, but one of my players hasn't got a clue what SR is about and asked me to spruce up his character, a Night One who's focus is Archery. To compensate for the player's lack of knowledge of SR he opted to take the Amnesia and Erased qualities for ease of getting in the game. As the GM I decided to give him the most bang for his buck since he wants to have fun despite his fears of crap dice rolls so with a bit of Borrowed Time and a lot of Bioware (Unknown to the Player) I've made him an Ace Archer.

But this is where my problem arises within the rules of the game, technically his Skill Rating in Archery is 7(8) with augmentation, and I'm wondering if that is legal.

Under standard character creation rules I've went and purchased the following to get the skill where it is...
Aptitude (Archery) to boost his Active Combat Skill Archery to 7 at the 32 BP cost and then with the bioware Reflex Recorder (Archery) pumped it up to 8.

Does it work like that?

HunterHerne
As far as I can tell, this is legal, but it cannot be advanced further, without nullifying the reflex recorder.
squee_nabob
Reflex Recorder states:

QUOTE
The reflex recorder adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group (Combat and Physical skills only).


I don’t see why it doesn’t work like that. AFAIK you are doing it correctly
Makki
QUOTE (Archunter @ Jun 8 2011, 12:32 PM) *
Under standard character creation rules I've went and purchased the following to get the skill where it is...
Aptitude (Archery) to boost his Active Combat Skill Archery to 7 at the 32 BP cost and then with the bioware Reflex Recorder (Archery) pumped it up to 8.

Does it work like that?

Yes, that's right, although really, really expensive. Aptitude costs 10 BP and Skill 7 costs 8 BP, that's 18 BP for one die. Think about, what you can do with 18 BP. that's a rank 4 in a new skill, which means now defaulting and therefore 5 (!!!) more dice here.
Archunter
Cool, but I'm wondering if it's too much of a boost now. The character will be using a bow, with the specialization as well as the benefits of the Enhanced Articulation and Muscle Toner (rating 2) biowares so his Archey dice roll will look like this...

Agility 7(9) + Archery 7(8) +2 Bow Specialization +1 Enhanced Articulation for a total of 20d6

That's nuts, right? But on the other hand the characters is a ticking time bomb and the player himself has stated he may drop from the group out of lack of interest.

Here's the rough character sheet for those who would like to comment, any tips or advice is most appreciated.

Metatype: Elf, Metavarient: Night One

ATTRIBUTES
BOD: 3
AGI: 7(9)
REA: 5(7)
STR: 4
CHA: 3
INT: 2
LOG: 1
WIL: 2
Edge: 3

Essence: 4.2
Initiative: 7(9)

ACTIVE SKILLS
[AGI]Archery (Bows +2) 7(8)
Athletics Skill Group 4
-[STR]Climbing 4
-[AGI]Gymnastics 4
-[STR]Running 4
-[STR]Swimming 4
[REA]Dodge 3
[REA]Pilot Ground Craft 3
[AGI]Unarmed Combat 4

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS
[INT]Fletchery 4
[INT]Archery 5

LANGUAGE SKILLS
Sperethiel N
English N

QUALITIES
Aptitude (Archery)
Amnesia
Bilingual
Borrowed Time
Erased
Lightning Reflexes
Restricted Gear
Will To Live

Gear & Lifestyle
AR Gloves
Armoured Vest (B/I 2/2)
Street Clothing
Low Lifestyle (3 Months)

Augmentations
Cybereyes (Rating 1, w/ Vision Magnification)
Enhanced Articulation (+1d6 to Physical Related Tests)
Muscle Toner (Rating 2)
Orthoskin (Rating 2, B/I 2/2)
Platelet Factories (Damage of 2< Reduce by 1 point)
Reflex Recorder (Archery)

MATRIX GEAR
Renraku Sensei (w/ Renraku Ichi OS)

WEAPONS
Composite Bow (Rating 4, 6 DMG)

CONTACTS
Socialite (Connection 4/Loyalty 4)

NOTES
Night One Ability: Low-light Vision, Mild Alergy Sunlight, Keen Eared, Nocturnal, Unsual Hair (Fur)
Makki
Enhanced Articulation (+1d6 to Physical Related Tests):
Combat test are not Physical related test, they are combat test.

additionally:
Drop Agi to 6(cool.gif as the last point is too expensive with the 25BP cost. Together with the suggested drop of Aptitude you can free up 43 BP. Invest 40 of these into your mental stats ( Int 4, Log 2, Will 3)

get Muscle Augmentation for +2 Str and a Rating 6 Bow
Dez384
QUOTE (Makki @ Jun 8 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Enhanced Articulation (+1d6 to Physical Related Tests):
Combat test are not Physical related test, they are combat test.

additionally:
Drop Agi to 6(cool.gif as the last point is too expensive with the 25BP cost. Together with the suggested drop of Aptitude you can free up 43 BP. Invest 40 of these into your mental stats ( Int 4, Log 2, Will 3)

get Muscle Augmentation for +2 Str and a Rating 6 Bow



Dropping two dice from ditching aptitude and max agility can be regained by attaching a smartlink to the bow.
Ghost_in_the_System
Eww, lightning reflexes? Drop that and give the character wired reflexes.

Also, don't saddle the character with borrowed time. Throw on biosystem overstress and some other qualities instead. You don't want to force your own hand to kill off the character if the player enjoys themselves.

And as Makki said, enhanced articulation only affects skills in the Physical skill group which are linked to physical attributes, so that drops 1 die.

You can also get 25 BP back out of the character (and lower the DP by 1) by not hard maxing the agility. Put that back into perception.

Oh, and as to your original question, yes, it effectively gives you an 8 skill because skills, like attributes, can go above their normal maximum through augmentation.
yesferatu
I hate to be the turd in the punchbowl on this...but why would you want to be saddled with archery?
I can see it being neat for fluff, but it's such a huge handicap.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
Like melee combat, archery is limited to one attack per initiative pass.
Archery does not have a semi or full auto mode, no additional armor piercing, limited ammunition choices, a strength threshold, a two-hand and proximity requirement, limited range, plus reloading them requires a "ready weapon" action. "A character may ready a weapon by spending a Simple Action. P147"

Guns are so simple, if not too simple, to use.
I don't know if I'd handicap a new player with such a mediocre weapon and so many rules to use it.
It seems like he's spending a ton of build points on a bad idea.

It's the 2070s, maybe it's time to put the stone-age weapons down.
KarmaInferno
It is a lot of dice, but he's not shooting the bow, what else is he good for?

Shadowrun is a game where many jobs require as little combat as possible. The player should be aware that spending three quarters of play sessions doing nothing isn't actually all that fun.





-k
Ghost_in_the_System
Actually archery can be quite good, and there are quite a few arrowhead options. Bows can only be fired once an IP due to needing a simple action to reload and another simple to fire (Though I think there is an adept power that could change that to free for the reloading), but that can be offset by the fact that they can be the single highest damage dealing weapon in the game. The above character should get muscle enhancement to raise strength up to 6, which would allow use of a rating 6 bow which does 8P damage (And that isn't even particularly high for archery characters).

The bow is also perfectly silent and comes in a collapsible option for more stealth at the cost of 1 damage.

Stone age weapons are surprisingly effective in the future.
yesferatu
"single highest damage dealing"
It's still a single shot /single target weapon.
An average runner with a average skills can take on more targets more easily with an average gun.
Plus, they have access to more BPs for a greater variety of weaponry, attributes and skills.

Run a couple combat simulations.
Pit this guy against an all 3's NPC and see how it turns out.

Plus, in order to make it effective, you need to dump 50 build points on it.
It just seems like a really restrictive waste of build points.
James McMurray
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 02:00 PM) *
It just seems like a really restrictive waste of build points.


But if it's fun, who cares?
Ghost_in_the_System
Okay, sure, no problem.
Assuming they are in mutual range of each other, both are prepared for combat, and not bothering with things like cover and such, and no surprise. All rolls done on IC but not posted. Also assuming grabbing muscle enhancement because there isn't much reason not to.

Night's init: 9 + 5
NPC's init:6 + 2

Night goes first. Weapon already loaded, fires at NPC:
Bow attack: 9 hits.
NPC uses full defense to dodge: 1 hit
Bow hits with explosive head: 9P + 8 net hits = 17P damage
Damage soaked with 3 body and 6 armor: 3 hits, 14P damage taken. NPC is dead.

Well, that was quick and easy.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 8 2011, 01:11 PM) *
Okay, sure, no problem.
Assuming they are in mutual range of each other, both are prepared for combat, and not bothering with things like cover and such, and no surprise. All rolls done on IC but not posted. Also assuming grabbing muscle enhancement because there isn't much reason not to.

Night's init: 9 + 5
NPC's init:6 + 2

Night goes first. Weapon already loaded, fires at NPC:
Bow attack: 9 hits.
NPC uses full defense to dodge: 1 hit
Bow hits with explosive head: 9P + 8 net hits = 17P damage
Damage soaked with 3 body and 6 armor: 3 hits, 14P damage taken. NPC is dead.

Well, that was quick and easy.


NPC 2 and 3 now act, and the Archer is likely dead as well... smile.gif
Ghost_in_the_System
He said an all 3's NPC, not 3 NPCs. I could do that too, but I'd need to know weapons. If they've both got assault rifles then yeah, reasonable chance they'll fire, Night will squeak by alive, kill another NPC, then get killed by the third NPC unless he gets wired reflexes, in which case he'd likely be seriously injured but kill all three NPCs.

Of course that has more to do with the power of assault weapons even in unskilled hands than anything else.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 8 2011, 02:11 PM) *
He said an all 3's NPC, not 3 NPCs. I could do that too, but I'd need to know weapons. If they've both got assault rifles then yeah, reasonable chance they'll fire, Night will squeak by alive, kill another NPC, then get killed by the third NPC unless he gets wired reflexes, in which case he'd likely be seriously injured but kill all three NPCs.

Of course that has more to do with the power of assault weapons even in unskilled hands than anything else.


Heh... Good Point. smile.gif
yesferatu
I'll admit a 1 on 1 with an average Joe NPC might be a *little* stacked in Night's favor..
I'm not saying Night isn't a badass, but I am saying it would be much easier, especially for a new player, to use any of a dozen guns.
Maybe run him against a few of the sample characters and see how it goes.

***I'm also ignoring the other elephant in the room which would be the explosive arrows.***
A character with 1 grenade and no skill can do almost the same thing.
Explosive rounds exist too.
What would happen if Night weren't using explosive arrows?

***In your combat, without explosive arrows, the NPC would have taken what...5 stun?***

Give somebody with 9 Agility a bow see what happens...
Give somebody with a 9 Agility a gun and see what happens...

Am I seriously the only person who'd rather bring a gun to a bow fight?
Makki
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 05:56 PM) *
Am I seriously the only person who'd rather bring a gun to a bow fight?

Unless it's a Ki-Ad Troll Archer, you're right.
Fortinbras
I think if the player wants to be an archer, that should trump everything else. Though I get the sense that he may have played a lot of D&D and thought 'drow archer' right off the bat.

My concern would be the Night One part. If it's this cat's first foray into shadowrun, you may not want to saddle him with such a rare specimen of metahumanity. It's just a little too much 'different' to saddle a new player with right out of the gate. He may have picked the race with the thought that drow are cool without knowing that they are about as rare as a honest politician.

Recommend the kid try out a regular elf first and see if that's good fit. Once he has the feel of the universe, then give him the option of becoming a rarity in it.
James McMurray
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 04:56 PM) *
Am I seriously the only person who'd rather bring a gun to a bow fight?


Of course not. But there's a huge difference between numerically subpar and unusable. If someone wants to play an archer, it can easily work in the game. If you want to give advice, what about "X makes for a better archer"?
Ghost_in_the_System
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 04:56 PM) *
***I'm also ignoring the other elephant in the room which would be the explosive arrows.***
A character with 1 grenade and no skill can do almost the same thing.
Explosive rounds exist too.
What would happen if Night weren't using explosive arrows?

***In your combat, without explosive arrows, the NPC would have taken what...5 stun?***

We can remove that elephant, I did it just to show what can be done for a few extra nuyen per shot. If you remove the explosive arrows in the example then the NPC would have taken 13P instead of 14P and still been dead.

And actually as I recall grenades suck quite alot, and sure, explosive rounds exist. Is there a point?
yesferatu
Points:
1. Guy wants to use a bow, let him use a bow.
2. Spending that many build points on that much specialization is overkill and detracts from doing anything else.
3. Guns are much easier to use, abundant, and don't require nearly as many build points in specialization.
4. If a player is just a hammer, he'll feel frustrated and useless unless your entire campaign is made of nails.

Ghost_in_the_System
He certainly could use infiltration which could be paid for along with perception by taking agility off a hard max.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 8 2011, 05:02 PM) *
He certainly could use infiltration which could be paid for along with perception by taking agility off a hard max.


Agreeed on hardmaxing. Its just so bad. Those 25 bp are so much better to use elsewhere.

You can even get the same performance with ware. Take Restricted Gear: Muscle toner. Bump that toner up to rating 4. Boosh. 4 agility for 11 BP in total. Get a level of martial arts. Any. Doesn't matter. Take the Iajutsu Maneuver. This will let your archer fire twice in one turn with a skill test to Quickdraw his arrows. One he'll likely pass with that massive agility. Plus, its hella cool. Thats 7 more points. (i'm leaning towards Ninjutsu. Nobody takes it. Nobody will expect it. This is perfect.)

Use the leftover on Infiltration - anything to make use of that high agility, and thus, useful to his team - probably shadowing or palming.


Nitpick: You don't want both Gymnastics and Dodge. For personal defense, just use Gymnastics. Shave those points, use it elsewhere.
Dodge is only useful if you plan on rigger-fighting too.

This guy NEEDS at least two initiative passes if he's going to be any decent. Drop lightning reflexes(its BAD), give him a Synaptic Booster 1. (maybe 2).
Will to live is terrible. Get rid of it. Take something else. Anything else. Like that martial arts i mentioned. No really, its bad. Overflow only helps if your're on the ground, unconscious and bleeding out, and won't even save you from that.

Get that bow to rating 6, use some Muscle Augmentation. Smartlink the bow. Add specs to all the skills you can, if you have extra bp for it.


that being said, taking amnesia is basically GIVING your GM an opportunity to mess with you. I'd take make use if it, but try not to railroad it.
Look at the Judas quality(RC), or possibly deep cover. It goes hand in hand with amnesia - the blank state is a good cover identity. Later, the character might not so much remember who he is as snap back to who he was. Whether or not he's on his new teams side, though...
Don't be afraid to break the rules slightly when designing the character.
I'm amused at this character having a Superthyroid Gland, being hungry all the time, and NOT knowing why.
Ghost_in_the_System
Dodge is still useful if you don't have a melee combat skill, as you can't use gymnastic dodge in melee.

Also, I wouldn't try messing with the player too much for taking amnesia, as it really is a good solution for the player not knowing anything about the setting.

And don't get specs with BP, use karma, much more efficient.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 8 2011, 05:57 PM) *
4. If a player is just a hammer, he'll feel frustrated and useless unless your entire campaign is made of nails.

True, but letting him figure that out on his own will impart the lesson faster than just telling him.
Dez384
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 8 2011, 09:25 PM) *
Dodge is still useful if you don't have a melee combat skill, as you can't use gymnastic dodge in melee.


I believe that you are mistaken.

QUOTE (SR4A pg 160)
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.
Ghost_in_the_System
Oh, used to be ranged only in SR4, didn't realize they'd changed it.

Edit: That does make dodge fairly useless beyond the +2 bonus for a specialization, though I'm sure you could argue you could do even better via gymnastics by having a specialization on dodging. Wild.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Dez384 @ Jun 8 2011, 08:36 PM) *
I believe that you are mistaken.


Yeah, exactly that. There's a difference between Full Defense and what I call passive defense
- your natural dice pools to defending against attacks.

In Melee, you Roll Reaction
+ Unarmed (Block)
+Weapon Skill (Parry)
+Dodge (dodge)

In Ranged, you roll Reaction.
Just reaction. thats why guns are so deadly. You don't get a skill to it - you need full defense instead.

For Full Defense(Taking an action to do so), you can either
Gymnastics Dodge (add Gymnastics)
Full Dodge (add Dodge, sometimes again)
or Full Parry (changes defense to Reaction + 2x Unarmed or Weapon Skill)

You have Unarmed, Dodge and Gymnastics. This is a less than ideal waste of points. At least for Personal Defense.

per the Common Rolls for Riggers table, Full Defense in a drone can add Dodge, or there's Evasive Driving in the normal rules, which lets you add Vehicle Skill, but doesn't work against ramming attacks. Vehicle melee defense, apparently, uses melee skill.

Basically, what I am getting at is this.
1) Think about what you roll to defend yourself in melee
2) think about what you roll to defend yourself at range
3) think about how you can best use specializations to maximise both pools.

For your character, its like this.
Unarmed (martial arts +2, per arsenals specializing-in-MA rules)
Gymnastics (Gym dodge +2, per the faq, which allows specs not explicitly listed in the books)

In melee, you Block then Full Gymdodge if you need to.
At ranged, you just gymdodge.
if your car or sweet ride gets shot, then you use Evasive Driving.

use the points freed up to buy Perception. Everyone needs it.
Ghost_in_the_System
Ah, right, forgot about the doubling. See, I knew there was a reason you needed dodge/melee combat skill to defend properly in melee combat. No changes, just been too long since I've been in melee combat smile.gif
Glyph
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jun 8 2011, 05:36 PM) *
True, but letting him figure that out on his own will impart the lesson faster than just telling him.

I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him. Sure, the guy wants to be an archer, but there are all of those other elven stereotypes out there, plenty of material to make a character more rounded than just a bow skill.

I mean, if you're going to give him an amnesiac with a lifespan likely to be short, then make it a hell of a wild ride. Here's an amnesiac elven archer I whipped up - he rolls plenty for bows, but he also has decent abilities in other areas.

[ Spoiler ]
Badmoodguy88
I thought night ones were kind of sub par attributes wise. 35BP plus a bunch of negative qualities and no more spectacular than a normal elf. You could use a standard elf and SURGE to give him striking skin pigmentation (midnight black), striking hair (white), Extravagant Eyes (red or purple) for a total of 15 points of negative qualities.

Metagenetic Improvement (agility)Cost: 20 BP

Just a fluffy choice.
Balance Receptor Cost: 5 BP
Keen-Eared Cost: 5 BP

Something like Electrosense Cost: 10 BP would be more fun for an amnesiac to slowly discover.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 9 2011, 12:47 AM) *
And actually as I recall grenades suck quite alot, and sure, explosive rounds exist. Is there a point?
They have been nerfed by the FAQ and SR4A. If you ignore the stupid FAQ it is not that bad. IF your GM wants to use the FAQ's nonsense, just take some Flaw like Compulsion: Throw grenades at floor not people.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 9 2011, 05:13 AM) *
In melee, you Block then Full Gymdodge if you need to.
At ranged, you just gymdodge.
Well only if your Gymdodge is higher than your melee skill, otherwise you would full block/parry
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 9 2011, 05:13 AM) *
if your car or sweet ride gets shot, then you use Evasive Driving.
What do you mean by Evasive Driving? Can you actually use your vehicle skill to evade attacks?
Fortinbras
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2011, 10:50 PM) *
I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him.

True. I was under the impression the player came up with the character and the GM made it for him. If it's the kid's first time playing Shadowrun then I might offer up advice on a character that fits the scene better, but if the cat is insistent...

QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Jun 9 2011, 06:01 AM) *
I thought night ones were kind of sub par attributes wise.

It's an "I want to play drow." tax.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 07:10 AM) *
What do you mean by Evasive Driving? Can you actually use your vehicle skill to evade attacks?


Yes, if you are driving...
Dakka Dakka
Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well.

What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 08:04 AM) *
Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well.

What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense?


The attacker breaks his hand? smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2011, 04:06 PM) *
The attacker breaks his hand? smile.gif
Actually I was thinking about the infamous troll with the dikoted Nodachi or a vehicle with a mechanical arm or two.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 08:09 AM) *
Actually I was thinking about the infamous troll with the dikoted Nodachi or a vehicle with a mechanical arm or two.


Ah Yes... I think that You still get to try and React, so you would get a base roll. No need to take the Full Defense Action. *Shrug*
Besides, Dikote is obsolete. smile.gif
Archunter
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2011, 10:50 PM) *
I would agree if it were the player's own character, but this is a character the GM is making for him. Sure, the guy wants to be an archer, but there are all of those other elven stereotypes out there, plenty of material to make a character more rounded than just a bow skill.

I mean, if you're going to give him an amnesiac with a lifespan likely to be short, then make it a hell of a wild ride. Here's an amnesiac elven archer I whipped up - he rolls plenty for bows, but he also has decent abilities in other areas.

[ Spoiler ]


That is a more interesting build and one I will pass along to the player, thanks Glyph.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jun 9 2011, 08:23 AM) *
True. I was under the impression the player came up with the character and the GM made it for him. If it's the kid's first time playing Shadowrun then I might offer up advice on a character that fits the scene better, but if the cat is insistent...


This is the case for the most part. The player, I hate to say, is rather straight edge and is hard to get inspired. The majority of his characters as far as I can tell are generally cut and paste and as a player he loses interest quickly between turns. His biggest concern when it came to playing Shadowrun was his "bum luck" with dice rolls. During character creation I'd asked him what he wanted his skills to be and it boiled down to archery, unarmed combat, a skill so he could drive, and athletics. Those skills plus the mind wipe and ghost of a data trail were all he really wanted for the Night One he chose to play. I went along with that concept and came up with the sheet on the previous page.
Ghost_in_the_System
Luckily SR is a bit more resilient to 'bum luck' than many other game systems. While laws of averages can take entire campaigns to work themselves out in d20 type games due to the low number of dice being rolled, SR games pull in laws of averages fairly quickly because you could be rolling 30+ dice per IP. It also helps that the range is only 6 instead of 20, so you average out in about 1/4th the number of die rolls.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 9 2011, 07:04 AM) *
Ah found it, I thought you used dodge as well.

What happens if a vehicle is attacked in melee and the defender does not want to go on full defense?


1) You can use both, depending on wether you want to use dodge or evasive driving.

2) per the Common Rolls For Rigger table, melee defense is Response(or command)+melee skill. You may ALSO evasive drive vs melee attacks, just not against Ramming explicitly.
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