As far as I'm concerned, if you want your character to have in his possession the only working prototype of the never mass produced Ares Injection Tonfa (for use in detainment facilities), go for it. It's not my table. But it's the kind of item that, if I run across it in a book or story, causes me to put down the papers and move on to the next one.

Sometimes a writer makes something they love outshine everything else like it. In Shadowrun Krav Maga makes me not even want to use Martial Arts. If your auto injecting tonfa was balanced with everything else (works like a Stun Baton that delivers injection darts instead of electricity), I'd wholeheartedly cheer for it. That sounds like something good to add. Heck, it sounds great. But once it gets the bonus to parrying, the ability to swap ammo using the smartlink (encouraging self injection before combat), up to twice as much ammo as the Stun Baton, and some bonus to attack because people "aren't likely to defend effectively", it loses all the attraction for me.

Bah, coddle the inmates why don't you! Sounds like a Horizon thing to do.

No, Ares would have an even more powerful Tazer Baton for ensuring that there's no troubles whatsoever in their Rehabilitation and Retraining Work Camps, commonly and more accurately called "Gulags" on the street. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ah, good old Tazer Batons. I miss those. So much nicer than when they started "misinserting" cranial bombs and calling them "penile implants".

AFAIK, Tonfa are an exotic weapon, and balancing it with stats similar to the stun baton sounds like a solid concept. Parrying bonus would be a +1, paid for by requiring the exotic proficiency. Smartlink system was mostly intended due to character's medic capacity (some biotech sg and chemistry). I thought such a character could estimate dosages in a manner similar to a street sam sizing up his opposition. Not exceedingly important to add, though, so smartlink system could be sidelined. Frankly, I also have an aversion to aspects that outshine everything else; as an amateur writer, I do my best to avoid Mary Sueness in any character (except maybe the BBEG, who's not supposed to be loved or admired anyways, and eats babies and shoots at Santa Claus with ack ack emplacements, and once took the character's mothers out to a nice steak dinner and never call them again!!). However, there is a decided difference between being a Mary Sue and having a unique flair. As far as it being a discontinued Ares prototype, PLEASE!! As if somebody as low-brow as a trip-A could create sufficient armament! (just kidding!) I'd be thinking more Sader Krupp or an independent design.

So, let's check the stats it'd have via stun baton:

Injection Tonfa
Doses: 10; Reach: --; Dmg: (Str/2 +1)P + toxin injection(varies); AP: --; Injection Head AP: -half; Availability: GM discretion; Cost: 3500(?)

Price should be good (more expensive then any other melee weapons short of cyberware and rifles), and usefulness shifts based on the situation.

To the best of my knowledge all the clubs do either STR/2+x damage or xS(e) damage. Likewise ammo does normal damage, electrical damage, or drug/toxin. I can't think of any that does two types of damage.

You're proposing a weapon that does two types of full damage on each hit plus an -half AP bonus like SnS. It's as if you made injection rounds that also did all the damage of regular ammo, the AP penetration of SnS and a full drug/toxin effect.

You may be trying to propose a weapon that can be used two different ways, much like a gun with Additional Clip. If so, I don't recall that being something a Stun Baton can do.

More like a gun with an underbarrel weapon mount. I do agree though, you should be doing one type of damage or the other, but never both. Just like how you can't punch and shock someone at the same time with shock gloves.

Edit: Actually, that is exactly what this weapon is like, shock gloves.

Yeah, swap "+" to "or" and it sounds interesting.

To put this in perspective, let's say you stabbed a person in the face with a standard needle, and injected some arsenic into his skull. Would that do Str/2 + x dmg, or Arsenic toxic damage? Both. There is one injection area on the tonfa, hidden in the part that covers the hand and will generally be used as the main striking point in a standard punching motion. It need not be a single, long, noticible needle that could break easily, so much as a cluster of needles hidden in the pressure-sensitive striking area to pop into the unwitting target, spray happy juice, crazy juice, or bye-bye juice into their body, and then retract for sterilization. The concept and functionality are by no means unreasonable, and while a functional model could be made today that would potentially lose it's 'injection function' after a handful of solid whacks against a wall, cyberware with similar functionality and a higher tech requirement for standard production models that can be beaten against a wall all day without losing that same functionality, manual dexterity, and a functioning nervous system already exist in 2072.

Is it an odd idea? Sure.
Will it always be useful? Much less often than a 200 nuyen gun.
Is there precedent for its development, if not existence? Totally.

The tonfa will not always be injecting when striking, as you can hit with just about any part of it in the course of a fight. When striking with one specific part in one specific way (thrust), you'd check for injection (based on the standard damage done against any armor worn). Needles break on a glitched injection attempt.

So, I can stab or cut you with a knife laced with poison and thereby do 2 types of damage. Or I can poke you with the punching end of the tonfa and, like the knife's entire blade, do two types of damage. It's not like I'm asking for laser guns (which exist), or beer nipples (which also exist, and would lead me to be the laziest runner on the planet if I were allowed them). I'm not asking for gills, mind control, sex bots, fireballs from my nose and lightening bolts from... well, you get the picture. Many people can rightly complain about so many overpowered items in Shadowrun already. This doesn't even compare to pre-existing game-breakers, and is easily identified as a weapon due to it's visible design (tonfa).

Edit:


That makes sense and would be acceptable. However, I do stand by my knife analogy. It doesn't immediately do the poison damage, but it adds the poison to the target.

No. Logic has no place, you don't get stacking damage in SR4. God forbid we have Missile Master adepts throwing poison-coated grenade bolos with monofilament taser strands, possessed by Energy Aura spirits.

If you wanted gills, mind control, or sex bots, that'd be fine. Those are all in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Beer nipples are also in game, but I'm not allowed THOSE :pout:

edit: btw, monfilament would be horrible for those bolos. They'd never get to apply their poison and the taser strand damage would be negligible! You should have spiked-orichalcum and uranium-nanite-bolo-flashbangs. They allow ranged trip/entaglement, physical damage, bypass damage immunity of spirits, melt faces, and blind people so they're disoriented while they're being infiltrated like a tail-chaser mission objective!

What you want is a three headed monofilament bolo. Each head has shock glove technology on it to allow it 3 6(e)S shock attacks (on top of the monofilament damage), then each head is actually a grenade that explodes once the shock charges have gone off, giving three grenade hits at point blank. Then the shrapnel of the grenade has all been pre-coated in toxins, giving 3 toxin attacks. Then each head was possessed by a different spirit, giving three energy aura attacks. They were all holding action so they also all do engulf attacks (or some other attack).

Oh, and don't forget to add some spikes to the head and have it be thrown by a throwing weapons adept. And while we're at it, those spikes are also there for injecting another dose of toxin per head.

Is this extreme? Yes. Do I have one? No, I have three.

The point is that this is what happens if you start allowing things to add. The argument for tonfa + toxin damage is the same one as shock gloves doing punching + shock damage, or stun batons doing whack + shock damage.

I mean why not have a hidden blade instead of a needle for your tonfa? Then you'd do Tonfa + blade + toxin. And why not electrify the striking portion for Tonfa + blade + toxin + electric?

Stacking damage simply isn't allowed in SR and that's all there is to it. Is it always logical? No, but it is there to try and preserve some game balance.

Actually, my + toxin was intended to mean that when the attack was successful, you apply the toxin as an injection. The toxin does it's own damage. It's not like somebody has to continually sneeze at you for you to continue having the cold after initial infection. If you stab somebody with a knife that has AIDS on it, you get knife damage and you get AIDS (pending resistance checks). The fact that you then have AIDS does not excuse the fact that you were stabbed. I'm not asking for AIDS-Knife, I'm asking for a sturdier version of 1980s+ technology in weaponized form. The fact that you're the new home of whatever inconsiderate chemical I loaded into the tonfa doesn't change the fact that a blunt instrument may have broken your bone or bruised a kidney.

Diseases are different from toxins. Logic is not allowed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Diseases are effectively similar to toxins for use in the example. AIDS Knife, according to RAW and RAI does dmg + infection, for decidedly less sophistication than my idea. I do plan on running the concept (injection tonfa, not AIDS Knife) by my GM next time I see him, though irl drama has invaded his life recently so it may be a while.

And the fact that my gloves emit an electric shock doesn't change the fact that I just punched you in the face.... and yet it does by SR rules.

Like I said damage doesn't stack. An attack gets one form of damage and one form of damage only. So in this case it would either get to inject someone with a toxin or break a bone with your tonfa, but not both at the same time.

For a more direct comparison, the fact that you got shot with a giant arrow shouldn't change just because it injects a toxin, and yet by SR rules an injection arrow does [b]no damage[/i] of its own, despite the fact that it is still a big old arrow flying at you at high speed.

You don't get both no mater how simple or logical it seems. Like I said above, if you could stack damage, it wouldn't take long at all for people to get crazy with their weaponry.

In fairness, most of the injecty-stuff was probably designed NOT to damage the target, as if you wanted them dead you'd just shoot them rather than mess about with injection arrows and the like.

However - trying to club somebody with enough force to break bone whilst simultaneously expecting an injection needle to survive the impact and deliver its payload effectively strikes me as hopelessly optimistic. Especially through any kind of armour - you'l likely hit hard enough for them to feel the blow but if the needle is weaker than the armour (and it probably is) then all you have done is break another needle.

Now, if it were a blade coated with the toxin, then I could see that as doing the blade damage and then the toxin damage, as per CR244

Injection toxins must be injected into the target’s blood-stream. Similar to contact toxins, they may be coated on a bladed (not blunt) melee weapon and applied with a successful damage-causing melee attack.

It's not really a second type of damage I'm dealing. It's a status effect. A slap to the face with a slap patch would do Str/2 damage plus paste a slap patch. Injection darts and arrows generally do minimal bruising on top of injection.

Nope it is an either or. Not both. this has been stated time and time again in SR4A Developer Open Chats with Peter Taylor and the rest of the Line Devs. It is also in the FAQ and errata. If you have a choice of damage you only get one.

If you are going to slap a Tranq Patch on someone then you make your unarmed combat test but you do not get to damage the target, you get to plant your Tranq Patch and then THAT does its damage/effect.

Injection Darts/Arrows ONLY do Toxin/Drug damage, look it up it is right there in the damage listing of the arrow/darts, they do not get the normal damage an arrow would inflict.

Anything else is a House Rule. Sorry Rubic

alrighty, understood. And by minimal bruising I was referring to something akin to "ow, my shins" type bruising, negligible. Tranq darts/arrows usually use the kinetic force of impact to drive the internal plungers. But apparently my analogy, AIDS Knife, breaks that rule. Maybe I'll build a character around that concept (Immunity: AIDS, Carrier: AIDS, Blades skill) too.

Ask longbowrocks to help you with that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You'll find it's tough to get combat-useful diseases; like I said, they're *not* the same as toxins. You could just *be* a ghoul and use your bite…

If you used knife+toxins, I'd rule that you were making a 'toxin delivery' attack (parallel to shock gloves, etc.). No logic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

actually, a small amount of digging has found me justified!!

From the German Arsenal 2070: INJECTION KNIFE!!

does Str/2+1 damage and, on a successful hit, delivers toxin! Only one dose loaded at a time, though. Toxin delivery is considered separate from the damage. Still, get 10 of those for 2 BP and have change to spare for a bandoleer, a pastry and a soycaf. I'd even be able to spend points on Blade skill rather than exotic weapons.

The prosecution would like to introduce the replies on this page as evidence that no, you don't.

Damn, just wanted to bring this up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Of course there is the same problem as with Gel Rounds, you might just roll too well and make the toxin delivery somewhat pointless...

Yep, Capsule Rounds with a successful Damaging Toxin Delivery are sometimes very, very Lethal...

Stupid German versions of books, messing things up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can see how that only opens the slippery slope, though.