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Rubic
I found one piece of modern-day equipment vastly missing from all of the 4e Shadowrun material, both books and online. That is injection guns. Whenever I look for such a device statted, I find only Narcojet. Now, to make sure no misunderstanding occurs, I do not mean ranged injections, I do not mean a gun that shoots syringes or darts. I refer to the cattle-injection type devices, used for an assembly-line type injection.

My personal intention for such a device, I will admit, is for a PC weapon idea: Tonfa with a smartlinked injection device to deliver pre-made doses of debilitating drugs/poisons. The possibility of overdose would be present, yes, but that's more or less working as intended (it's a weapon after all). By 2072, they could have easily made such injectors self-sterilizing within a certain capacity (i.e. every 10-20 injections requires a refill of sterilizers). I understand the utility and pervasiveness of slap-patches, and the modern-day access to sterile syringes for such common maladies as diabetes. However, would such technology really have vanished or been impossible to implement and weaponize to any degree when runners are resourceful and quirky, and even a medkit could provide the base materials for an armorer to install?
Yerameyahu
Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. smile.gif Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.
Rubic
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 11 2011, 12:06 AM) *
Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. smile.gif Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.

You neglect the military's reliance on outdated tech that they only just purchased a decade or more ago and have kept in storage while they exhausted their current supply of more-outdated tech/drugs.

Besides, injection vector is one of the more reliable (barring dermal plating) methods of ensuring the minimum desired toxicity reaches the blood. There are many protections against inhalation and contact vector poisons, and ingestion just requires careful choice of food and drink, and not trusting any that's been out of your sight for any length of time. Today, most chemically sealed suits are decidedly not puncture-proof, which would likely carry over to 2070.

I'm most confused how to introduce such an idea per mechanics and cost. Mechanically, the injector itself would be rather easy to pull off, but the tonfa would require durability, DV, number of shots (not sure how potent each mL of drugs are), etc. Armor Pen needles would definitely go into it in case of troll.

Understandably, the more often a schtick is used, the more likely people will develop and employ countermeasures. However, having several methods of delivering toxins/nanites/bleach/other and keeping things fresh can easily make for a nasty surprise for any who don't expect it. A mix of Bliss and Zen could easily disable quite a few opponents in a minimum of hits.
suoq
I'm still trying to figure out why you want it in a Tonfa and why you care if it's sterile.

In the long run, just have the player and GM sit down and decide yes or no, a price, and possibly a reliability factor if the thing is homemade. (Might as well take Signature while you're at it. I'm pretty sure someone injecting people with a Tonfa will stand out as unusual. That will help pay for the Exotic Melee Weapon skill.)
Ghost_in_the_System
QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 11 2011, 12:12 AM) *
I'm still trying to figure out why you want it in a Tonfa and why you care if it's sterile.

In the long run, just have the player and GM sit down and decide yes or no, a price, and possibly a reliability factor if the thing is homemade. (Might as well take Signature while you're at it. I'm pretty sure someone injecting people with a Tonfa will stand out as unusual. That will help pay for the Exotic Melee Weapon skill.)

Because you wouldn't want them to get an infection, obviously.

I figure they'd use the same rules as the various ranged injection weapons (which, as I recall are basically if you hit someone they're injected period) except they'd be used in melee and would likely require the exotic weapon skill to use. I'm guessing 10ish does per reload.

I'm not entirely sure what the function of the Tonfa is either. Are you hoping to use the Tonfa regularly and it grows spines when you hit someone? Or is it just a concealment for the injector? Or what exactly the thought line is. Some clarification here would be great.

Edit: I could also imagine them being used in the medical world for quick injections of things like sedatives or pain killers or other very common drugs. I'd imagine the medical version would include a little side rack for carrying extra sterile needles for quick replacement.
Fortinbras
You want an auto-injector attached to a stick.
I don't think a melee weapon can be smartlinked, but other than that, go nuts.
Treat it with the same rules as a dart gun, but with a melee attack instead of a ranged one. Use the same rules for toxins as SR4a p. 254 and Arsenal p. 83.

And the more often a schtick is used, the less people laugh.
Ghost_in_the_System
Especially if it puts people on the floor like the right toxins do.
Yerameyahu
I dunno about the medical quick multi-injector, though. It's certainly possible, but I wasn't kidding about the hypospray; we have had pressure injection devices since… 2000, 2005? Obviously they have different uses than deep injections, but that's what drug research is for!
CanRay
SR4A: Page 320-321: Parashield Dart Pistol and Rifle.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 10 2011, 11:06 PM) *
Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. smile.gif Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.


What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?
Fortinbras
Whatever he can get his hands on.

Now THAT'S schtick!
CanRay
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Jun 11 2011, 01:38 AM) *
What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?

Same thing as a human. Just five times as much. nyahnyah.gif
Rubic
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 11 2011, 01:30 AM) *
Because you wouldn't want them to get an infection, obviously.

I figure they'd use the same rules as the various ranged injection weapons (which, as I recall are basically if you hit someone they're injected period) except they'd be used in melee and would likely require the exotic weapon skill to use. I'm guessing 10ish does per reload.

I'm not entirely sure what the function of the Tonfa is either. Are you hoping to use the Tonfa regularly and it grows spines when you hit someone? Or is it just a concealment for the injector? Or what exactly the thought line is. Some clarification here would be great.

Edit: I could also imagine them being used in the medical world for quick injections of things like sedatives or pain killers or other very common drugs. I'd imagine the medical version would include a little side rack for carrying extra sterile needles for quick replacement.

Tonfa are a unique weapon. T shaped design, and several sides can be used for striking surfaces, depending on the blows you wish to deliver, as well as a probably mechanical bonus to parrying. The injectors attached are more intended to be a dirty little surprise, with the option of purposely self-injecting, depending on what chems happen to be there. The smart-link system would be intended to choose a proper toxin from the reservoir, as per choosing the desired ammunition from a gun (minimal functionality is fine), as well as estimating proper dosage if I'm actually WORRIED about overdosing the target, or if I'm self- or team-injecting.
QUOTE (Fortinbras)
You want an auto-injector attached to a stick.
I don't think a melee weapon can be smartlinked, but other than that, go nuts.
Treat it with the same rules as a dart gun, but with a melee attack instead of a ranged one. Use the same rules for toxins as SR4a p. 254 and Arsenal p. 83.

And the more often a schtick is used, the less people laugh.

I like this, Fortinbras. And as for the laughing, if they laugh at it, then they're not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming at first (barring NPC omnipotence).
QUOTE
What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?

A different orderly!!
suoq
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 11 2011, 07:20 AM) *
unique weapon.... mechanical bonus to parrying....dirty little surprise...option of purposely self-injecting...smart-link system...not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming


Custom made complicated obvious weaponry with internal electronics, storage of dangerous liquids, and many precision parts that needs to withstand and, in fact deliver repeated hard impacts using a deliberately flawed (holes for needles) surface structure.

It's between you and your GM. If the GM (and the other players) want to allow it, give it the advantages, and skip the disadvantages, more power to you.
Ghost_in_the_System
Yeah, I know what a tonfa is, I just still don't know exactly how you want to use it.

Do you want spines to bristle out the length of it, or do you want a needle to come out one end or what?
Teulisch
its an interesting idea, but it sounds to me like it would work better with the blades skill. you are basically using at as spear in this case.

look at the injection arrow. it does what you want, but for archery. take the technology in use there and convert the arrow to a hand-held weapon. so now you have a stabbing weapon that injects a toxin or drug.
KarmaInferno
Now I want to stat up an NPC opponent that has very obvious armor piercing injectors on his fingers.

Just to weird out and disturb players. It's one thing if a guy is trying to kill you. It's entirely another thing if he's trying to stick you with a bunch of needles.




-k
suoq
"Pinhead from Hellraiser is headbutting you. What do you do?"
Stahlseele
give him a lobotomy with his own pricks . .
CanRay
Maybe something like a Bang Stick used for Shark Hunting?
Fortinbras
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 11 2011, 07:20 AM) *
I like this, Fortinbras. And as for the laughing, if they laugh at it, then they're not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming at first (barring NPC omnipotence).

O brother....
A stick is a long piece of wood that falls off a tree.
Schtick is an old, Yiddish Vaudeville term that means your comedy set, or the type of humor you use. As in "The clown always use his pie-in-the-face schtick!"
redwulf25
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 11 2011, 03:08 AM) *
Same thing as a human. Just five times as much. nyahnyah.gif


I was just thinking you'd need something like what the OP is describing just to get through troll hide.
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 11 2011, 02:34 PM) *
Now I want to stat up an NPC opponent that has very obvious armor piercing injectors on his fingers.

Just to weird out and disturb players. It's one thing if a guy is trying to kill you. It's entirely another thing if he's trying to stick you with a bunch of needles.


-k


Sounds like a character I deseigned for the Underground RPG - a genetically engineered "perfect field medic" who had armour-shredding, anaesthetic-injecting, razor sharp claws for conducting on-the-spot field surgery.

(Also had 2 heads and 4 arms, to tend to 2 casualties at once...)
CanRay
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Jun 11 2011, 01:35 PM) *
I was just thinking you'd need something like what the OP is describing just to get through troll hide.

A needle the same size as one for a human. Just five times the size. With a Monowire tip.

Dikoted.
Rubic
A lot of good replies here. To clear a few items up, I was thinking something similar to the injection arrow, rather than spiked tonfa (which would reduce the usability of the weapon as it's core design). I do understand that the weapon would be exposed to repeated trauma. In my defense, Cyberware is at least as sensitive, if not more so, copes with the SAME degree of trauma, and can offer many of the same options (cyberspurs laced with toxins, injecting finger claws, toxin/drug reservoirs). considering less functionality is used, the bulk be kept rather low, and materials such as plasteel and alloys could provide weight-specifications and resilience for proper function.

And with that post about the injection claws NPC, I now am tempted to swap a few flaws out for Phobia: Needles.
suoq
As far as I'm concerned, if you want your character to have in his possession the only working prototype of the never mass produced Ares Injection Tonfa (for use in detainment facilities), go for it. It's not my table. But it's the kind of item that, if I run across it in a book or story, causes me to put down the papers and move on to the next one.

Sometimes a writer makes something they love outshine everything else like it. In Shadowrun Krav Maga makes me not even want to use Martial Arts. If your auto injecting tonfa was balanced with everything else (works like a Stun Baton that delivers injection darts instead of electricity), I'd wholeheartedly cheer for it. That sounds like something good to add. Heck, it sounds great. But once it gets the bonus to parrying, the ability to swap ammo using the smartlink (encouraging self injection before combat), up to twice as much ammo as the Stun Baton, and some bonus to attack because people "aren't likely to defend effectively", it loses all the attraction for me.
CanRay
Bah, coddle the inmates why don't you! Sounds like a Horizon thing to do.

No, Ares would have an even more powerful Tazer Baton for ensuring that there's no troubles whatsoever in their Rehabilitation and Retraining Work Camps, commonly and more accurately called "Gulags" on the street. nyahnyah.gif
suoq
Ah, good old Tazer Batons. I miss those. So much nicer than when they started "misinserting" cranial bombs and calling them "penile implants".
Rubic
QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 11 2011, 08:05 PM) *
As far as I'm concerned, if you want your character to have in his possession the only working prototype of the never mass produced Ares Injection Tonfa (for use in detainment facilities), go for it. It's not my table. But it's the kind of item that, if I run across it in a book or story, causes me to put down the papers and move on to the next one.

Sometimes a writer makes something they love outshine everything else like it. In Shadowrun Krav Maga makes me not even want to use Martial Arts. If your auto injecting tonfa was balanced with everything else (works like a Stun Baton that delivers injection darts instead of electricity), I'd wholeheartedly cheer for it. That sounds like something good to add. Heck, it sounds great. But once it gets the bonus to parrying, the ability to swap ammo using the smartlink (encouraging self injection before combat), up to twice as much ammo as the Stun Baton, and some bonus to attack because people "aren't likely to defend effectively", it loses all the attraction for me.

AFAIK, Tonfa are an exotic weapon, and balancing it with stats similar to the stun baton sounds like a solid concept. Parrying bonus would be a +1, paid for by requiring the exotic proficiency. Smartlink system was mostly intended due to character's medic capacity (some biotech sg and chemistry). I thought such a character could estimate dosages in a manner similar to a street sam sizing up his opposition. Not exceedingly important to add, though, so smartlink system could be sidelined. Frankly, I also have an aversion to aspects that outshine everything else; as an amateur writer, I do my best to avoid Mary Sueness in any character (except maybe the BBEG, who's not supposed to be loved or admired anyways, and eats babies and shoots at Santa Claus with ack ack emplacements, and once took the character's mothers out to a nice steak dinner and never call them again!!). However, there is a decided difference between being a Mary Sue and having a unique flair. As far as it being a discontinued Ares prototype, PLEASE!! As if somebody as low-brow as a trip-A could create sufficient armament! (just kidding!) I'd be thinking more Sader Krupp or an independent design.

So, let's check the stats it'd have via stun baton:

Injection Tonfa
Doses: 10; Reach: --; Dmg: (Str/2 +1)P + toxin injection(varies); AP: --; Injection Head AP: -half; Availability: GM discretion; Cost: 3500(?)

Price should be good (more expensive then any other melee weapons short of cyberware and rifles), and usefulness shifts based on the situation.
suoq
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 11 2011, 08:34 PM) *
Injection Tonfa
Doses: 10; Reach: --; Dmg: (Str/2 +1)P + toxin injection(varies); AP: --; Injection Head AP: -half; Availability: GM discretion; Cost: 3500(?)

To the best of my knowledge all the clubs do either STR/2+x damage or xS(e) damage. Likewise ammo does normal damage, electrical damage, or drug/toxin. I can't think of any that does two types of damage.

You're proposing a weapon that does two types of full damage on each hit plus an -half AP bonus like SnS. It's as if you made injection rounds that also did all the damage of regular ammo, the AP penetration of SnS and a full drug/toxin effect.

You may be trying to propose a weapon that can be used two different ways, much like a gun with Additional Clip. If so, I don't recall that being something a Stun Baton can do.
Ghost_in_the_System
More like a gun with an underbarrel weapon mount. I do agree though, you should be doing one type of damage or the other, but never both. Just like how you can't punch and shock someone at the same time with shock gloves.

Edit: Actually, that is exactly what this weapon is like, shock gloves.
redwulf25
Yeah, swap "+" to "or" and it sounds interesting.
Rubic
To put this in perspective, let's say you stabbed a person in the face with a standard needle, and injected some arsenic into his skull. Would that do Str/2 + x dmg, or Arsenic toxic damage? Both. There is one injection area on the tonfa, hidden in the part that covers the hand and will generally be used as the main striking point in a standard punching motion. It need not be a single, long, noticible needle that could break easily, so much as a cluster of needles hidden in the pressure-sensitive striking area to pop into the unwitting target, spray happy juice, crazy juice, or bye-bye juice into their body, and then retract for sterilization. The concept and functionality are by no means unreasonable, and while a functional model could be made today that would potentially lose it's 'injection function' after a handful of solid whacks against a wall, cyberware with similar functionality and a higher tech requirement for standard production models that can be beaten against a wall all day without losing that same functionality, manual dexterity, and a functioning nervous system already exist in 2072.

Is it an odd idea? Sure.
Will it always be useful? Much less often than a 200 nuyen gun.
Is there precedent for its development, if not existence? Totally.

The tonfa will not always be injecting when striking, as you can hit with just about any part of it in the course of a fight. When striking with one specific part in one specific way (thrust), you'd check for injection (based on the standard damage done against any armor worn). Needles break on a glitched injection attempt.

So, I can stab or cut you with a knife laced with poison and thereby do 2 types of damage. Or I can poke you with the punching end of the tonfa and, like the knife's entire blade, do two types of damage. It's not like I'm asking for laser guns (which exist), or beer nipples (which also exist, and would lead me to be the laziest runner on the planet if I were allowed them). I'm not asking for gills, mind control, sex bots, fireballs from my nose and lightening bolts from... well, you get the picture. Many people can rightly complain about so many overpowered items in Shadowrun already. This doesn't even compare to pre-existing game-breakers, and is easily identified as a weapon due to it's visible design (tonfa).

Edit:

QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 11 2011, 10:38 PM) *
More like a gun with an underbarrel weapon mount. I do agree though, you should be doing one type of damage or the other, but never both. Just like how you can't punch and shock someone at the same time with shock gloves.

Edit: Actually, that is exactly what this weapon is like, shock gloves.

That makes sense and would be acceptable. However, I do stand by my knife analogy. It doesn't immediately do the poison damage, but it adds the poison to the target.
Yerameyahu
No. Logic has no place, you don't get stacking damage in SR4. God forbid we have Missile Master adepts throwing poison-coated grenade bolos with monofilament taser strands, possessed by Energy Aura spirits.

If you wanted gills, mind control, or sex bots, that'd be fine. Those are all in the game. smile.gif
Rubic
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 11 2011, 10:53 PM) *
No. Logic has no place, you don't get stacking damage in SR4. God forbid we have Missile Master adepts throwing poison-coated grenades bolos with monofilament taser strands, possessed by Energy Aura spirits.

If you wanted gills, mind control, or sex bots, that'd be fine. Those are all in the game. smile.gif

Beer nipples are also in game, but I'm not allowed THOSE :pout:

edit: btw, monfilament would be horrible for those bolos. They'd never get to apply their poison and the taser strand damage would be negligible! You should have spiked-orichalcum and uranium-nanite-bolo-flashbangs. They allow ranged trip/entaglement, physical damage, bypass damage immunity of spirits, melt faces, and blind people so they're disoriented while they're being infiltrated like a tail-chaser mission objective!
Ghost_in_the_System
What you want is a three headed monofilament bolo. Each head has shock glove technology on it to allow it 3 6(e)S shock attacks (on top of the monofilament damage), then each head is actually a grenade that explodes once the shock charges have gone off, giving three grenade hits at point blank. Then the shrapnel of the grenade has all been pre-coated in toxins, giving 3 toxin attacks. Then each head was possessed by a different spirit, giving three energy aura attacks. They were all holding action so they also all do engulf attacks (or some other attack).

Oh, and don't forget to add some spikes to the head and have it be thrown by a throwing weapons adept. And while we're at it, those spikes are also there for injecting another dose of toxin per head.

Is this extreme? Yes. Do I have one? No, I have three.

The point is that this is what happens if you start allowing things to add. The argument for tonfa + toxin damage is the same one as shock gloves doing punching + shock damage, or stun batons doing whack + shock damage.

I mean why not have a hidden blade instead of a needle for your tonfa? Then you'd do Tonfa + blade + toxin. And why not electrify the striking portion for Tonfa + blade + toxin + electric?

Stacking damage simply isn't allowed in SR and that's all there is to it. Is it always logical? No, but it is there to try and preserve some game balance.
Rubic
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 11 2011, 11:41 PM) *
What you want is a three headed monofilament bolo. Each head has shock glove technology on it to allow it 3 6(e)S shock attacks (on top of the monofilament damage), then each head is actually a grenade that explodes once the shock charges have gone off, giving three grenade hits at point blank. Then the shrapnel of the grenade has all been pre-coated in toxins, giving 3 toxin attacks. Then each head was possessed by a different spirit, giving three energy aura attacks. They were all holding action so they also all do engulf attacks (or some other attack).

Oh, and don't forget to add some spikes to the head and have it be thrown by a throwing weapons adept. And while we're at it, those spikes are also there for injecting another dose of toxin per head.

Is this extreme? Yes. Do I have one? No, I have three.

The point is that this is what happens if you start allowing things to add. The argument for tonfa + toxin damage is the same one as shock gloves doing punching + shock damage, or stun batons doing whack + shock damage.

I mean why not have a hidden blade instead of a needle for your tonfa? Then you'd do Tonfa + blade + toxin. And why not electrify the striking portion for Tonfa + blade + toxin + electric?

Stacking damage simply isn't allowed in SR and that's all there is to it. Is it always logical? No, but it is there to try and preserve some game balance.

Actually, my + toxin was intended to mean that when the attack was successful, you apply the toxin as an injection. The toxin does it's own damage. It's not like somebody has to continually sneeze at you for you to continue having the cold after initial infection. If you stab somebody with a knife that has AIDS on it, you get knife damage and you get AIDS (pending resistance checks). The fact that you then have AIDS does not excuse the fact that you were stabbed. I'm not asking for AIDS-Knife, I'm asking for a sturdier version of 1980s+ technology in weaponized form. The fact that you're the new home of whatever inconsiderate chemical I loaded into the tonfa doesn't change the fact that a blunt instrument may have broken your bone or bruised a kidney.
Yerameyahu
Diseases are different from toxins. Logic is not allowed. smile.gif
Rubic
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 12 2011, 12:49 AM) *
Diseases are different from toxins. Logic is not allowed. smile.gif


QUOTE (Shadowrun: Augmentation p. 129)
Pathogens, diseases, and other degenerative conditions use
similar rules to toxins (see pp. 244–245, SR4) in how they react to
the body, with the difference that the foreign agent has the capability
to grow and increase the degree of infection over time.

Diseases are effectively similar to toxins for use in the example. AIDS Knife, according to RAW and RAI does dmg + infection, for decidedly less sophistication than my idea. I do plan on running the concept (injection tonfa, not AIDS Knife) by my GM next time I see him, though irl drama has invaded his life recently so it may be a while.
Ghost_in_the_System
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 11 2011, 11:29 PM) *
The fact that you're the new home of whatever inconsiderate chemical I loaded into the tonfa doesn't change the fact that a blunt instrument may have broken your bone or bruised a kidney.

And the fact that my gloves emit an electric shock doesn't change the fact that I just punched you in the face.... and yet it does by SR rules.

Like I said damage doesn't stack. An attack gets one form of damage and one form of damage only. So in this case it would either get to inject someone with a toxin or break a bone with your tonfa, but not both at the same time.

For a more direct comparison, the fact that you got shot with a giant arrow shouldn't change just because it injects a toxin, and yet by SR rules an injection arrow does [b]no damage[/i] of its own, despite the fact that it is still a big old arrow flying at you at high speed.

You don't get both no mater how simple or logical it seems. Like I said above, if you could stack damage, it wouldn't take long at all for people to get crazy with their weaponry.
Mayhem_2006
In fairness, most of the injecty-stuff was probably designed NOT to damage the target, as if you wanted them dead you'd just shoot them rather than mess about with injection arrows and the like.

However - trying to club somebody with enough force to break bone whilst simultaneously expecting an injection needle to survive the impact and deliver its payload effectively strikes me as hopelessly optimistic. Especially through any kind of armour - you'l likely hit hard enough for them to feel the blow but if the needle is weaker than the armour (and it probably is) then all you have done is break another needle.

Now, if it were a blade coated with the toxin, then I could see that as doing the blade damage and then the toxin damage, as per CR244

Injection toxins must be injected into the target’s blood-stream. Similar to contact toxins, they may be coated on a bladed (not blunt) melee weapon and applied with a successful damage-causing melee attack.
Rubic
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ Jun 12 2011, 01:29 AM) *
And the fact that my gloves emit an electric shock doesn't change the fact that I just punched you in the face.... and yet it does by SR rules.

Like I said damage doesn't stack. An attack gets one form of damage and one form of damage only. So in this case it would either get to inject someone with a toxin or break a bone with your tonfa, but not both at the same time.

For a more direct comparison, the fact that you got shot with a giant arrow shouldn't change just because it injects a toxin, and yet by SR rules an injection arrow does [b]no damage[/i] of its own, despite the fact that it is still a big old arrow flying at you at high speed.

You don't get both no mater how simple or logical it seems. Like I said above, if you could stack damage, it wouldn't take long at all for people to get crazy with their weaponry.


It's not really a second type of damage I'm dealing. It's a status effect. A slap to the face with a slap patch would do Str/2 damage plus paste a slap patch. Injection darts and arrows generally do minimal bruising on top of injection.
Magus
Nope it is an either or. Not both. this has been stated time and time again in SR4A Developer Open Chats with Peter Taylor and the rest of the Line Devs. It is also in the FAQ and errata. If you have a choice of damage you only get one.

If you are going to slap a Tranq Patch on someone then you make your unarmed combat test but you do not get to damage the target, you get to plant your Tranq Patch and then THAT does its damage/effect.

Injection Darts/Arrows ONLY do Toxin/Drug damage, look it up it is right there in the damage listing of the arrow/darts, they do not get the normal damage an arrow would inflict.

Anything else is a House Rule. Sorry Rubic
Rubic
QUOTE (Magus @ Jun 12 2011, 02:06 AM) *
Nope it is an either or. Not both. this has been stated time and time again in SR4A Developer Open Chats with Peter Taylor and the rest of the Line Devs. It is also in the FAQ and errata. If you have a choice of damage you only get one.

If you are going to slap a Tranq Patch on someone then you make your unarmed combat test but you do not get to damage the target, you get to plant your Tranq Patch and then THAT does its damage/effect.

Injection Darts/Arrows ONLY do Toxin/Drug damage, look it up it is right there in the damage listing of the arrow/darts, they do not get the normal damage an arrow would inflict.

Anything else is a House Rule. Sorry Rubic

alrighty, understood. And by minimal bruising I was referring to something akin to "ow, my shins" type bruising, negligible. Tranq darts/arrows usually use the kinetic force of impact to drive the internal plungers. But apparently my analogy, AIDS Knife, breaks that rule. Maybe I'll build a character around that concept (Immunity: AIDS, Carrier: AIDS, Blades skill) too.
Yerameyahu
Ask longbowrocks to help you with that one. smile.gif You'll find it's tough to get combat-useful diseases; like I said, they're *not* the same as toxins. You could just *be* a ghoul and use your bite…

If you used knife+toxins, I'd rule that you were making a 'toxin delivery' attack (parallel to shock gloves, etc.). No logic! indifferent.gif
Rubic
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 12 2011, 09:36 AM) *
Ask longbowrocks to help you with that one. smile.gif You'll find it's tough to get combat-useful diseases; like I said, they're *not* the same as toxins. You could just *be* a ghoul and use your bite…

If you used knife+toxins, I'd rule that you were making a 'toxin delivery' attack (parallel to shock gloves, etc.). No logic! indifferent.gif

actually, a small amount of digging has found me justified!!

From the German Arsenal 2070: INJECTION KNIFE!!

does Str/2+1 damage and, on a successful hit, delivers toxin! Only one dose loaded at a time, though. Toxin delivery is considered separate from the damage. Still, get 10 of those for 2 BP and have change to spare for a bandoleer, a pastry and a soycaf. I'd even be able to spend points on Blade skill rather than exotic weapons.
suoq
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 11 2011, 08:34 PM) *
Frankly, I also have an aversion to aspects that outshine everything else

The prosecution would like to introduce the replies on this page as evidence that no, you don't.
Sengir
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 12 2011, 03:14 PM) *
actually, a small amount of digging has found me justified!!

From the German Arsenal 2070: INJECTION KNIFE!!

does Str/2+1 damage and, on a successful hit, delivers toxin! Only one dose loaded at a time, though. Toxin delivery is considered separate from the damage. Still, get 10 of those for 2 BP and have change to spare for a bandoleer, a pastry and a soycaf. I'd even be able to spend points on Blade skill rather than exotic weapons.


Damn, just wanted to bring this up biggrin.gif

Of course there is the same problem as with Gel Rounds, you might just roll too well and make the toxin delivery somewhat pointless...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 12 2011, 08:44 AM) *
Damn, just wanted to bring this up biggrin.gif

Of course there is the same problem as with Gel Rounds, you might just roll too well and make the toxin delivery somewhat pointless...



Yep, Capsule Rounds with a successful Damaging Toxin Delivery are sometimes very, very Lethal...
Yerameyahu
Stupid German versions of books, messing things up. smile.gif You can see how that only opens the slippery slope, though.
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